Sheeting Foam Wings
03-17-2003, 03:21 PM
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Help form you experts!
I vacuum bagged my first wing this weekend with Pro-Bond. Came out fine, but there area many places where the glue pressured its way to the surface of the balsa, especially at the trailing edges where I applied a little extra.
Did I use too much glue, or is this to be expected?
Thanks, Mark
I vacuum bagged my first wing this weekend with Pro-Bond. Came out fine, but there area many places where the glue pressured its way to the surface of the balsa, especially at the trailing edges where I applied a little extra.
Did I use too much glue, or is this to be expected?
Thanks, Mark
04-18-2003, 11:40 PM
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First thing first here, don't refer to Foam Bond as Lepage's glue or whatever, because it is NOT Lepages or anybody else's, just because you think it is doesn't make it so. You have failed miserably because you didn't actually use Foam Bond, or if you did you didn't follow the instructions. If you ordered it from NWHT then it's Foam Bond, and if you followed the instructions then it worked, period. If you waited overnight, then you did it WRONG and didn't follow the instructions. If you tried to put them together wet, then you did it WRONG and you didn't follow the instructions. There's an entire section of the website dedicated to the proper use of Foam Bond. If one pays attention to those, then it's pretty hard to mess up, and IMPOSSIBLE to pull it apart.
Jimbo
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04-18-2003, 11:54 PM
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Your right ml3456
Probond DOES need water to set. Just be careful not to over do it with the water. The more water that you put on it the more it will expand. Keep the layer of adhesive thin.
Probond DOES need water to set. Just be careful not to over do it with the water. The more water that you put on it the more it will expand. Keep the layer of adhesive thin.
04-19-2003, 06:13 PM
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Sorry to upset you Jimbo, I ment no dissrespect to the product and I whole hardily accepted that I have been using the product wrong.
But for the good news, I did actually finally get the foam bond to work properly. A guy had emailed me with his technique and it worked. According to him my basement was a little to cool for the Foam Bond to set up in the time I had thought it would set up. I was WRONG when I waited about 1 hr to join my 2 pieces and I now wait almost 2 hrs, and you are right Jimbo, it is very hard(if you can) to pull apart.
But for the good news, I did actually finally get the foam bond to work properly. A guy had emailed me with his technique and it worked. According to him my basement was a little to cool for the Foam Bond to set up in the time I had thought it would set up. I was WRONG when I waited about 1 hr to join my 2 pieces and I now wait almost 2 hrs, and you are right Jimbo, it is very hard(if you can) to pull apart.
04-19-2003, 10:59 PM
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I didn't mean to come down on you so hard, sorry if I sounded so abrubt. I read my post afterward and it was a bit gruff. My apologies for that. A lot of guys do try and say it's actually this glue or that glue, and I can guarantee you it's not anything that has ever been in this industry before NWHT came out with it..
The secret with the Foam bond is not using an hour, a minute or two hours, it's waiting until it JUST goes clear. The other part of that is that the foam takes much longer to go clear than the balsa sheeting, because the balsa soaks it up and helps it dry faster than the foam. The last part of it is to make sure you've sanded the foam properly to break through the glaze left there by the cutting machines. That'll help the Foam Bond to soak into the foam much more easily. Before any of it, check out this page on the website, it should be a big help:
http://www.nwhobbytechnologies.com/foam_technology.htm
The secret with the Foam bond is not using an hour, a minute or two hours, it's waiting until it JUST goes clear. The other part of that is that the foam takes much longer to go clear than the balsa sheeting, because the balsa soaks it up and helps it dry faster than the foam. The last part of it is to make sure you've sanded the foam properly to break through the glaze left there by the cutting machines. That'll help the Foam Bond to soak into the foam much more easily. Before any of it, check out this page on the website, it should be a big help:
http://www.nwhobbytechnologies.com/foam_technology.htm
04-20-2003, 11:28 PM
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FalconWings10, I'm the webmaster for the company, and part of the deal is I get the model kits, and of course build them. That's where I gained my experience with the Foam Bond. I actually have nothing to do with the company other than that, but with all the models my involvement ended up being fairly deep anyway. The secret to these kits is getting through the first model. Once you do, the others are just variations on a theme. The body parts are already shaped, you're just sheeting and joining parts. And the other part is expecting the wait, there's often a fairly long wait for the kits to come, but they really are worth the wait. I just order it, forget about it, and when it comes I have a little party. My two favorite kits that really looked great when they arrived are the Zero, which had an unmistakable body shape even in just the foam parts, and the real surprise was the PT-19. The PT-19 fuselage is absolutely perfect, and you can see it just by taking it out of the box and laying the cowl onto it. What a looker that bird is going to be, I hate for it to be waiting three kits down the line, but I have two partials already waiting and have to finish them first. These are just too big to have too many laying around half-done. Anyway, if you have any other questions about the Foam-Bond or any other aspect of these, just ask, I'm always happy to help, and usually there is a building page that covers most commonly asked questions that I can give you a link for.
