Lifer

My Feedback: (1)

Mr. Aldrich,


Any relatives from your family named "George?"

jdhughen

My Feedback: (1)

The GWS model is always ON and works like a "stabilizer". it will go into action to correct for sudden changes in yaw that is not input by you. besides engine out it will also help with crosswind gust on landings etc. The higher priced models will allow you to control them (rate, function, and on off, as long as you have the extra channels to spare). most of them have a "heading lock" mode which, if properly used, can assist in arrow straight take-offs (some claim to use it on landings also, but it have not). It's like Norman said, pick one out and figure it out as you go. there is lots of info on this thread about using one. I have a 401 in my b-25, but recently but one of the lower priced piezo models in a spit that was giving me fits on take-offs. There are folks out there that will frown on their use, but I'm totally sold on them. I put too much time and money into my models these days not to take advantage of any technology that helps keep them safely in the air. my $.02

Joel

norm

I agree with you Joel and dave and good detailing of the answers. but all in all having the gyro in your hands is like they say :
a picture is worth a thousand words

Normand

RCGuy41

Hi Gregory,

My name is Brad; I have been flying the TF B-25 off and on for 2 years, what's interesting we live maybe thirty or so miles part. I have flown at PGRCs warbird flyin and do all my regular flying at the Pax aero site in St. Mary's county. When I was putting my B-25 together Norman had sujested a gyro, since I had a Futaba 401 on hand from a helicopter build (which went no where) I used the Futaba gyro in my B-25. I don't have deep pockets and the only radio I could afford in 2.4 is the DX7 spread spektrum system. Long story short; I y'd the tail servo's together then y'd the nose wheel steering servo with the rudder y harness and pluged that setup into the gyro and the gyro into my rudder channel. The GY401 gyro has a sensativity circut it was put into my aux2 channel and set on a two position toggle switch, 1st position being on or AVCS, position 2 off with zero to one sensativity set on my TX. Before I forget the Futaba GY401 gyro has a switch for digital and analog tail servo's, if you're using analog servo's ensure the gyro is set to analog, the reason if left in digital the gyro will burn your analog servo's up. Out of all the modelers posting to this thread I'm flying with the smallest engines, OS AX 46 2S with 11X8 APC props, I also like using 12X6 APC props also, they give better excelleration to the model since I fly off of grass. With 11X8 props I get approximately 10,500 rpm and with the 12X6 props I lose approximately 700 rpm. The TF B-25 is a great build but should take closer to 100-150 hr's to build it right.

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Hey guys, all good info on the gyros. I have to admit, as I was reading this thread, I wasn't completely sold on the gyro idea, so whenever I got to those posts my eyes just sort of glazed over and I didn't really pay much attention. I more or less was scanning those posts for any other ideas that were inside. After spending already 50 or 60 hours and haven't made it past the inner wing structures as of yet, my reluctance to using a gyro has faded. The more time I put into this build, not even considering the COST, I am more and more inclined to use every resourse to keep it in the air safely. Problem is, I am going to have to wait until my budget will allow me to purchase the needed gyro. I am not sure at this time if I am going ot have a free channel without actually mapping out what I have. Been lazy. I am using a 9303 converted to a 2.4 module and will be using a 9 channel rec. I'm thinking I will have enough to use a channel to switch a gyro in flight. May have to give up a moving turret up top in the future, but I wasn't really all that excited about that anyway. I do have my heart set on a bomb bay door setup though. Afterall, what is a bomber without a bomb bay? Anyway, I will work on other parts of this build and revisit the parts of the build that I'll need extra stuff for. I also just realized the servos I got for the rudders are going ot be too big. So there is another 2 things I will need. I'm still confident in a spring maiden though. It may be without the weathering or bomb bay upgrade, but that can always be done later. Again, I appreciate the suggestions as far as the gyro goes.
To answer your question "Lifer", I am not aware of any georges, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. There are a couple old family friends named George, but not blood relatives.
Hey Brad, good to meet you brother. I have been by the PAX site once while visiting the old doug's hobby years ago. Never been there to fly, I only stopped in one day to have a look. That's a pretty tight site to fly in. Have been to PGRC several times and only flew there once, back when I was first starting out. A member of PGRC took me up there and although I didn't have any problems with the site, CCRCC was very close to me (five min) and the dues were allot less. As a matter of fact, I am now the president of the club. Not that it is a big deal, I ran unopposed! lol
Anyway, we shoudl get together sometime to fly the B-25's together. Have you ever been to our site? I think it's the best thing going near here. Our new runway, three years old, is coming along nicely. Grass is filling in okay. We just seeded in the fall, so hopefully we will have a smoother surface in the spring. Also planning on rolling it then as well. Anyway, you should come up and hang out one day when the season starts. We do extend our site to visitors. I'm sure all the guys would get a kick out of the 25's. One would be a show stopper, but two? Would be something.
Anyway, ya'll have a good night and look forward to keeping this thing going. Greg

