Keithy

Nice photos, Jaybird but it looks cold there. As I sit here at 07:10, wearing only short pants and a tee shirt, the sight of you rugged up in your anorak gives me goose bumps.
If my arithmetic is right, your wing loading is only around 0.16 oz per sq inch. Shouldn't be a problem if the flying wires are as effective as they look. They certainly look much improved on the method recommended in the instruction book. I think that you might have to fly it on when landing, rather than let it sink, but that is common with scale models anyway. Bet you are feeling impatient as you contemplate the first flight.

Jaybird

I did take it out back for an engine test run this afternoon. It was very windy and the clouds would come and go, so it really wasn't a good day to go to the field. Just as I got it running (after remembering to put the needle valve back in after removing it to take the cowling off) it started right up. I can't see the throttle barrel clearly from underneath, so I had guessed at a low idle position and it was pretty close and only took a slight adjustment. Right in the middle of running it, this dark cloud came over and it started sleeting little hard ice chips. I kept on with my engine run and it was over in a few minutes. I think it's ready, so yes, I'm itching to give it a try. It definately will need to be flown all the way in. I've found that my electric one prefers that as well, rather than cutting the power and letting it drop. It's been good practice for this larger one. There is a lot of wing area so I think it will fly fine.

Jaybird

Jaybird

Maiden flight today! Even though there was a light snow covering and the ground was frozen the day was nice and sunny with just a light breeze out of the east. I did some engine tuning on a starting bench and after adjusting the high and low speed needles it was running very well. I did some taxi tests and it handles very well on the ground especially since the builder hinged the tailskid to the rudder so it moves as well. The frozen ground made it look like an old ox cart trundling along but it stayed upright and the snow wasn't a problem for the big wheels. I made a high speed run and the tail came up but it didn't look like it was going to lift off so I brought the power back. At that moment it hit a bump and jumped into the air and started to roll hard left. I jambed the aileron stick to the right and went to full power and it kept going as I'm staring at the bottom of the plane in knife edge! The Saito 80 had lots of power and it kept climbing so I tried to roll the plane back to level. It really wanted to bank left and turn so I had to hold a lot of right aileron and some right rudder. I got it up to altitude and brought the power back and it continued to turn left but was flying smoothly. Another club member helped me add some trim and after many clicks it would hold level, but not perfectly straight flight. Whew! I stayed at altitude and just flew the pattern around getting used to it again. I went a little higher and tried a power off stall. The nose came up, left wing dipped, nose dipped and as soon as I released elevator pressure it was flying again. The balance and elevator controls were very good. It cruised around nicely at about half throttle. My first landing approach was a little too high and too fast so I powered up and went around. Second approach worked well and it settled nicely. The rough ground bounced it around and it tipped over and touched a wing tip but then settled back down and came to a stop. The picture with me at the edge of the paved runway is where it stopped.

I'm going to take a look at my rigging and incedences and see if I can tweak them a bit. The engine mounting doesn't really provide a means for right thrust, but I may look into that too. Any thoughts on solutions would be welcome. I didn't get in-flight pictures or video...maybe next time!

Jaybird

jlswan

Hi All,

I'm so inspired by you guys that I started resurrecting my fathers SE5a today (along with my dad... he's 82).
He built the plane almost 40 years ago and it has never flown. My brother was storing it and it suffered some hanger damage
so we have a bit of work to do. We plan on using a SK 4250-650 and 4000ma 4S. Here are some pics of our new project...