Jimbo
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04-23-2003, 08:14 PM
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DO NOT USE CONTACT CEMENT!!!
I used that crap and it ruined my wing. I live in FL and everytime the temp or humidity changes, so does the contour of my wing. I finally had to start over. I found the ultimate glue to use. Its called Southern's Sorgham. Its available at most hobby stores for around $5. You brush it on the wing and on the balsa and let it dry. Then you lay a piece of newspaper over the foam wing and position your balsa as needed. When you are done, pull the newspaper out and it is an instant inseparable bond! I wouldnt use anything else. I have to admit though that it sounds very strange letting both sides dry then sticking it together. I dont know how it works but it does!!
Mike
I used that crap and it ruined my wing. I live in FL and everytime the temp or humidity changes, so does the contour of my wing. I finally had to start over. I found the ultimate glue to use. Its called Southern's Sorgham. Its available at most hobby stores for around $5. You brush it on the wing and on the balsa and let it dry. Then you lay a piece of newspaper over the foam wing and position your balsa as needed. When you are done, pull the newspaper out and it is an instant inseparable bond! I wouldnt use anything else. I have to admit though that it sounds very strange letting both sides dry then sticking it together. I dont know how it works but it does!!
Mike
04-24-2003, 03:02 AM
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Mike,
I've used Southern's Sorghum before and what I don't like about it is that you only get ONE chance to put the sheeting on the wing. If you're wing is even slightly mis-aligned in the shuck, then. . . "shucks" (pun-intended).
I've used Southern's Sorghum before and what I don't like about it is that you only get ONE chance to put the sheeting on the wing. If you're wing is even slightly mis-aligned in the shuck, then. . . "shucks" (pun-intended).
04-24-2003, 11:30 AM
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I'm suprised this thread has not talked more about Dave Brown's Southern Sorghum. I've used it for years with no problems at all. Being a contact cement, you do only get one chance, but by making the skins a little overlarge, I've never had a major mistake. Using waxed paper between the core and skins helps too. It works great, is lighter than epoxy and you can keep building in 30-40 minutes. The only thing I do is mix a little blue latex paint in it - a couple of drops - to color it so you can see better where it's spread. The expanding aspect of the polyurethane glue worries me - but there are several methods, inlcuding epoxy, which obviously work. I've never had a delam problem in the hot sun, but your mileage may vary. On a project, I'll usually use Sorghum for the main skins and 5 min epoxy for leading and trailing edges, wingtip blocks, etc. I use titebond or yellow carpenter's glue to glue my wing sheeting together - solid and sands well.
04-24-2003, 02:12 PM
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I havent found anything better than epoxy and vacumme bagging
I used a 40.00 hand held manual operated vacumme pump you can buy them at your loacal car parts store.
I ran across an article on the net that instructed me on how to use these pumps. The rest of the items you need can be found at your local hardwares store. If anyone is intrested I can try to dig up the article again and post the url.
I used a 40.00 hand held manual operated vacumme pump you can buy them at your loacal car parts store.
I ran across an article on the net that instructed me on how to use these pumps. The rest of the items you need can be found at your local hardwares store. If anyone is intrested I can try to dig up the article again and post the url.
04-24-2003, 02:15 PM
#41
Sheeting Foam Wings
Originally posted by Msaint
I havent found anything better than epoxy and vacumme bagging
I used a 40.00 hand held manual operated vacumme pump you can buy them at your loacal car parts store.
I ran across an article on the net that instructed me on how to use these pumps. The rest of the items you need can be found at your local hardwares store. If anyone is intrested I can try to dig up the article again and post the url.
I havent found anything better than epoxy and vacumme bagging
I used a 40.00 hand held manual operated vacumme pump you can buy them at your loacal car parts store.
