Noisy Saito FA 100
09-29-2005, 09:10 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Hello Will, I read your discussion with the fello with the "noisy fa-100 saito". Can you help with some advise on replacing the front bearing on my Saito FA-150? The front sealed bearing leaks glow fuel between the front housing and Taper Collet. Do I need to disassemble the engine to get the front bearing off? Any help would be appreciated...Ken.
09-29-2005, 09:44 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
[b]Ken:
Sorry, but yes, you have to pull the engine down for the front bearing replacement. I wouldn't change just the front bearing either - the rear takes a lot more beating than the front.
Paul, at RC_Bearings.com will supply you with good bearings, use a ceramic in the rear and if he has them in stock a sealed ceramic in front. If he doesn't have the sealed ceramic then use a standard steel bearing in front. In any case, don't use the shielded variety, be sure it's a sealed bearing. They are different - the shielded bearing will let the oil flow through, that's what you're trying to eliminate.
With the difference of having the intake screw into the cylinder, pulling it down and putting it back together is exactly the same as for the FA-100, all procedures identical.
Going to the big block there is a minor difference - the rocker pedestals are not cast in unit with the cylinder, if you just leave them on the cylinder the only difference in servicing the two engines is the size.
Hope this helps.
Bill.
Sorry, but yes, you have to pull the engine down for the front bearing replacement. I wouldn't change just the front bearing either - the rear takes a lot more beating than the front.
Paul, at RC_Bearings.com will supply you with good bearings, use a ceramic in the rear and if he has them in stock a sealed ceramic in front. If he doesn't have the sealed ceramic then use a standard steel bearing in front. In any case, don't use the shielded variety, be sure it's a sealed bearing. They are different - the shielded bearing will let the oil flow through, that's what you're trying to eliminate.
With the difference of having the intake screw into the cylinder, pulling it down and putting it back together is exactly the same as for the FA-100, all procedures identical.
Going to the big block there is a minor difference - the rocker pedestals are not cast in unit with the cylinder, if you just leave them on the cylinder the only difference in servicing the two engines is the size.
Hope this helps.
Bill.
10-10-2005, 01:23 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Good Afternoon Bill -- I have a Saito FA-65 which had bad bearings. I read the "Noisy Saito ---" thread with a vested interest. I had checked several other threads before I came on this gold mine. This was my first attempt at changing bearings so I dove in. The engine now has new bearings and next I will check the cam position before final assembly. This is just to demonstrate that some people (like me) read threads and are helped but are unseen. Everything went smoothly. So THANK YOU ! it really helped.A couple of comments Since I started the disassembly before I started reading I did not note of intake vs exhaust push rods. I have miked them and they are less than 2 tenths apart. I will assemble with the shorter one in the exhaust and if that doesn't work I will switch them. It's hard to believe a tenth or so could make that much difference.
Even with the block at 300 F the bearings would not fall out. I made up two hardwood dowels as punches. I knocked the front one out first, then reversed and with the larger dowel tapped out the rear. After a thorough cleaning and polishing I pressed the front bearing in with a parallel jaw vise (warm block) and using a third made up dowel pressed in the rear bearing. The shaft went in smoothly. I then pressed on the prop nut using a drive nut and a series of washers. Heating the nut with a hot air gun made the press on much easier than the removal had been.
Just for HO HO's I gripped the the shaft in the three jaw chuck on my smithy. I put a dial indicator way out at the end of the crank case where the back plate bolts on. Roataing the shaft by hand I moticed a 12 mill deviation. To me this indicates the shaft is slightly bent.
Questio: -- Do you think that small a deviation is critical? If so I will remove it.
I started this hobby in 1942 but took 50 years out to mess around with unimportant things like career and family. Now I am back with a vengance!
Once again -- Many Thanks
jOHn
10-10-2005, 01:55 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
John:
Thank you for the kind words, sir. Appreciated.
The way you have checked for bend can in itself give errors. To start with, the Smithy while a generally good machine, can have run out in its spindle. Add the errors inherent in a three jaw chuck and you have more yet. Finally, if the case wobbles the least bit while the indicator is against it...
With the crank and bearings only in the case turn the crank. If it looks true to your eyeball it should be fine. Or if you're really worried about it put the crank on vee blocks, one at the seating area of the rear bearing and shim another to fit under the front of the threads holding the crank shaft level. Then indicate it at the seating position for the front bearing.
Alternately a Du-Bro prop balancer can be used to support the crank at the two bearing seating positions, and your eyeball will indicate the front of the threads. Be careful with the Du-Bro though, some of their wheels themselves aren't true. Doesn't seem to affect working with props. For cranks I get my High Point balancer out, much higher quality than the Du-Bro. Sadly, no longer available.