Termites Dream

My Feedback: (11)

Greg,

my B25 is almost 2 years old with about 60 flights on it. I have the cheapo GWS gyro and it seems to work pretty well. Normand gave great installation instructions earlier in this thread. I have a JR 9 channel receiver and ran out of channels so the gyro is not switchable. It seems to keep the plane pretty straight on take off and landing. In the air, the B 25 tends to drag its tail in the turns and needs rudder input for a coordinated turn. I have never flown without the gyro so I cant tell you what its like with no gyro. You said you were flying from grass- make sure you have plenty of power, esp if you add the bomb bay. I have the OS 70FL cheap engines, robart air retracts, scale robart wheels, McDaniel glow driver, receiver and glow driver batteries (mounted in the nose) and takeoff performance is marginal. Its OK if the grass is short, but long or wet grass is an issue. You might want to consider more than 9 channels with the bomb bay/bomb drop, since you really have to have each engine on separate channels. The less Ys you have, the easier it will be to setup and adjust.
Hope this helps,
David

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Yeah, thanks david. So my question was, with the GWS, it doesn't fight you when you are inputting rudder control while in flight? I surely would like the safety of having a gyro, but spending 150.00 plus shipping for the Futaba gyro as opposed to 39.00 plus shipping is steep for me if I really don't need it. You don't notice any problems using the GWS unit then? Thanks for your input.
By the way, I am installing twin Saito 82B's. Others on this thread have said they were a good choice, including Normand. I have them set up on the twin feature on my 9303. I do like the seperate adjustment available using the twin channels. I guess when it comes time to install the bomb bay upgrade, I can always install a power plus unit which gives you the abilty to expand channels.

ronbell

Hi Greg,

I am not nearly as far along as you, in fact the stuff that I do have is all still in the boxes while I complete my planning. Partly it's because I need to save up for the rest of the electronics needed, partly because I need to complete other ongoing projects first, and mainly because my flying skills are not yet up to this aircraft so I am deliberately planning a slow build with some possible scale upgrades along the way. For example, the profile pilots and neon green interior stuff could easily be improved. Anyway, I am also using a JR 9303 9-channel system, have to have a functional bomb bay & bomb release system, and don't care about the top turret (wouldn't see it in flight anyway). As I started out on helicopters and am now transitioning into fixed wing I am pretty familiar with gyros and their capabilities/benefits so I am definitely including one. The added benefits during the take off roll alone justifies it in my book.

As I said, I am planning at the moment and here is where I am parked right now in terms of channel allocation and use:

2 channels for throttle (gives independent trims and throttle curves).
1 for ailerons
1 for elevator
1 for flaps (via a matchbox to sync the 4 servos properly)
1 for gear and on-board glow via a channel expander (glow controlled by left slider when gear is down, off when gear is up)
1 for rudders & nose steering via gyro & a matchbox to allow nosegear trimming (messy but I am out of channels and better than no trim)
1 for gyro gain control (I don't plan to use heading hold mode but want gain control for different flight phases, or to turn off all together)
1 for bomb door and bomb release, via another channel expander (I am using the Wingspan system)

A side benefit of the channel expanders and matchbox units is that they allow me to split the electrical load to a second (or third) battery so that I am not trying to run everything from the receiver pack. As I mentioned in an earlier post I will have one or two batteries running the RX and primary flight servos, and a separate one for the bomb door/release, on-board glow, gear, and flaps. I saw a buddy lose a very nice twin by deploying flaps during his turn onto final. The added electrical load caused a receiver brown out and the aircraft spun in - very sad. I took note to not repeat the mistake.