Keithy

Nice project, jlswan. Looks like the damage is pretty minor and should not pose too many problems for you. Your choice of motor is a good one. That is what I adapted mine to fly with. I use a 3600mAh battery with a 60 Amp UBEC, and get a good 9 minutes of flight from it. The motor is really a little too powerful for the job andit flys well and performs aerobaticson a little more than 1/2 throttle. The extra grunt comes in handy if you get into trouble close to the deck! Hope you get lots of fun out of it and be sure to rig the flying wires (most necessary) !!!
Question:- Is that a scale colur scheme?
Happy days.

pimmnz

If the full size was 'PC 10' doped then it was a mixture of yellow ochre and lamp black in a clear cellulose base. It can be anything from a dark brown to a slightly green tinged black/brown, depending on the pecentage mix of each constituent and the angle of the light . You can't get olive green from it. So yes, a brown would be scale. As for Jaybirds flight, it sounds like a very rearward balance, and pointing to way insufficient differential, and the need for an aileron/rudder mix, or perhaps, rudder/aileron. These airplanes are rudder/elevator machines, so perhaps if he mixes 50%? aileron with his rudder the thing will respond much better. Things change as you go back in time, and these airplanes fly quite differently to the modern stuff.
Evan, WB #12.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Don't forget the Chineese red added to the lamp black and yellow ocher. The color is actually pretty neat. It tends to change with the light. In direct sun light it appears more greenish. When in shade more brownish.

OD works pretty much the same way.

Jaybird

Hi Evan,

Thanks for the input on my first flight. I'm interested in your balance comment as once the plane was trimmed it handled quite nicely and pitch control was not an issue. The stall at altitude was fairly gentle and the glide path at landing was stable and flair worked nicely. It didn't seem like front to back balance was an issue but had not checked the lateral balance. I may have a set of wings heavier on one side than the other. I am comfortable with the rudder and don't like to mix aileron and rudder as not all aileron maneuvers require direct mixing and I don't like to have to turn mixing on and off while flying. I have about 40% expo and differential programmed into the ailerons at this point. I'll take a look at the incidences and rigging before I fly it again.

Jaybird

pimmnz

PC 12 was the red ochre and lamp black colour, I haven't heard of all three pigments used in one mix. Still, I suppose it could have happened 'in the field'. So far as Jaybirds balance, a heavy wing won't make much difference when flying, the interesting comment was his 'once trimmed the balance seemed ok' comment. Rearward balances show up as a speed dependent problem, it might feel ok at lower speeds, but becomes progressivley more difficult in pitch as speed rises. Glide and stall checks might not show a problem, but it goes increasingly 'nose down' as the speed increases. Sounds just what you described. I do not get your problem with A/R mix, the full size would never have done 'aileron only' manouvers, even rolls would be an elevator/rudder (flick) with aileron to assist. No need to switch the mix at any time, if you touch the rudder while on the aileron, the mix switches itself off anyway. As I said, these things do not fly like any 'sport R/C'.
Evan, WB #12.

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Now you can say you have learned something new.

The PC10 Recipe

Lets see for 100 gallons (Imperial btw) of PC10 dope
260 pounds nitro Cellulose syrup
74 pounds of pigments in the following proportions
40 pounds yellow ochre
30 pounds umber
2 pounds 8 ounces Red Ochre
1 pound 8 ounces Chinese Blue.

Once that lot was assembled it was added to
20 gallons Acetone or Methyl ethyl ketone
15 gallons Amyl Acetate
15 Gallons benzol
15 gallons Methylated spirit

Jaybird

Thanks again Evan. I may not have been clear in my explanation. I use rudder to fly (hence I don't mix it in) on my models and I am aware of the characteristics of WWI aircraft. I owned this same model many years ago and built it myself. This current model I owned a few years ago and now have it back. I fly the Hangar 9 Fokker DVII, Concept Models Fleet M2 and Balsa USA Eindecker. I don't try to fly them like "sport R/C" models, I try to fly them in a scale flight manor. I also have flown full size aircraft including the Stearman and Piper Cub so I have some seat of the pants experience too.

Jaybird

pimmnz

OK, then I guess you have 'the feel' for the thing. My full size experience is limited to simple 'spam cans' but my modelling starts from Santos Dumont. My WW1 stuff goes from Pfalz through Fokker and Siemens, so enough variety to know the basic problems. I still think you could move your balance forward as bit though...
Evan, WB #12.

