SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
08-23-2007, 03:12 AM
#76
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: aerohelipilot
Mike
Will any of these toward bottom of page work? they are 2mm bore 8T on long and the other is shorterer with a lip.
http://www.helihobby.com/html/blade_...ARTIP6152-8-20
Mike
Will any of these toward bottom of page work? they are 2mm bore 8T on long and the other is shorterer with a lip.
http://www.helihobby.com/html/blade_...ARTIP6152-8-20
Thanks anyway. I've given up on finding a stock item and just ordered the material to make about 50 of them.
Mike
08-23-2007, 12:11 PM
#77
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Redmond,
OR
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Thats great Mike I hope we will have a chance to purchase them directly from you. I have everything coming but the gears right now
Great Job and Keep us posted
Great Job and Keep us posted
08-23-2007, 12:35 PM
#78
Junior Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Wow all I can say is congratulations on a job well done and thank you Mike.
One quick question though, I'm flying a roswell flyer using an external receiver so how/where would I attach the 30 ohm resistor?
Thanks again,
Pat
One quick question though, I'm flying a roswell flyer using an external receiver so how/where would I attach the 30 ohm resistor?
Thanks again,
Pat
08-23-2007, 02:26 PM
#79
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: aerohelipilot
Thats great Mike I hope we will have a chance to purchase them directly from you. I have everything coming but the gears right now
Great Job and Keep us posted
Thats great Mike I hope we will have a chance to purchase them directly from you. I have everything coming but the gears right now
Great Job and Keep us posted
Pat: I am not familiar with the roswell flyer. The documentation file shows the schematic connections for the DF (the 30 ohm resistor connects to the negative terminal of the battery connector).
Mike
08-24-2007, 05:28 AM
#80
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Updated Documentation package:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Brushless Documentation Rev E[/link]
Mike
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Brushless Documentation Rev E[/link]
Mike
08-24-2007, 07:58 AM
#81
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre,
FL
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Great job on the updates Mike [sm=thumbs_up.gif]
I won't be able to attempt any of this until at least next weekend, but I'm looking forward to it.
Rusty
I won't be able to attempt any of this until at least next weekend, but I'm looking forward to it.
Rusty
08-26-2007, 02:36 PM
#82
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
Those are interesting possibilities. I could not find more detailed information on the winding resistance or efficiency vs current curves. The problem I see is that the first motor might be too fast for the 12 inch props with 5.5 gear ratio. The second motor might not draw enough current to allow good efficiency and power. It is hard to say without more data. I might order one of each for testing since both appear to have some potential. I would not recommend ordering four of either one since I do not know how well they would work.
Mike
ORIGINAL: msarid
Mike
Towerhobbies P\N are:
1. Ammo 20-30-2650
2. Ammo 20-40-2080
Moti
Mike
Towerhobbies P\N are:
1. Ammo 20-30-2650
2. Ammo 20-40-2080
Moti
Mike
I tested both of those motors. They work but have higher current than the Feigao motors. The Ammo motors are also more expensive. The smaller 20-30-2650 motor drew about 20% more current and the 20-40-2080 motor drew about 10% more current. These measurements were at full throttle. The 20-40-2080 motor weighs about 3/4 oz more than the Feigao but I would recommend it over the smaller 20-30-2650. The smaller one might be OK if you use 11" blades and a higher gear ratio. Of course, the Feigao motors are the better choice if you can find a source to ship to your country.
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Current Brushless Documentation (Rev E)[/link]
Mike
08-26-2007, 03:00 PM
#83
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: petah tikva, ISRAEL
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
Moti,
I tested both of those motors. They work but have higher current than the Feigao motors. The Ammo motors are also more expensive. The smaller 20-30-2650 motor drew about 20% more current and the 20-40-2080 motor drew about 10% more current. These measurements were at full throttle. The 20-40-2080 motor weighs about 3/4 oz more than the Feigao but I would recommend it over the smaller 20-30-2650. The smaller one might be OK if you use 11" blades and a higher gear ratio. Of course, the Feigao motors are the better choice if you can find a source to ship to your country.