I ran across an article on the net that instructed me on how to use these pumps. The rest of the items you need can be found at your local hardwares store. If anyone is intrested I can try to dig up the article again and post the url.
04-24-2003, 02:16 PM
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Ahh here it is
http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articl...baggingsys.htm
Havent found a lighter way yet of sheeting wings
Its a lil messy but the results are well worth it.
Nothing comes loose durring them 100 degree days.
http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articl...baggingsys.htm
Havent found a lighter way yet of sheeting wings
Its a lil messy but the results are well worth it.
Nothing comes loose durring them 100 degree days.
04-24-2003, 07:00 PM
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Well, it is true you only get one chance...that could be good and that could be bad. I mean... you only get one chance because it is THAT good. The sheet will NOT come off. Thats why I like it. I laid a piece of newspaper between the two sheets and put the sheeting exactly where I wanted it. While I hold it there, someone else gently pulls out the newspaper. All I can say is that mine turned out perfectly. Its also been my experience that if you cut your sheeting slightly larger than your foam wing you can cut it down to fit or even sand it down for a nice fit.
Mike
Mike
04-24-2003, 08:31 PM
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Rajul, and nmills -
Yup. It sticks right away and the times I have had to pull it apart (like making an opening for a servo or landing gear or something) the wood is firmly bonded to the foam.
Give the cores a VERY light sanding with some 150 grit or finer paper to make sure there's no bumps or lumps. Take it easy here, they may not need it.
Glue up your skins using the masking tape and wood glue method. I weight them with boxes of model plane magazines (have plenty of them!) under wax paper for a day or two to make sure the glue is set. Make the skins about 2-3" larger all around to make sure there is some room for error. Coat the cores and one side of the sheeting. The sheeting will curl some during the 30-40 min the glue takes to set up - pin it to the workbench to keep it reasonably flat. Be careful to get the glue evenly spread (I use a disposable acid brush) and get it coated right to the edge. The few drops of water-based paint mixed with the Sorghum helps to see where you've been - out of the bottle the glue is kinda balsa-colored.
Lay a sheet of waxed paper on the core, covering all except the very leading edge. (or trailing edge, doesn't matter) Lining up the sheeting, bond the edge and smooth down firmly. Pull out the waxed paper 3-5" at a time and press the skin to the core. I use my hand on the upper side while the lower side rests in the 'shuck' or the waste part of the blank. This will make sure any washout cut into the core doesn't get pressed out, or you don't build in a warp. When the wax paper is all the way out, you may 'roll' the leading edge on the workbench to insure it is evenly bonded. Some trimming may be in order here if the skins overhang the edge too much. With Sorghum, you'll find the edges bond down just fine. Do the other side, some more trimming may be needed as you go.
If, for some reason you 'miss' and the sheeting is off - it's misaligned and doesn't cover the core all the way, don't worry about it. Glue up another piece of balsa, let it set up and patch it. Or just cut the needed piece off the skin overhang - it's already glued up. The edges will grab fine and you can sand the patch smooth. If you're finishing with epoxy and fiberglass the edges will get bonded. If not, you can rub a little glue on the seam and smooth it down. The important thing is that if it looks like you've made a mistake, keep going! You'll wreck the core and sheeting if you try and pull it apart after you've started sticking it down.
Using 80 grit paper and a long sanding block, trim and smooth the leading and trailing edges, the root, and tip flat and square. Cut your ailerons, flaps, etc. as needed. I use fast epoxy to bond the LE and TE, held in place with strips of masking tape. Epoxy the wingtip on the same way. Sand to shape "as shown." Epoxy the cores at the root - add a strip of epoxied fiberglass around the root joint cuff. Finish with glass and epoxy or your favorite method.
Good luck!
Yup. It sticks right away and the times I have had to pull it apart (like making an opening for a servo or landing gear or something) the wood is firmly bonded to the foam.
Give the cores a VERY light sanding with some 150 grit or finer paper to make sure there's no bumps or lumps. Take it easy here, they may not need it.
Glue up your skins using the masking tape and wood glue method. I weight them with boxes of model plane magazines (have plenty of them!) under wax paper for a day or two to make sure the glue is set. Make the skins about 2-3" larger all around to make sure there is some room for error. Coat the cores and one side of the sheeting. The sheeting will curl some during the 30-40 min the glue takes to set up - pin it to the workbench to keep it reasonably flat. Be careful to get the glue evenly spread (I use a disposable acid brush) and get it coated right to the edge. The few drops of water-based paint mixed with the Sorghum helps to see where you've been - out of the bottle the glue is kinda balsa-colored.