A good eyeball will get you to a ten thousandth with no effort.
Summary:
If you can see run out with the crank and bearings in the case it's too much. If it looks true it is, finish the assembly and enjoy the engine.
Bill.
Thank you for the kind words, sir. Appreciated.
The way you have checked for bend can in itself give errors. To start with, the Smithy while a generally good machine, can have run out in its spindle. Add the errors inherent in a three jaw chuck and you have more yet. Finally, if the case wobbles the least bit while the indicator is against it...
With the crank and bearings only in the case turn the crank. If it looks true to your eyeball it should be fine. Or if you're really worried about it put the crank on vee blocks, one at the seating area of the rear bearing and shim another to fit under the front of the threads holding the crank shaft level. Then indicate it at the seating position for the front bearing.
Alternately a Du-Bro prop balancer can be used to support the crank at the two bearing seating positions, and your eyeball will indicate the front of the threads. Be careful with the Du-Bro though, some of their wheels themselves aren't true. Doesn't seem to affect working with props. For cranks I get my High Point balancer out, much higher quality than the Du-Bro. Sadly, no longer available.
A good eyeball will get you to a ten thousandth with no effort.
Summary:
If you can see run out with the crank and bearings in the case it's too much. If it looks true it is, finish the assembly and enjoy the engine.
Bill.
10-10-2005, 03:51 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Thanks Bill The Smithy is a used machine, new to me and so I checked run out with about the same shaft size and at about the same distance. It was about 3 tenths. I can't see any run out with the (pardon the word) naked eye or with 10 X mag so I guess I am OK.
If this works out I bought a bunch more bearings. I used Boca bearing on the advice of a fellow flyer. If you know of a problem there please let me know. I will keep you up to speed as the saga progresses. I really like screwing around with this kind of stuff.
Quick Question -- I have a Tower hobbies tach that is unreliable. It reads 3600 against a fluorescent light as it should but with props it is all over the place. I have tried white and aluminum spray paint, bright sunlight and shadow and while other tachs settle on a speed mine wanders all over the place. I replaced the battery, cleaned the lens etc. NO JOY ! Any ideas or do I just get a different tach?
jOHn
If this works out I bought a bunch more bearings. I used Boca bearing on the advice of a fellow flyer. If you know of a problem there please let me know. I will keep you up to speed as the saga progresses. I really like screwing around with this kind of stuff.
Quick Question -- I have a Tower hobbies tach that is unreliable. It reads 3600 against a fluorescent light as it should but with props it is all over the place. I have tried white and aluminum spray paint, bright sunlight and shadow and while other tachs settle on a speed mine wanders all over the place. I replaced the battery, cleaned the lens etc. NO JOY ! Any ideas or do I just get a different tach?
jOHn
10-10-2005, 06:55 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
[b]John:
Forgot to address one of your earlier questions. The push rods, the valves, the rockers, rocker covers, the valve springs, and the tappets will all interchange from side to side when new. As the engine runs these parts will wear to seat. Once run it's best to keep them where they have already run. Except for the tappets they can still be interchanged after seating, but I just prefer not causing the additional wear, however slight, as they establish their new seating.
I too have a Tower Tach. What I came up with is that the viewing angle of the CdS cell is too wide - no focus. What I did was a short length of tubing, the inside blacked with a candle flame, pushed over the sensing cell. Made it a lot better, but still no TNC. Worth a shot, let me know how it works for you.
Bill.
Forgot to address one of your earlier questions. The push rods, the valves, the rockers, rocker covers, the valve springs, and the tappets will all interchange from side to side when new. As the engine runs these parts will wear to seat. Once run it's best to keep them where they have already run. Except for the tappets they can still be interchanged after seating, but I just prefer not causing the additional wear, however slight, as they establish their new seating.
I too have a Tower Tach. What I came up with is that the viewing angle of the CdS cell is too wide - no focus. What I did was a short length of tubing, the inside blacked with a candle flame, pushed over the sensing cell. Made it a lot better, but still no TNC. Worth a shot, let me know how it works for you.
Bill.
10-10-2005, 11:37 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Is that the same as saying that at TDC (one of them) that both fingers will be pushed on, or that both valves will be open somewhat? (overlap period) If even one tooth off, this will not happen?
Ernie
Ernie
10-10-2005, 11:45 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Ernie:
I assume you're asking about the tappet lift moving the push rods into your fingers as a timing check. Both should be slightly above the rest position at TDC between the intake and exhaust strokes. The timing gears are coarse enough that one tooth off will be obvious. If you are doing this before mounting the cylinder the crank pin will be off center by almost 1/4 inch when the cam is off one tooth.
