Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

Why not simply remove the 3 hinge control surfaces and re-apply with 5 or 6 or 7 hinges?

extra 300

My Feedback: (3)

BirdofpraY,

That's a real shame, 2nd flight only!!! You didn't have time to enjoy this jet.
Looking back at the video, i have noticed that take off was somehow sudden/abrupt. Any chance, you might have scratched the horn somehow or during transport? Was the horn broken?

Dany

SAP_2000

Just want to get this right.
This the Tamjets Rafale, right?

Tamjets are usually very quick to point out that their planes are Tam-Rafale, Tam-Hornet etc. Your headline reads Fei Bao Rafale. Maybe you should change it to TamJet Rafale if it is a Tam Rafale??
I bet someone would point this out very quickly if it was the other way around....

[link=http://www.tamjets.com/rafale.php]From Tamjets web site[/link]:

Please be advised that any Rafale kit not purchased from Tamjets dealers will not have the same parts, hardwares, instruction manual or support.

djindivik

Cheers Sandor, I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas ! ! Ray

digitech

My Feedback: (10)

then would you cry if i deliver it to someone else?


i hate Xmas...

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

SAP_2000, What does it matter who sold the jet. All the parts that came with the ARF came from feibao except for the Retracts, struts, wheels and brakes.

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

extra 300, the reason for the sudden jump is due to the landing gear being so far forward of the CG that it takes alot of pressure to lift the nose up, and when it does this is the effect you get from it. Now to probably cure that if the struts was alittle longer where it sets the nose about 1 or 2 degress above wing line this may fix the problem... But I did not have it long enough to see if I could fix that.

as for scraping the ground on take off, nope that did not happen and if you look at the Rafale the horn and control surfaced are in cased in a cover, so you would think this would have given it extra protection from possible FOD damage.

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

Sandors, that is really nice of you to help your customer out with his turbine.

anything you could do for me in getting Feibao to ship me a new ARF, From what I understand they don't help no one out and it's out of the dealers pocket to do the real research and development as well as replacing customers jets. I commend you for your true customer support that you have done here for your customer.

digitech

My Feedback: (10)

Well as for faulty parts i always discuss this with FeiBao.
if you bought yours thru Tam , then you should be adressing Tam.
i have my own way of helping a customer.
if it is a returning customer like Einar i do my best to help him offcourse , better to keep him happy .
and one day he might return and buy another kit or other stuff.

for prototyping , i just advice them
we as everyday flyers can easely find small problems and make recommedations on all models.
currently i am testing (building)the MB339 for them , and it needs work.

the troubles you had , and please dont be mad
i think the damage was done on take off.
i believe a lot of rafales are sold and i did not see many die on flutter.
this is one of the reasons Fei Bao NEVER will pre glue the rudderhorns into the wings.

Sandor

SAP_2000

It matters because it's sold as a Tamjet Rafale.

Back in Febuary when you wrote the [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=5478434]thread with video of the maiden[/link] when it was flying like a tail heavy brick on steriods, it was titeled "Tam Jets Rafale Maiden Flight", so obviously it mattered to you then. Funny that the video was removed so quicly....[:-]

The BVM King Cat used to be manufactured by C-arf, but you would not call it a C-ARF King Cat, would you??

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

Well Sandor, I dont see how this could have happened on take off. No where did the wing tuch the runway, and that is clearly in the video. After TAM and I have talked about this it, is most likely due to hing failure. There is a high posibility that there could have been a bubble in the injected plastice of the hinging area. I am sure there is 0 quality control in there hinge production.

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

With the information provided, Still believe the horned pulled out first causing the flutter. At no time in the video do you actually hear or see any flutter, just the part departing; which means it happened VERY quickly at high frequency.
I have doubts the center hinge failed causing the part to depart. This is a very rigid wing, your not going to flex it enough to cause hinge failure....

JM 2C

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

Todd so what you saying is that these http://www.tamjets.com/original/prod...roducts_id=123 horns pulled out. I scuffed them and made the holes alittle larger for the hysol to flow through them, as you can see in the picture, and I also added a very nice filet as well. This is not something new to me to do.

I have about 20 flights on my Storm and they have not pulled out.

tamjets

My Feedback: (2)

We had flew 4 different Rafale. The original proto-type to the lastest one we have in the shop.
All the kit we flew have stock hinge from Fei Bao. We did change some of the accessories such as control horn, linkage, push rod, servo L bracket and our heady duty gear.
We log in many of flights with Rafale before it was sold to the public by us. Of course David crash it happen so fast and hard to said what have happen.
I did take those hinges come with the kit and tested for quality. The hinges is not any better or less quality compare to other hinge.
One thing we know for sure in this case is the wing can't flex. It very very strong wing.
So there is couple possibility thing can happen here.

1. It could have one bad defected hinge.
2. The control horn could have pull off.
3. It could be the aileron had defected crack when cutting the slot for the control horn to much forward to the leading edge.

The truth answer is we don't know what happen here.