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Current Brushless Documentation (Rev E)[/link]
Mike
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
Those are interesting possibilities. I could not find more detailed information on the winding resistance or efficiency vs current curves. The problem I see is that the first motor might be too fast for the 12 inch props with 5.5 gear ratio. The second motor might not draw enough current to allow good efficiency and power. It is hard to say without more data. I might order one of each for testing since both appear to have some potential. I would not recommend ordering four of either one since I do not know how well they would work.
Mike
ORIGINAL: msarid
Mike
Towerhobbies P\N are:
1. Ammo 20-30-2650
2. Ammo 20-40-2080
Moti
Mike
Towerhobbies P\N are:
1. Ammo 20-30-2650
2. Ammo 20-40-2080
Moti
Mike
I tested both of those motors. They work but have higher current than the Feigao motors. The Ammo motors are also more expensive. The smaller 20-30-2650 motor drew about 20% more current and the 20-40-2080 motor drew about 10% more current. These measurements were at full throttle. The 20-40-2080 motor weighs about 3/4 oz more than the Feigao but I would recommend it over the smaller 20-30-2650. The smaller one might be OK if you use 11" blades and a higher gear ratio. Of course, the Feigao motors are the better choice if you can find a source to ship to your country.
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Current Brushless Documentation (Rev E)[/link]
Mike
Thank you for your info. Unitedhobbies will receive the Feigao motor in the beginning of Spt. so i will wait. Again thank for your help.
I already have all the parts for the mod.(except the motor
)BTW, did somebody know were I can find the Fiegao motors except bphobbies?
Have a great weekend
Moti
08-26-2007, 10:50 PM
#84
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Today I used the Brushless Converted DF to take some video and stills. I had TI enabled for all these flights and the maximum height reached was just over 250 feet. Even with a 5 mph wind, it flew great with the full payload of camera and altimeter. Coming down was a real joy compared to the lower powered brushed DF. The video and stills are everybit as good as those obtained from the brushed DF.
Here's a sample section of the video:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/DFBL1a.wmv]Video from Brushless Flight[/link]
And here are links to full resolution stills for the three samples shown below:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/P1060431trims.jpg]Still 1[/link]
[link=http://www.af9y.com/P1060864trims.jpg]Still 2[/link]
[link=http://www.af9y.com/P1060852trims.jpg]Still 3[/link]
And I will keep the lasted Brushless Conversion Documentation included in my posts:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Brushless Conversion Documentation[/link]
Mike
Here's a sample section of the video:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/DFBL1a.wmv]Video from Brushless Flight[/link]
And here are links to full resolution stills for the three samples shown below:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/P1060431trims.jpg]Still 1[/link]
[link=http://www.af9y.com/P1060864trims.jpg]Still 2[/link]
[link=http://www.af9y.com/P1060852trims.jpg]Still 3[/link]
And I will keep the lasted Brushless Conversion Documentation included in my posts:
[link=http://www.af9y.com/BrushlessConversionRevE.mht]Brushless Conversion Documentation[/link]
Mike
08-28-2007, 01:13 PM
#85
Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sioux Falls,
SD
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Mike,
Very nice pictures and movie. The movie was very smooth, did you run it through any stabilization software?
Thanks,
John
Very nice pictures and movie. The movie was very smooth, did you run it through any stabilization software?
Thanks,
John
08-28-2007, 04:30 PM
#86
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: , GA
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Hello!
I'm very new here at RC universe, but I'm glad I found you guys. I just purchased a used DraganFLyer Vti Pro from Ebay and hopefully will learn to fly it very soon. The idea with the brushless motors is an awesome idea, thanks Mike! The movie made by Mike in the last post is great, has very good quality.
Mike, do you guys use the standard cam that comes with the DF flyer, or you use a better set up for aerial system. Your pictures are very nice, and I would be more than happy to have such nice rezults in the future.