Back to gyros - I was going to go with a 'cheapie' but didn't like the lack of performance specs available for them, or the fact that many had only a manual potentiometer on them for gain adjustment. I want to know what it is going to do, plus have the ability to turn it off if I don't like what it is actually doing. Also, I strongly suspect that different gain values will prove desireable for take-off, general flying around, bombing, and landing so the ability to link the gain to the flight mode switch could be really handy. I use Futaba 401 and JR 770 gyros on my helicopters. Both seemed to be overkill for this application, and the 770 explicitely states that it should not be used in a fixed wing. I therefore compromised on the JR 370. Only time will tell if that was a good choice but I've bought it so the decision is made

I am really looking forward to tracking your progress - like you, I have read this forum from top to bottom and have a large binder of printed pages from it with lots of notes scribbled. This 'B-25 bible' is fantastic and I am indebted to all who have contributed and continue to do so.

Good luck, and we want video when you let your son loop this one!!

Ron.

Termites Dream

My Feedback: (11)

The Saitos are an excellent choice, I probably should have spent the extra $240 and got those instead. I have no complaints with the GWS gyro and I dont think the Futaba is worth the $. I think the gyro does fight against the turn, but you just add rudder and it overcomes it. If I had the gyro on a switch I would turn it off in flight and then I would know for sure the effect of the gyro, but Normand would know this 100 times better than me anyway.
Good Luck.

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Has anyone ever said model airplane is not "rocket science"? lol
Jeeze man, building this thing and doing it right is getting more and more expensive, ugh. I guess it will come down to what I can afford when the time comes to order. Likely will go with the GWS gyro, but if the funds are there, amy go with the Futaba 401. Still will have issue with another channel used to switch off futaba gyro or change gain and such. When it comes to roll out and torque effect on that, I've been taking off and fighting with right rudder from the start, so I'm not too worried about that. I do want the extra help if an engine does go out though, so if the GWS is the answer to that, or at least the helping hand, than I guess I will be satisfied with that. My mind is smoking a little with all the options and pros and cons regarding them.[]

djstar39

My Feedback: (4)

Hey Greg,

Sounds like you're travelling down a similar path. I too have a 9303 converted to 2.4. I have the Saito 82's, Wingspan bomb bay and Top Turret and even added brakes and landing lights. With all that I quickly ran out of channels and they just happened to come out with the JR 9503 and I picked up one of those. I had to decide between that and the 12 channel. What I ended up doing was using both the 9303 and the 9503! I have the bomb bay doors, bomb release, top turret and the landing lights on the 9303 and everything else on the 9503 (control surfaces, twin function for the engines, gyro gain, retracts, brakes, etc.). You could use any radio if you happen to have another and use a park flyer receiver if you so choose. I did the maiden without the Wingspan stuff and lights and added all of that in the following winter. It's a heavy bird with all those batteries but the Saitos get it done and it still feels like I have plenty of power.

It's actually kind of fun to have my buddy standing beside me as my bombadier using the 9303 radio. I fly and he bombs!

For the top turret, I do have it on a micro switch actuated by a servo but you could simply install a small switch under the wing where you wouldn't see it and turn it on before you taxi out. It runs on a simple AA battery which lasts forever. That way you're not using a channel. You could probably rig it up so that it's actuated by the retract servo so that the turret is turning when the gear is down. You probably won't see it turning in the air. Since I used the second radio I set it up for my buddy to turn it on and off but it's mostly on.

dave

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Thanks Dave, that's a great idea. I was actually going to pick up another radio to use as a buddy box for my son's trainer kit I am also going to build this winter. One question about that. Do you think it would be safe enough to use an FM on that secondary radio? It wouldn't be controlling any critical systems because the 2.4 would be doing that. Was just curious how the two systems would work together. I don't think one would cause interference for the other, would it? I guess if there is some reason why that wouldn't work, I could always pick up a used 5 or 6 channel JR DSM2 or maybe one from Horizon. I still have my FM module for the 9303 because I have a few planes flying on FM until I can convert completely to DSM, which is why I was thinking I would pick up a cheaper four channel JR Sport radio. What do you think?
Greg

