HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

Silversurfer, now we are sharing information. Thanks. I just want to learn more about this engine by sharing settings and other trick and tips and mistakes. Also, warn other of possible mistake so other can avoid. I've read earlier warning from other owners but still couldn't avoid it. Now, I'm just affraid to touch the needle valves until I know the safe range. To be honest, I don't want an engine this tempermental, but I guess I have to live with it. I've also thought of putting a DA into my comp-arf extra 2.6m in place of the BME, but I don't want to cut up the existing cowl and I don't how much deviation of the foot print between DA and BME. Anyway, my philosophy is if it is working, leave it alone until something breaks. Right now, my aircraft is already set up for BME 110, so I don't want to start a messing with it. I'm just upset that this engine is so fragile.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Which is exactly why I placed an order two days ago for a 115.

Danny Allen

HNPower,

Did you ever look at the plugs to see the color. You never mentioned that you checked them which is a very good indicator as to how lean or rich the motor is running. My engine is running a little hot although runs perfectly fine at all throttle settings. Never bogs on uplines. I checked my plugs and they were tan and dry. I am going to richen my low end and top end if need be so the plugs are a little black instead of tan to make sure I am on the rich side. I think my temps will come down some if I richen it up a little. I do have baffling also.

Thanks to RTK (and others) for sharing such valuable info on tuning this motor. I love it so far. Has been very dependable. Just would like to bring the temps down a little, I hope by richening the engine a little.

RTK, I am using Echo chainsaw motor oil at a 40:1 mix for break in. Do you think I need to go to 32:1 as you are using or is 40:1 ok?

Thanks,
Danny

Danny Allen

Sorry RTK,

I meant to say I am using Stihl chainsaw oil, not Echo.

Danny

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

The color of the plugs is normal. A little black but dried, same color as the plug came out in my car. I'm using 50 to 1 samsoil mix just to make sure the engine got enough lube.
If anyone have a chance, please provide the needle valves location. I want to come up with a safe setting range for this engine. I think this info will benefits everyone.

Danny Allen

HNPower,

I don't think it is going to be much help in knowing what settings everyone else is using. As RTK mentioned there are alot of environmental differences and no two engines are going to have identical settings. It may be good to have a ballpark figure I guess but as RTK stated the best thing to do is back out both needles till you KNOW it is rich and start tweaking the needles from that point on. Probably a good idea to look a the plugs too to ensure it is not running too lean.
I am no expert by any means, it just seems to make a lot of sense (especially with this engine) to start with a really rich setup and then lean it out as you go looking at the plugs along the way too.

Danny

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Dan-- That ratio would be fine as long as the oil manufacturer recommends 40:1, Stihl is good oil. I would probably go to 40:1 with Penzoil, but the bottles have that nice 8oz mark on them, makes 32:1 easy. No thinking involved

NHPower-- I really not sure where my needles are, (never checked) but if I had to guess I would say about 3/4 on low & 2 on high. Just start out with 2+ on the high and 1.5 on the low and go from there.
I'm no expert either, but have learned through trial and error over the last 30 yrs. I ALWAYS remember my big mistakes

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Danny Allen,

You have the attitude and outlook of someone that knows how to take care pf an engine by using common sense and care. You truly undersand the factors that are involved with tuning a gasser and are not afraid to make your own decision. Kudos, because you've earned them.

You're absolutely correct in stating that someone elses needle settings will bear little or no relevance on the settings for someone elses engine. Understanding that each locale will be different in atmospheric condition and pressures assures that you know a "factory setting" cannot be used for safe and effective tuning. The Stihl oil will work just fine forever should you decide to stay with it. Your plugs will let you know if you need to change the ratio at all, but what you have noted says the oil is fine but could be a touch richer for a better safety margin.

You want the engine to hit peak rpm on a vertical upline. If an engine is *****g out the rpm on a horizintal line and falling off some on the upline it's at the lean side of things.

HNPower,

When you get the opportunity, make a change from Amsoil and go to BelRay or Pennzoil Air Cooled at a 50-1 ratio. I'm not going to run through all the oil debates again but will say that the BelRay will permit cooler running of your engine. No "whys" or comparisons, it just does. It's also easier to obtain and costs less.

The true experts in this forum that I know can easily claim the title are D. Hanson, PeReivers, RCIGN, and RC Bugman. There are a couple of others but I can't remember their names at the moment. The rest of us are just people that do, or have been doing, this stuff for a long time and made the expensive mistakes a long time ago.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

Dan, when you are adjusting the needle valve, a short run will not reveal the true color on the sparkplug. One need to do at least 1 full flight (12mins). By the end of the 12 mins run, the engine is already cooked. Like I said before, the engine gave no indication of lean run. It just broke down. Therefore, I must be very careful with the needle settings and not go past a certain point.
Since this 110 is normal operating temperature is borderline with the destructive temperature range of the metal used for the cylinder. Only a smallest mistake will scrore the cylinder and renders it defective. I don't want to take anymore chance in playing around with it. If the engine has more cooling fins to keep the temperature more stable, I wouldn't be too worry.
With the truditional aluminum cylinder, adjustment the engine is easy. Anyone can do it without worry of destroying it. But with this engine, I'm scrared.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

I'll switch to Pennzoil Air Cooled next time to see if my engine runs any cooler.