Thanks all!
Appreciate your work and help!
Peter
I'm very new here at RC universe, but I'm glad I found you guys. I just purchased a used DraganFLyer Vti Pro from Ebay and hopefully will learn to fly it very soon. The idea with the brushless motors is an awesome idea, thanks Mike! The movie made by Mike in the last post is great, has very good quality.
Mike, do you guys use the standard cam that comes with the DF flyer, or you use a better set up for aerial system. Your pictures are very nice, and I would be more than happy to have such nice rezults in the future.
Thanks all!
Appreciate your work and help!
Peter
08-28-2007, 11:40 PM
#87
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Blackdragan: Thanks. Yes, I always use deshake post processing. Details were contained in the "Another Custom Mount" thread:
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5967964/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm]Deshake Setup[/link]
Peter360: Thanks. I have the SAVS camera and dual diversity TX/RX system but have never used it. I've always used the little Panasonic DMC-FX07 camera. My custom mount and details about the camera is also contained in the above thread (mostly in the 1st and 2nd pages).
Mike
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5967964/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm]Deshake Setup[/link]
Peter360: Thanks. I have the SAVS camera and dual diversity TX/RX system but have never used it. I've always used the little Panasonic DMC-FX07 camera. My custom mount and details about the camera is also contained in the above thread (mostly in the 1st and 2nd pages).
Mike
08-30-2007, 03:46 AM
#88
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York,
NY
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Great work Mike,
Finding this thread is quite amazing to me. I'm new to the fab world of Helis and purchased a little Blade CX2 about 7 months ago and have since purchased a T-rex 600. My ultimate goal is to explore the world of aerial photography and had hoped to use the T-rex as a cameraship but unfortunately the task of actually learning to fly this thing is proving to be more than what I had expected. In the past couple of weeks I've explored the use of quadrocopters and ran across several companies with VERY VERY expensive solutions. I feel very fortunate to have stumbles across this thread which I've read from cover to cover and I, we appreciate all of the time an effort you've put into making a great device better. I will be shadowing your modification to the letter but I do have 2 questions:
1. I will be ordering the standard [link=http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/DF-VTI/RC-HELICOPTERS-DRAGANFLYER-VTI.html]Draganflyer V Ti[/link] (without video option) I'm curious to know if your mod will work on this model.
2. What is the purpose of the "Optical Isolator Board" If it's not a bother, could you please explain it's function (thanks!)
3. I currently have the Spektrum DX7 2.4Ghz transmitter and AR7000 2.4Ghz receiver...have you explored modding the DF to use 2.4Ghz?
Finding this thread is quite amazing to me. I'm new to the fab world of Helis and purchased a little Blade CX2 about 7 months ago and have since purchased a T-rex 600. My ultimate goal is to explore the world of aerial photography and had hoped to use the T-rex as a cameraship but unfortunately the task of actually learning to fly this thing is proving to be more than what I had expected. In the past couple of weeks I've explored the use of quadrocopters and ran across several companies with VERY VERY expensive solutions. I feel very fortunate to have stumbles across this thread which I've read from cover to cover and I, we appreciate all of the time an effort you've put into making a great device better. I will be shadowing your modification to the letter but I do have 2 questions:
1. I will be ordering the standard [link=http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/DF-VTI/RC-HELICOPTERS-DRAGANFLYER-VTI.html]Draganflyer V Ti[/link] (without video option) I'm curious to know if your mod will work on this model.
2. What is the purpose of the "Optical Isolator Board" If it's not a bother, could you please explain it's function (thanks!)
3. I currently have the Spektrum DX7 2.4Ghz transmitter and AR7000 2.4Ghz receiver...have you explored modding the DF to use 2.4Ghz?