djstar39

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Greg,

I'm no radio expert by any means but wouldn't think a 72mhz and a 2.4ghz would cause any issues in the same aircraft. Other more experienced folks could chime in on that. Your non-critical systems (bomb bay, top turret, etc.) would probably be on the 72mhz receiver. I have the bomb bay doors on the throttle channel so that you can open the doors at any speed or distance you want. I am using two reciever batteries with two switches hooked into separate ports on the AR9000 receiver so I have redundancy from a power perspective. I believe I have my second receiver Y'd into one of those batteries as it's really only powering a couple small servos for the turrent and landing lights and the servo that opens the bomb bay door. There is a separate battery that you will use for the bomb release system. So far it all works very well together.

I will tell you that the startup checklist for this beast is a little more complicated that any of my other birds. I use a checklist to make sure that the switches are thrown the correct way for both radios (and that the radios are on), that I air up both the retracts and the brakes, that I switch out of Heading Hold mode immediately after the gyro initializes, both engines fueled up, I start them both and check rpms throughout the range and to make sure they're in sync, shut down, top off fuel if I need to, check battery voltages, flaps set to 10%, etc. Having the switches the wrong way when powering up means gear retracting (and doors breaking off) or bombs releasing in the bomb bay etc. Ask me how I know all of this! [:@]

As others have said, I use a matchbox on the flaps and I also think I have one on the nosewheel together with the rudders and gyro so I can adjust the nosewheel independently without using an extra channel.

Your son could actually release your bombs for you!!!! That would be an awesome father / son effort!!!

dave

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Hey Dave
I think your probably right about the radios. I think the only issue may be that the McDaniels on board glow drivers could possibly cause some interference with the FM system. I have had flutter issues because of one glow driver set up before. As I said before, I am also building a kit trainer for my son to learn on, a Goldburg eagle, and I have to get a basic radio for that one so I can run a buddy box setup. I Plan on getting the JR 5 channel they offer with the included 5 channel receiver. It's only 99 bucks. If I just order an extra 5 channel receiver, I can also use the same radio for the secondary systems in the Mitchell. For starters, here is my thinking along the lines of channel allocation and keep in mind they are not in the correct channel slots. I am just numbering the amounts.

Primary receiver;

1: Throttle left
2: Throttle right
3: Ailerons
4: Elevator
5: Rudder through gyro
6: Rudder control for nose gear
7: Flaps
8: Gyro switch
9: Retracts
Second battery for redundancy and to power second (secondary systems) receiver.

Secondary receiver;

1: Bomb Bay doors
2: Bomb drop
3: Turret
4: Open
5: Open

So, with this setup, I could add landing/nav lights later on or whatever. I figure like you say, use the throttle channel to open and close the bomb bay doors. Aileron channel can be used for turret, so when it is not being turned, it will center itself back in line with the fuse. The 5 channel Spectrum radio comes with one toggle switch, so I would probably use that one for the bomb drop. Do you have the Wingspan bomb drops? Can you use an elevator or rudder channel to drop the bombs? If so, the 5th channel on the secondary radio could be used for the lights or another mod.
Anyway, this is all very interesting and I certainly am looking forward to tax refund time to order everything else I will be needing for both winter projects. I have question and it might seem elementary, but where in the heck am I suppposed to mount all this gear? I have to keep in mind balancing and honestly, I am having a hard time imagining all of these receivers, batteries, matchboxes etc. mounted behind the cockpit. I've got some pretty good size hands and I'm wondering, how the heck does it all fit and how do you secure it? I think Top Flite might have done us a solid by installing an access hatch underneath the bird that could be screwed back in place once all the install and adjustments were done. Anyway Dave, I do appreciate your help and advice. Like I said, although I do need to buy more stuff (UGH) for this project and will have to wait until tax refund shows up, I still am thinking I will have it flight ready this season. Not sure if the bomb drop and turret will make it in though. Those may end up waiting until next winter. However, I have two friends here that have offered to assist in the weathering and detailing. Our former president, Dave Fuller and an "RCScale Builders" big shot, Dave Heil. Respectively, the Daves. lol Our club has a building contest in May of every year and my plan was to unveil, if you will, this beast at the contest. A few years back, we decided to allow an ARF class since they have become such a huge part of our hobby. You definitely see far more ARF's these days than kits. Not that I am in any way more fond of ARF's, but they do lend some convenience to a guy like me raising a four year old on my own. Well, any ARF but the Mitchell. Might as well call it a kit for the time it takes to assemble it! lol Okay, I'm done rambling.
Greg
ps. does anyone have the link to the build thread RCKEN did on the Wingspan bomb bay and turret install? I can't seem to find it and he isn't writing me back.