With a little care it's hard not to get the cam timing right.
Bill.
I assume you're asking about the tappet lift moving the push rods into your fingers as a timing check. Both should be slightly above the rest position at TDC between the intake and exhaust strokes. The timing gears are coarse enough that one tooth off will be obvious. If you are doing this before mounting the cylinder the crank pin will be off center by almost 1/4 inch when the cam is off one tooth.
With a little care it's hard not to get the cam timing right.
Bill.
10-11-2005, 07:23 AM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Bill,
In my ignorance I got lucky! I did not take the tappets out. I will now to clean and lube them and will keep track of which is which. Thanks for the tip on the tach. I'll let you know.
John
In my ignorance I got lucky! I did not take the tappets out. I will now to clean and lube them and will keep track of which is which. Thanks for the tip on the tach. I'll let you know.
John
10-14-2005, 01:42 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
ORIGINAL: Digger44
I used this sequence that Will Robison did in another thread.
ORIGINAL: William Robison
Krause:
The only hard part is pulling the prop drive. With the engine in your hand go to your local auto supply house, they may well have loaner tools, including a puller that will do the job. Just pop it free while you're there.
Back home? Pull the rocker covers, take the rocker pivot pins out along with the rockers and push rods. There will be either plastic or steel thrust washers on the inner side of the rockers. No mistake, the load pushes them to the center. Keep the intake and exhaust parts separate, put them back where they came out.
Pull the carb, intake pipe, and the back plate. Now remove the four screws holding the cylinder. Rock it a little to break it free. Turn the crank toward TDC as you lift the cylinder a little more, when the skirt of the cylinder is above the crank case move it to the rear to disconnect the con rod. Unless there's a problem in the top end do not take the piston out of the cylinder. Note the push rod tubes and their seals will come with the cylinder. Set the assembly aside.
At this point the crank will slide out the rear. But putting it back in and getting the cam in time is a bear, so pull the cam housing before you pop the crank. Try not to damage the gasket, its thickness sets the mesh of the timing gears.
Make sure the new bearings will slide on the crank shaft. If they will not, use some oil and 600 grit paper to polish it until the bearings do slide on. Clean it up, slide the rear bearing on and leave it. If the front bearing has rubber seals, pop either one out. If it has the metal shields, leave them both in.
With nothing left in the case but the bearings, put it in the oven at 250 degrees for 20 minutes or so. Then, protecting your hands, a dowel can be used to push the front bearing out, and a sharp rap on some hard wood will make the rear bearing fall out.
While the case is still hot, slide the crank and rear bearing in, slide the front bearing on, then push the shaft in while pushing the front bearing in at the same time. This uses one to guide the other, you wont get one cocked. Oh yes. The front bearing seal. If you took one out, the open side goes to the case. If you had the metal shields, either way is fine.
Reassemble in reverse order.
Notes on assembly: Cam timing has been covered too many times to repeat it here, search on "Saito" and "Cam" - you'll find several of my posts about it, including how to check timing after assembly. Use a very light smear of RTV on the joint between the cylinder and case, same on the back plate. Don't forget the push rod tubes when you mount the cylinder. Sliding the lower seals about 1/3 of the way up the tube will make it easier to locate them. Looking at the push rods you will see one end is rounded, the other is tapered before the rounded end. The tapered end goes to the top.
If Jim and I haven't scared you, have at it. Otherwise have some one else do it for you.
Bill.
Krause:
The only hard part is pulling the prop drive. With the engine in your hand go to your local auto supply house, they may well have loaner tools, including a puller that will do the job. Just pop it free while you're there.
Back home? Pull the rocker covers, take the rocker pivot pins out along with the rockers and push rods. There will be either plastic or steel thrust washers on the inner side of the rockers. No mistake, the load pushes them to the center. Keep the intake and exhaust parts separate, put them back where they came out.
Pull the carb, intake pipe, and the back plate. Now remove the four screws holding the cylinder. Rock it a little to break it free. Turn the crank toward TDC as you lift the cylinder a little more, when the skirt of the cylinder is above the crank case move it to the rear to disconnect the con rod. Unless there's a problem in the top end do not take the piston out of the cylinder. Note the push rod tubes and their seals will come with the cylinder. Set the assembly aside.
At this point the crank will slide out the rear. But putting it back in and getting the cam in time is a bear, so pull the cam housing before you pop the crank. Try not to damage the gasket, its thickness sets the mesh of the timing gears.