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

If you were to use a thermo couple under the plug you would find that the 110 does not run all that hotter than any other engine on the market. I "feel" the fin area is adequate. You must allow for proper air flow to realize cooling efficiency. I have also noticed that my 110 will cool down much quicker and not heat soak like other engines I have had, so I am "guessing" that the fin design might be more efficient when set up properly.
I have no hard evidence of this, just observations.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

--- edited out --- bad info

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

Actually, there are no hitec in fin design. The temperature is a function of cooling fin area. BME tried to achieved light weight by reducing the quantity of metal used. As a result, the number of cooling fins are reduce. In my opinion, reducing the cooling fins too much is bad engineering. This reduces the robustness and quality of the engine. In the past (pre 70's) a good product is seen as a product that performs good and quality is a small factor. At the present, a good product not only include good performance, it also include quality, dependability, reliablity and customer service. Time has changed.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Many of the "other" engines that have more cooling fins ar so simply because the cylinders are "off the shelf" products that are normally used for "industrial engine" applications and are not specifically intended for R/C aviation. You can pick them up at any saw or mower repair shop just as they come on the engine. With few exceptions, engines that are custom designed and manufactured for our use in R/C have reduced fin areas because they are not required to achieve adaquate and effective cooling in our applications. That is the only reason for the fin area differences.

To have an and engine "lock up" indicates that the needles were set extremely lean and that it was run that way for quite some time. This has happened once or twice before, and in each case the owner stated that it was only run for either a very brief period of time or that the needles were set correctly. In at least one instance where the engine was returned it required that the engine be placed in a vice and giant channel locks be used to break the weld that occured between the pistons and the cylinders. That particular engine, according to the owner, had not been run hard, had the needles set correctly, had used the proper oil ratio, etc., etc....No, it was not replaced for free because the owner was not at all`credible in his assertions. Nobody believed him.

The 110 is very sensitive in needle adjustments and it's more difficult than other engines to properly set the needles. However it can be done with patience and knowledge. RTK has and idea on making the situation a lot easier while possibly extracting a little more power from the engine. It will require some changes to the carb installation and will have a cost assocated with it, but should be well worth it when it's completed.

From here on out I'll leave this one with RTK because I learned not to bother trying to teach engineers a long time ago. My experience has consistently shown that it can't be done.

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

You can't get an accurate reading with a hand held device. Read the directions that come with any unit. You must calibrate the unit to the surface because they all reflect differently.
Besides the only true reading is in the air when the plane is flying.
Not being mean or anything, just relaying information from the guy's in the know and what I have learned.

Being a engineer I am sure you are aware of this though.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

Please reveal the secret on modify the carb to get better performance on the engine. I will sure to try it when my engine is no longer in warranty.
However; i disagree that the off the shelf cylinder have more cooling fins. I found the oposite. Air cooled engine required more cooing fins than any other engines to keep the temperature in check. Checkout 3w, zdz, DA. They all have considerable more cooling fins than stock cylinders like sacks cylinder which is used in brison, fox, fpe.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Like I said, I give up.

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

I do know some of the engines you are referring to, but I have found the exact opposite
How's that Brison's fin area compare Pat??

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

RTK, on the ground, the temperature of the will be higher than in the air. The engine is more prone to heat damage than in the air. Why is the engine only damage in the air ? because the runtime is much longer in the air. If you run the engine on the ground at full throttle at the same needle setting, it will overheat much quicker than in the air.
The handheld optical thermal meter is not extremely accurate - that's true - but it is all relative, as long as I use the same measurement instrument on all engines under test.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

I owned 2 brison engines and 1 fox. The cooling fins on these engines are far spaced like on the BME, but longer (more surface area). The DA, ZDZ has the same surface area on each fins, but the number of fins are doubles + the fins on top of the cylinder too. These stock cylinders (brison) required a lot of openings on the cowl to properly cool it. I found that on the single cylinder, I needed to expose at least 3 fins to cool it. As for DA and ZDZ, I didn't expose any fins through the cowl. Just the opening on the cowl at the front is enough, and it is running under 200F.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

You don't have to agree with me on anything. This is just informations. I don't want to say bad things about the product I'm using because I may have to sell it later. But, facts are facts and peoples are not stupid. Lets just focus on how to improve the performance of engine. I just want to live with the things I have and want to know how to deal with it.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

The Brison fin area is exactly as it is when you go the the saw shop. It's greater that that found on BME, and DA engines. Couldn't tell ya about ZDZ or the actual fin count between one and the other. As I recall, 3w uses a fairly standard jug. I'll verify or refute the 3w part in a couple weeks.

I think the "out of warranty" statement above says an awful lot about the vociferous discussion that's taking place here. I have no inclination to go into material types used and thermal radiation properties. I developed the ability to generally try to trust the people that make and test the engines more than those that calculate the numbers and draw the pictures. I've had to correct far to many of their mistakes to make the products work in the real world. They always refuse to admit that they could be wrong, but also always seem to incorporate the changes that were given to them in later product applications. This after they were always quick to inform me and others that since we weren't engineers we could not be right[:@]

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

My last comment here.

Wrong!
Different engine cylinder surfaces/coatings/colors will reflect differently, giving false readings if not calibrated correctly for each different surface. I have the little hobbico handheld like you, Read the Directions and see for yourself if you do not believe me. I am not making this up, just reading what the engineers that made the product tell me.

BY

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

If you are not using either a data logger or an in flight telemetry system that's accurate and true you don't have any idea at all what temperature your engines are running at. If you are using a temp gun to take a reading after a landing and interpolating the data obtained between pre-take off temps and post landing temps... Aww, I'm not going to say it because it would be deleted by the moderators.

OTH, I've found that the Brison engines are quite easy to keep relatively cool and within reasonable operating temps and do not require as much effort as many others.

C-Ya

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

I don't want to argue with you. You are entitled to your own opinion. Just explain to me 1 thing. Why is BME has to justified in its website that its engine has no overheating issue while no other engine manufacturer in the market needs to justify their engine.
You are going to say, because of rumors. Now answer why is the rumor so strong that BME needs to justify.
You are going to say, it's customer error causing the engine overheat. Then explain why is the same customers making the same errors on other engines don't complain.