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Can you believe this thread is 2653 posts long? Well 2654 now, lol. Can we get anyone who loves reading and organizing to go through and index this monster? Perhaps someone with an organizational OCD thing going on. LOL

djstar39

My Feedback: (4)

Greg,

Here is RCKen's link...

[link]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7700697/tm.htm[/link]

I also did one here...

[link]http://www.rcscalebuilder.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=14569&PN=2[/link]

Believe me, it all fits in there (you can just scan the pictures in those links for now and then go back and read). When you do the Bomb Bay add, you'll need to move the air tank into the bomb bay. Once you cut out the bomb bay, there's plenty of room for all of the stuff you want to add. My MCD 466 onboard glows are in each nacelle.

The turret is just a small motor with a small plastic gear turning a large gear (see the pictures). It's either on or off and only goes one direction. So it really won't return to center when you turn it off (let go of the aileron stick).

BTW, you don't need to use up a channel for a second battery. You can Y the battery into any of the channels with whatever you have plugged into that channel. I don't see retracts in your channel list...

dave

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Uh, yeah my bad Dave. Noticed after you said something. As you can see, I like you will have to add an additional radio system to do anything else. Or, upgrade to a bigger radio system.

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Dave,
Okay, here is an idea. If I use a "matchbox" on flaps, it just makes setup easier but doesn't reduce number of channels used. I do plan on getting two Matchboxes, one for the flaps and one for the rudder, nose wheel. Instead of using another channel for nose gear setup, I'll just "Y" the lead out from the gyro and use the matchbox to fine tune both the surfaces of the rudder and the nose gear. My only question about that is, will the matchbox cause any problems in the functionality of the gyro? With this set up, I would be freeing a channel up in the receiver. Now I have a channel for the bomb bay doors. I just need one more channel for the bomb drop mechanism.
Here is another idea. Now I plan on using the "twin" feature of my 9303 for the throttles. But what about using another matchbox? If you used the centering trim and the end points, wouldn't you end up having a three point throttle curve? Wouldn't that be enough to keep the Saito's within eachother enough for safe flight? The way I understand it, a few hundred RPM's wont make or break the even performance of the motors. What do you think and if Normand is following, I would appreciate your input as well.
Just an idea I had. If I do matchboxes on both rudder and throttles, I free up the two channels I need for the bomb bay doors and bomb drop. Also, if in the future I decide to add the turret (not that likely), I can always use the sequencing feature you mentioned where the doors open, the bombs drop and then the doors close, all with the flick of one switch. That would free up the 9th channel for the turret, or even some other switchable mod, like lights. The whole question is, can the matchbox perform up to making twin four strokes run within a few hundred RPM's of eachother. I would also have to hazard to say both four strokes would need to be very nearly matched in they're own curve. Both of mine are brand spanking new and I plan on breaking them in exactly the same way for each.
Scratching my head and planning (plotting)
Greg

ps. I read your build thread on RCSB and you did a great job. I was thinking about doing one, one of these days. Sometimes I mod stuff that is a little unusual.

djstar39

My Feedback: (4)

Greg,

I have the matchbox on the rudder / nosewheel and gyro and it doesn't cause any problems. I did use the twin function of the 9303 because I really wanted separate dedicated control of these engines. I really like the fact that I can adjust the throttle trim independently. That way, I can start one with the other throttle absolutely closed, shut them down one at a time etc. You could use a matchbox and control it that way and it would probably be just fine. With the twin function, you can adjust the curves via the radio quickly. With a matchbox, you would have to get to the matchbox and select the channel and then adjust. Hard to do that with engines running so you would have to adjust, start and test, shut down, adjust, etc. You will also have the glow drivers Y'd in there. Haven't thought about how that would work but the glow driver would probably be downstream of the matchbox so it shouldn't be an issue.