Make sure the new bearings will slide on the crank shaft. If they will not, use some oil and 600 grit paper to polish it until the bearings do slide on. Clean it up, slide the rear bearing on and leave it. If the front bearing has rubber seals, pop either one out. If it has the metal shields, leave them both in.
With nothing left in the case but the bearings, put it in the oven at 250 degrees for 20 minutes or so. Then, protecting your hands, a dowel can be used to push the front bearing out, and a sharp rap on some hard wood will make the rear bearing fall out.
While the case is still hot, slide the crank and rear bearing in, slide the front bearing on, then push the shaft in while pushing the front bearing in at the same time. This uses one to guide the other, you wont get one cocked. Oh yes. The front bearing seal. If you took one out, the open side goes to the case. If you had the metal shields, either way is fine.
Reassemble in reverse order.
Notes on assembly: Cam timing has been covered too many times to repeat it here, search on "Saito" and "Cam" - you'll find several of my posts about it, including how to check timing after assembly. Use a very light smear of RTV on the joint between the cylinder and case, same on the back plate. Don't forget the push rod tubes when you mount the cylinder. Sliding the lower seals about 1/3 of the way up the tube will make it easier to locate them. Looking at the push rods you will see one end is rounded, the other is tapered before the rounded end. The tapered end goes to the top.
If Jim and I haven't scared you, have at it. Otherwise have some one else do it for you.
Bill.
If you use my sealed front bearings, DON'T remove one of the seals! these bearings are filled with a high quality synthetic grease that will outlast the engine. By removing one seal and leaving the other intact, you risk not getting enough lube to that bearing and it will fail. Shielded bearings are used because the positive crankcase pressure causes blowby oil to migrate out to the cam and front bearing. This is how they are lubed.
10-14-2005, 03:03 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Bill,
I finished assembling the FA-65 we have been discussing. It turns over smooth as silk. The timing seems right on (as per your instructions.) I set the clearance at .04 mm. The compression seems OK We will see when I run it. If Power is low are there other repairs like ring change or whatever that I can attempt? We have had a lot of rain so I haven't run it yet.
RE: The tach - I took the black cap off a dead ball point pen and cemented it onto the tach with black RTV. It is about 1" long. You didn't mention how long your tube was. Looking carefully at the CdSO2 detector it seems to be mounted a bit wall eyed. Those things aren't directional sensitive are they?
Now that I am an expert (LOL) I am going to attack the 150 Black Knight.
Playing around with "font size" doesn' seem to do a thing. Ever fool with it?
John
I finished assembling the FA-65 we have been discussing. It turns over smooth as silk. The timing seems right on (as per your instructions.) I set the clearance at .04 mm. The compression seems OK We will see when I run it. If Power is low are there other repairs like ring change or whatever that I can attempt? We have had a lot of rain so I haven't run it yet.
RE: The tach - I took the black cap off a dead ball point pen and cemented it onto the tach with black RTV. It is about 1" long. You didn't mention how long your tube was. Looking carefully at the CdSO2 detector it seems to be mounted a bit wall eyed. Those things aren't directional sensitive are they?
Now that I am an expert (LOL) I am going to attack the 150 Black Knight.
Playing around with "font size" doesn' seem to do a thing. Ever fool with it?
John
10-14-2005, 03:35 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
John:
The CdS cell in your tach is not directional, that's the problem. As delivered it accepts light in an almost full half shpere. The bit of tube is to direct it. A slight angular mis match in its mount wont affect it at all.
Your FA-65 is an ABC engine, as such it's heavier than the later AAC designs, not much to do about that unless you do some machine work and install the AAC cylinder from the FA-72, along with the piston and ring to match. Not r5ecommending this, I've not tried it, probably much more practical (an not a lot more expensive) just to get the bigger engine.
I don't remember if I've mentioned it in this thread, but you can install the later cam shaft and get a healthy boost. Other than that, not much to be done with the FA-65.
Playing with the actual font is a bear, but size, color, italics, underline, and
Bill.
10-20-2005, 08:59 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Thanks Bill!! Its guys like you that keep us weekend warriors flying! Runs great...more work than I thought...next time I'll get one of the field Guru's to do it for me...
Ken
Ken
10-30-2005, 05:22 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Evening Bill,
A progress report from Bethel and a couple of questions.
Re: The Tower Tach -- No joy. I tried several different lengths of flat black tubes. The tach is still very erratic and I will ask Tower customer service what I should do. One older guy at the field has an analog tach (older model) that he likes very much.