Lay a sheet of waxed paper on the core, covering all except the very leading edge. (or trailing edge, doesn't matter) Lining up the sheeting, bond the edge and smooth down firmly. Pull out the waxed paper 3-5" at a time and press the skin to the core. I use my hand on the upper side while the lower side rests in the 'shuck' or the waste part of the blank. This will make sure any washout cut into the core doesn't get pressed out, or you don't build in a warp. When the wax paper is all the way out, you may 'roll' the leading edge on the workbench to insure it is evenly bonded. Some trimming may be in order here if the skins overhang the edge too much. With Sorghum, you'll find the edges bond down just fine. Do the other side, some more trimming may be needed as you go.
If, for some reason you 'miss' and the sheeting is off - it's misaligned and doesn't cover the core all the way, don't worry about it. Glue up another piece of balsa, let it set up and patch it. Or just cut the needed piece off the skin overhang - it's already glued up. The edges will grab fine and you can sand the patch smooth. If you're finishing with epoxy and fiberglass the edges will get bonded. If not, you can rub a little glue on the seam and smooth it down. The important thing is that if it looks like you've made a mistake, keep going! You'll wreck the core and sheeting if you try and pull it apart after you've started sticking it down.
Using 80 grit paper and a long sanding block, trim and smooth the leading and trailing edges, the root, and tip flat and square. Cut your ailerons, flaps, etc. as needed. I use fast epoxy to bond the LE and TE, held in place with strips of masking tape. Epoxy the wingtip on the same way. Sand to shape "as shown." Epoxy the cores at the root - add a strip of epoxied fiberglass around the root joint cuff. Finish with glass and epoxy or your favorite method.
Good luck!
04-24-2003, 11:54 PM
#45
Sheeting Foam Wings
Originally posted by rsabast
I use my hand on the upper side while the lower side rests in the 'shuck' or the waste part of the blank. This will make sure any washout cut into the core doesn't get pressed out, or you don't build in a warp.
I use my hand on the upper side while the lower side rests in the 'shuck' or the waste part of the blank. This will make sure any washout cut into the core doesn't get pressed out, or you don't build in a warp.
Hi msaint, saw the website but no pics at all ! Wish you could post pics of your setup. Thx
04-25-2003, 01:07 AM
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By the way, now that delaminating was mentioned, I just wanted to say that the Foam Bond does not delaminate at all in the hot sun, or even hotter. It's been tested with a torch, and the balsa is burning and the foam is melting and the Foam Bond is still maintaining its bond. It's somewhat suseptible to water, but average dampness does not affect it at all, it has to actually be soaked for an extended period to affect it. So, float planes are not a good candidate for Foam Bond!
Jimbo
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04-25-2003, 03:08 AM
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rajul -
The 'shucks' are the part of the foam block you don't use.
Say you have a rectangular block of foam from which a wing panel is to be cut. Call it roughly 4" thick by about a foot wide by four feet long. The hot wire cuts the airfoil shape, top and bottom. Now you have three pieces:
The wing core itself, and the top 1/3 and the bottom 1/3.
By laying the core in part of the foam block from which it was cut as you work on it, it will support it and prevent you from sheeting in a warp. The foam 'cradle' also helps in keeping it from getting it dinged up on the workbench. Ascii art:
___________________________
| _____________top 1/3 |
|----- (_____ core ____| ------------|
|_____________bottom 1/3____ |
The 'shucks' are the part of the foam block you don't use.
Say you have a rectangular block of foam from which a wing panel is to be cut. Call it roughly 4" thick by about a foot wide by four feet long. The hot wire cuts the airfoil shape, top and bottom. Now you have three pieces:
The wing core itself, and the top 1/3 and the bottom 1/3.
By laying the core in part of the foam block from which it was cut as you work on it, it will support it and prevent you from sheeting in a warp. The foam 'cradle' also helps in keeping it from getting it dinged up on the workbench. Ascii art:
___________________________
| _____________top 1/3 |
|----- (_____ core ____| ------------|
|_____________bottom 1/3____ |
04-26-2003, 03:11 AM
#50
Sheeting Foam Wings
I found Ola Flemmings' method of vacuum bagging and his low cost setup here http://home.online.no/~ofremmi/HowTo.../VacuumBag.htm