But it could be prevent in the future by doing few things.
If those haven't hinge the elevon. You could add two more hinges for each control surface.
When cut the slot for the control horn. Do not cut the slot too forward against the leading edge. This can weaken the aileron. Always leave 3/8" solid leading edge.
Do a good job gluing the control horn.


Like we said. We had many many flights between 4 different Rafale and have no issue with it. All the Rafale was fly with P-120 and doing full throttle high speed all the time.
Some have witness we did many flight at Superman last year. I even hit the runway light and tear of big junk piece of the wing. We repair overnight and flying again all weeken.
I still believe with three hinges is strong enough. But it doesn't hurt to add two more.

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

I agree with you TAM there may be many scenarios that could have happened, but it does not hurt to add two more hinges. Also this will not detour me from buying product from you. I will add 5 hinges on the next one.

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

Dave,
I am just providing an educated guess from the information provided here. Looking at the image below, it appears you cut the slot through the LE of the elevon for the control horn, weakening the structure. It looks to me as if the horn pulled out, lifting the right side glass/wood structure as it came out. This is why the glue nipple are not sheered and remain intact. With these type of control horns, especially the nylon over the carbon horns, you have to really break the gluing surface with very coarse paper or permagrit file in order for the glue to get a adequate grip on the horn. Additionally, the nylon type horns should be cleaned with acetone or denatured alcohol in order to remove any oils that can be on the surface left during the injection molding process.
It's quite possible that if you did not get a secure bond to the LE of the Elevon that was cut to install the horn, that the control surface itself developed a flex at this point further weakening the glue joint of the control horn....

Again Dave, this is by no means a shot at you or your abilities, simply an educated guess at the reason for failure.....
Todd

Vincent

My Feedback: (61)

I agree with you Todd, i see the same thing.The hinge point is also where the other side came apart, there is some meat missing on the LE in that spot too from the hinge point.

V..

jetjohn

Birdofprey,
Firstly sorry for your loss.[]
I've just finished an X-Treme Jets Rafale Kit, so have viewed this post with great interest.
Having watched the video over & over again it looks as though the inboard hinge lets go first on the Right hand wing.
The aileron leaves the jet inboard edge first.
Question what throws were you using on the ailerons.
I noticed on my kit that it was hard to get the full throws as recommended without sanding the inner face of the wing trailing edge. Without doing this the servo would stall.
Because of the high powered servos used I was very wary of the possibility of control horn pull out by servo stall rather than actual failure of horn.
I have restricted servo movement to stop overload conditions.
Once again sorry for your loss & thank you for your very posative attitude to help others.
John C

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

jetjohn, after freeze framing the video you are right the inside hinge gave away first. But you do bring up a valid question.

After I rebalanced the jet I brought it down to FLJETS to have TAM set the throws up, but I did not revisit to see if there were any binding. But as you can see it was flying wonderful for 2 min.

Also thank you for your condolence, it’s never easy to have a jet crash. But the idea here is to learn and not recreate this again. I wish great success with yours.

jetnuno

Hi

Looking at this picture it is clear that these were Tam's control horn hinges and these go almost thru all the elevon surface. These have 2 sets of holes to allow the glue joint to be better, but for this elevon depth seem to high. Feibao control horns are not so tall, thus don't go so deep in the surface. This depth has made the surface to fragile. Just another theory...Terribly sorry for your loss

Nuno

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Tam's control horns are cut to size depending on the installation - they don't need to be used at full size especially on a small / thin airfoil structure.

This thread represents one reason why I visit RCU - just about everyone is interested in learning from something... it was not a good situation but it can be used to all our benefit - and we all become better crafstman and safer RC jet pilots as a result.

Sorry for the loss!

BirdofpraY

My Feedback: (31)

BTW I did not buy this directly from TAM, I bought it from Dreamworksrc. So no matter who you buy from or where you get it makes no matter, we all get to learn from any loss and this is what makes the forums great. Well I just ordered another jet from TAM and I will keep buying from him, he is a straight up business man and does not come in here to take stabs, so I will keep supporting him.

I do plan on using 5 hinge points and they will be robart, and I will use carbon fiber horns this time. Also I want to thank tony down in miami for helping me get the parts to restore my RAM 1000. Which will most likely go back in it.

Thanks to everyone here who has put there thoughts in.

Now Lets got FLY..........

tamjets

My Feedback: (2)

David,
Thanks for your supporting our business and I'll continue my best to provide the service.

3DHELINUT

My Feedback: (3)

I have owned a SM grippen and now a Extreme Jets Rafale and the reason you are launching into the air on rotation is due to negative incidence in your landing gear. You need a taller nose strut to resolve this senerio. I have modified my nose srtut to set the fuse at +1 degree and the rafale rotates like a dream.

Sorry for you loss


Alan

Sparhawk

From the pic of the horn, it looks like the clevise is located lower than the original hole? Does this not decrease the mechancal advantage of the setup?
Just an observation.

Sorry about your loss.

Spar