I was given an OS FS-70 Surpass. It was partially disassembled, had parts missing and was badly gummed up. Several soakings in carb cleaner and then oil freed everything up and the bearings seem smooth. I ran them with a hand drill and squirted in carb cleaner and oil alternately. When the cleaner ran clear I figured I was finished. I am reassembling it in order to determine what parts are missing.
Question 1 -- The cam is out of the engine. It fits back in in either direction. How do I know which end to insert? The exploded diagram shows the near cam lobe up and the far lobe toward the engine. Is this correct?
Q 2 -- The cylinder sleeve is missing. any special trick to installing the new one? I assume you bake the block to 300+/- and slide it in.
Thanks in advance
John
10-30-2005, 06:19 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
John:
The OS cam will have a punch mark on one side of the cam gear. The side with the mark goes toward the cam cover, and with the crank at TDC the mark should be directly in line with the tappet bores, either on top or bottom. Since it turns at 1/2 crank speed either assembly position is OK.
I'm not sure about the sleeve fit in OS four strokes, the two strokes are a heavy push fit cold. If warming the case makes it easier to install do it. I'd try not to go to 300F, 250F should be enough. You wont hurt anything at 300F, but you're close to getting too hot.
And finally, yes. this should be in a different thread so the OS types will see the header. I am at best "Rusty" on OS, traded my last OS four stroke off a few years ago, haven't messed with one since. Saitos do, after all, RULE!
Haw.
Bill.
The OS cam will have a punch mark on one side of the cam gear. The side with the mark goes toward the cam cover, and with the crank at TDC the mark should be directly in line with the tappet bores, either on top or bottom. Since it turns at 1/2 crank speed either assembly position is OK.
I'm not sure about the sleeve fit in OS four strokes, the two strokes are a heavy push fit cold. If warming the case makes it easier to install do it. I'd try not to go to 300F, 250F should be enough. You wont hurt anything at 300F, but you're close to getting too hot.
And finally, yes. this should be in a different thread so the OS types will see the header. I am at best "Rusty" on OS, traded my last OS four stroke off a few years ago, haven't messed with one since. Saitos do, after all, RULE!
Haw.
Bill.
10-31-2005, 02:06 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Bill,
Just want to say thanks for providing all this great info.
From this thread I have learned the error of my ways, my Saito 91s just started to make a horrible noise in flight on Saturday, it has been fine before that.
I realize that my running of pure sythetic and no after run oil has cost me a set of bearings, cam and cam shaft. Can you believe this has happened in less that 2 gallons of fuel in 2 years.
I re-ordered the standard bearings from Horizon (Before reading thias thread), do you think these will be OK if I switch to the Omega fuel?
Thanks again.
Paul
Just want to say thanks for providing all this great info.
From this thread I have learned the error of my ways, my Saito 91s just started to make a horrible noise in flight on Saturday, it has been fine before that.
I realize that my running of pure sythetic and no after run oil has cost me a set of bearings, cam and cam shaft. Can you believe this has happened in less that 2 gallons of fuel in 2 years.
I re-ordered the standard bearings from Horizon (Before reading thias thread), do you think these will be OK if I switch to the Omega fuel?
Thanks again.
Paul
10-31-2005, 02:34 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
[b]Paul:
The standard bearings will work fine, it's just that a good set of ceramics will outlast the standards by at least four to one.
Before you order a new cam and tappets check yours, they may not be worn too badly for use.
Bill.
[/
The standard bearings will work fine, it's just that a good set of ceramics will outlast the standards by at least four to one.
Before you order a new cam and tappets check yours, they may not be worn too badly for use.
Bill.
[/
10-31-2005, 02:50 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Bill,
I already ordered the Cam and Cam shaft. The exisitng one has some play on the shaft so I thought better replace while I am in there.
I have not ordered new tappets or push rods though, you think it will be OK?
Paul
I already ordered the Cam and Cam shaft. The exisitng one has some play on the shaft so I thought better replace while I am in there.
I have not ordered new tappets or push rods though, you think it will be OK?
Paul
10-31-2005, 03:58 PM
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RE: Noisy Saito FA 100
Paul:
You can put a new tappet on an old cam without much worry, but an old tappet will seat to the cam it ran on, unless you reface it an old tappet will tend to destroy a new cam. Best just to get new ones. The push rods and rockers are OK for reuse. Change the valve springs also, while you're at it. They weaken with age.
Bill.
You can put a new tappet on an old cam without much worry, but an old tappet will seat to the cam it ran on, unless you reface it an old tappet will tend to destroy a new cam. Best just to get new ones. The push rods and rockers are OK for reuse. Change the valve springs also, while you're at it. They weaken with age.
Bill.