Not trying to talk you out of it at all as it's all a matter of compromises. I've been taught that with a twin, engine reliability is an absolute must if you don't want to rekit it. Sounds like you're going to do the proper run in on an engine stand, use onboard glow, etc. to mitigate the risk of an engine out situation.

I went through the exact same thing you're going through now thinking of how I could use channel expanders, matchboxes, different combinations, etc. I also have brakes which used another channel. I knew I wanted to do the bomb bay and turret and control both of them from the radio so my solution works for me. When my buddy can't be there, another club member is always more than happy to be bombadier.

This is what I love about Winter... time to plan and ponder and build / rebuild!

cjhallman

     I was wondering if any detailed there cockpit.I purchased hanger9 B-25
     kit from dynamic balsa.Since they are close to the same size.

     With a little modification it fits quite nice.






                                                                                                                                             cjhallman

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

cjhallman,
If you check in the first pages of this thread, you will find an amazing cockpit detail by a gentleman who has since passed away. He was amazing in his craftsmanship from scratch. Check it out.

ronbell

Greg and Dave,

Happy New Year!

I would appreciate input from you both on what you think is the correct distance from the firewall to the front of the prop drive hub.  The manual says 5" but several discussions earlier in this thread suggest that something around 4-7/8" is better.

Many thanks in advance.

Ron.

gregory.aldrich1

My Feedback: (9)

Hey Ron,
happy new year to you as well. I couldn't tell you which is better and I realize there were many discussions on the subject earlier in the thread. Many of them were about how to fit certain models of engines in because of carburetor clearances. Personally, I fitted the Saito 82's 5" from the firewall as stated in the manual. I am usually one for following the manual fairly well. However, depending on your setup (engine choice), you may need to "adjust" the distance. I don't really think it makes a hill of beans difference in the end anyway. It wont make much change in CG and as long as you keep the down and away built in thrust, I would think you will be fine. However, there may be others following this thread who have differing ideas. Someone once told me in this hobby, you can ask 10 people for an opinion about modeling and you will most likely get 11. I think the distance your thrust washer is from the firewall is a pretty small thing. I would be more concerned with the level of your carburetor fuel intake nipple in relation to your fuel tank outlet, or weather or not you prefer to have your cowls straight out from the nacelles, in which case you will be needing to shift your mount to accomodate. Again, there is a discussion about that further back in the thread. Good luck building. I am stalled for lack of funding. Once I was convinced I needed glow drivers and a gyro, I halted building until I could get those parts together. Plus, I got the wrong servos for the rudders and have to buy another pair for them as well. Hitec HS82's work, but I got JR MN48's. I little too fat to fit. Oops.
Take care, Greg

ronbell

Thanks Greg,

I am also planning/scheming while I gather up the necessary parts - I know that once I start it will kill me if I have to stop part way. I don't care how long it takes (don't intend to rush) but I will want to keep plodding along. It is a little scary how much this thing is turning out to cost but I really believe it will be worth it. Like you, Christmas put a halt to parts purchasing for a little while, although Santa did bring me a sport plane to keep me sane!!

My concern on the hub distance is to ensure that I get as good a scale look as I can on the cowls without the prop being too far out. I like your approach of play around with it until I find what I think looks best.

As for servos, I am planning to use Spektrum A6020's on the elevator and nose steering, JR DS388's on the rudders, and DS821's everywhere else. Oh, almost forgot - there is also a JR791 retract servo for the bomb doors! Being originally a helicopter guy I developed a dislike for Hitec servos - they have good torque, reasonable speed, and attractive pricing, but I have found their resolution to be rather course. Each to his own but now I just stick with JR/Spektrum.

Another guy in my club has just started building the Hanger 9 B-52. He is an pure electric guy. It will be interesting to compare the two and hopefully fly side by side!!

Take care and please post any 'light bulb occurrences' that you have.

Ron.

RCGuy41

Gregory,

Hi, sorry for the lengthy delay, I would love have a formation fly by when you have your B-25 up and flying. Oh, by the way, PGRC has an annual swap meet, I believe it should go down some time next month out at their club house. If you are still out some parts you might be able to find some their on the cheap, check their website for dates and times. A real quick question, how are you doing on extentions, this bird uses alot of them.