Jaybird

I agree on the balance and will see what I can do to move it further forward. Other than making further adjustments to the rigging I'm not sure what else I can do to reduce the left rolling tendancy. I have measured the wing incidences with (2) meters and compared them from the center section out to the ailerons and they match top and bottom. The required radio trim position though has the airlerons deflected for a right turn about 3/16". Should I intentionally increase the incidence on the left panels and reduce the right panels to get the ailerons back inline with the airfoil?

Jaybird

Keithy

Hiya you guys,
I can add some to the above for what it is worth. As I said before, I intended to use a different method of rigging the flying wires on my SE5 and I have now done so. I have usedthreaded couplers, into clevises, so I can 'tune' the wires at will. Having done that and carefully measuring incidences and warps, etc., I took the model to the flying field last Sunday. I have two set-ups on my transmitter for this model, one using lesser rates than the other. I took off with the lesser throws switched in and almost wrote the model off withing 50 feet of take off. It rolled to the left and there was not enough aileron throw to correct the tendency. Fortunately, I managed to fumble the switch to maximum throws and I got control back again, but only just. A quick circuit and back on the deck, I re-checked the allignments of the wings and all looked correct except for the aileron throw that I had trimmed in during the downwind leg on the way to landing. That throw is about1/8 of an inch on each side of right aileron. It looks ridiculous and un-pretty, so I am going to tune the wires to give me small amounts of wing warping and hopefully be able to fly with neutral trims. One improvement that I did notice during that short and hair raising flight, was the extra 4oz of lead that I put in the nose has made a big difference to the pitch handling characteristics. The balance point is now about 3/4 of an inch forward of where theplans indicate and I found that much easier to handle on landing approach. I agree with the statements about using coordinated rudder and aileron. I would not try to mix them on the transmitter, but making turns certainly needs both aileron and rudder.This is the first model of mineon whichI have found this necessary, so I am still learning how best to do it.
Look forward to reading your views on my experiences
K

pimmnz

You just gave the very best reason for using the radio mix. At times of stress, we tend to just bang on aileron to correct a rolling model, and with these things that just makes it worse. The correct thing to do is bang on lots of rudder, but when you don't have time to think...at least with the mix on you do end up with some rudder, and it might just give you enough time to sort things out. And as all the pilots were taught to lead with rudder and balance with aileron, well, there isn't any good reason not to use the mix, it certainly makes things easier. Once the thing is all trimmed out and you have at least 30% mix dialled in, then you can start to play with the mix off, but when you ain't sitting in it, and no skid ball in front of you...well, how the heck do you know when the turn is balanced? As for Tripe pilots...
Evan, WB #12.

pimmnz

You can forget dual rates with these things as well, those first flights will likely need all the control you've got, and then some. Always get as much movement as you can, specially rudder and elevator, then get the balance well forward, then do the first flight.
Evan, WB #12.

Keithy

Thanks for your comments. pimmnz.
You are obviously pretty convinced of your views on the subject ofco-ordinated turns and the need to link aileron and rudder in the Tx. I respect that and wish you well. I have never had the privilege of flying a WW1, or even a WW11 fighter so this is new to me. However, I have had the enormous pleasure of learning to fly sailplanes andunder airotow conditions, learned how to use rudder to the best advantage. In a glider/ sailplane, using rudder along with aileron and elevator , if you do it properly, makes for very efficient turns and of course, the windshield 'skid meter' makes that pretty easy to achieve. Wouldn't it be nice to have that kind of feed in when flying a modelYou are most likely correct in pointing out that I may have not had such difficulty in correcting my roll to theleft had I had the two functions linked but I think that in the long run, I'd still prefer to be able to use independent inputs to the Tx. Thanks for your input,
Keithy

Jaybird

Hi Keith,

Glad you and your plane survived the flight. Your experience sounded EXACTLY like mine. It certainly was a thrill ride and I was grateful for extra power when I needed it. I'm going to use my adjustable rigging the the same way you mentioned, but it will be many months now until I can try it out. Best of luck with yours.

I can see Evan's point about panic situations where one might forget to input the proper rudder control. I'm just not convinced that every aileron input requires rudder input in the same direction and with the mix I'd have to remember to put in opposite rudder to counter the mixing especially if I were wanting to do a side or forward slip. Anyway, it's just my preference not to mix, but I may try it later on.

It's great to be this passionate about something, isn't it?

In southern Maine this Friday there is an opportunity to speak with a member of the Tuskegee Airmen and then view the new movie that's out. I'm really looking forward to it.

Jaybird

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

When rigging these planes don't be tempted to make the flying wires too tight. In fact just enough to releave tension is fine. Remember the wings lift upwars during flight. The flying wires are there to keep the wings from flying off the plane and no more.

If your plane is rolling then there's either a warp, misaligned incidence etc. The full size SE5a has 5degree pos incidence, 5 degrees dihedral, and 5 degrees pos incidence on the stab. All relative to the thrust line.

Effectively this gives the plane 5 degrees of down thrust.

I don't use mix aileron and rudder either. I prefer to do that myself. I do like differential on the ailerons though. Seems to help.

pimmnz

To each his own...I appreciate that everyone has their own preference, but I always use 'CAR' with high and biplane winged models, any touch of the rudder stick changes the effect anyway, but several models I have won't turn without CAR, worst is my Monocoupe, even with plenty of differential it will bank left, yaw right, and continue in a straight line...I find that flying the model away in front then applying aileron and watching how much the tail yaws out of line will allow you to adjust the amount of mix to use, rudder is always added in the direction of applied aileron, once in the turn you might need apply a little bit of 'opposite aileron' to maintain bank angle, but the two always go together...I come from the aerobatic world where aileron is the only direction/roll control so co-ordinating aileron and rudder with a model has never been natural for me, it's just so much easier with a bit of auto mix. 'Crossed control' stuff still works with the mix switched on, with my JR radios anyway, the mix is simply ignored unless the rudder stick is in the centred position so the 'might need opposite rudder with aileron' argument don't stack up either... dunno, just makes life real easy... and I'm all for an easy life.
Evan, WB #12.

Jaybird

Ah, there is the difference for me anyway. My radios apply whatever mix is programmed wherever the rudder stick is. So, if I input some left rudder to initiate a left turn followed by aileron with rudder mix I'm going to get more rudder added in. If it's more rudder than required then it will push the tail to the outside if the turn and I'll have to relax my rudder input. I'd rather just directly control the rudder...my preference is all.

It's really about the electronic equipment we have and how we each use them and take advantage of the features they either do or do not have. That combined with our previous flying experience and style makes the electronic options a great tool to have available if we want them.

Happy flying!

Jaybird

pimmnz

That'll be it then..as for tweaking the rig, be a bit careful. If you add a bit of incidence to one side (the one thats going down) then you will also add a bit of drag, which, specially at low speeds/high AOA's, might just drag the thing around the wrong way. Rather, I think, reduce incidence on the 'up' going side, this will slightly reduce the drag that side, but might be easier at low speeds. Would rudder trim not be possible?
Evan.

Keithy

Evan, that looks like very good advice. I understand your angle there and it was my intention to reduce incidence, rather than increase it on the opposite side. However, the rudder trim just might be a better way to go. Back into the melting pot....
Once again, thanks for you input.
Keithy

jlswan

Keithy, Thanks for the reply. My Dad got the scheme from a book, the brown turned out darker than intended.
I'm having a few issues trying to post... trying again. We have the plane back together (not too scale looking) but the goal is to see how she flies.
What did you use for a motor mount? This was built for a 60 size gas so it has horizontal rails... no firewall.

TFF

The motor mounts are Phenolic plates that bolt to the motor and then to the wood rails. I did mine that way. You could do the same with some metal if you wanted. you could always reinforce that 1/2 firewall and bolt a mount to that.