08-30-2007, 04:53 AM
#89
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: MORENOENNYC
Great work Mike,
Finding this thread is quite amazing to me. I'm new to the fab world of Helis and purchased a little Blade CX2 about 7 months ago and have since purchased a T-rex 600. My ultimate goal is to explore the world of aerial photography and had hoped to use the T-rex as a cameraship but unfortunately the task of actually learning to fly this thing is proving to be more than what I had expected. In the past couple of weeks I've explored the use of quadrocopters and ran across several companies with VERY VERY expensive solutions. I feel very fortunate to have stumbles across this thread which I've read from cover to cover and I, we appreciate all of the time an effort you've put into making a great device better. I will be shadowing your modification to the letter but I do have 2 questions:
1. I will be ordering the standard [link=http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/DF-VTI/RC-HELICOPTERS-DRAGANFLYER-VTI.html]Draganflyer V Ti[/link] (without video option) I'm curious to know if your mod will work on this model.
2. What is the purpose of the "Optical Isolator Board" If it's not a bother, could you please explain it's function (thanks!)
3. I currently have the Spektrum DX7 2.4Ghz transmitter and AR7000 2.4Ghz receiver...have you explored modding the DF to use 2.4Ghz?
Great work Mike,
Finding this thread is quite amazing to me. I'm new to the fab world of Helis and purchased a little Blade CX2 about 7 months ago and have since purchased a T-rex 600. My ultimate goal is to explore the world of aerial photography and had hoped to use the T-rex as a cameraship but unfortunately the task of actually learning to fly this thing is proving to be more than what I had expected. In the past couple of weeks I've explored the use of quadrocopters and ran across several companies with VERY VERY expensive solutions. I feel very fortunate to have stumbles across this thread which I've read from cover to cover and I, we appreciate all of the time an effort you've put into making a great device better. I will be shadowing your modification to the letter but I do have 2 questions:
1. I will be ordering the standard [link=http://www.rctoys.com/rc-toys-and-parts/DF-VTI/RC-HELICOPTERS-DRAGANFLYER-VTI.html]Draganflyer V Ti[/link] (without video option) I'm curious to know if your mod will work on this model.
2. What is the purpose of the "Optical Isolator Board" If it's not a bother, could you please explain it's function (thanks!)
3. I currently have the Spektrum DX7 2.4Ghz transmitter and AR7000 2.4Ghz receiver...have you explored modding the DF to use 2.4Ghz?
1) The V TI uses the same Electronics as the SAVS so it should work fine.
2) The Optical Isolator Board takes care of the floating ground of the ESC used to power the brushless motor. The Draganflyer normally interfaces to the brushed motors by pulse width modulation of the current with a HexFet switch to ground. Without the optical isolator, there would be a secondary ground path where current could flow around intended switching path. Even worse, the currents from all four motors would be mixing into that secondary ground path.
3. There is another thread "It's alive ... on 2.4 Ghz" by 13BV3 which discusses how he was able to modify a 2.4 Ghz receiver module for the DF.
Also, be sure to order the additional square frame for the V TI. It provides a great deal of stability to the x-frame. I would also recommend that you get use to flying the DF with the brushed motors before upgrading to the brushless version or converting to 2.4 Ghz. I don't think the Draganflyer is any easier to fly than the helicopters. You just have to bear down and practice for at least a few weeks. I still remember how proud I was to keep it hovering in my 10' x 10' porch area for a whole minute. The learning curve improved considerably after that.
Mike
08-31-2007, 07:35 AM
#90
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: petah tikva, ISRAEL
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
2) The Optical Isolator Board takes care of the floating ground of the ESC used to power the brushless motor. The Draganflyer normally interfaces to the brushed motors by pulse width modulation of the current with a HexFet switch to ground. Without the optical isolator, there would be a secondary ground path where current could flow around intended switching path. Even worse, the currents from all four motors would be mixing into that secondary ground path.
Hi Mike
Can we use the attached optical isolator for the brushless mode?
have a great weekend
Moti
http://www.medusaproducts.com/Opto/opto001.htm
08-31-2007, 02:58 PM
#91
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: msarid
Hi Mike
Can we use the attached optical isolator for the brushless mode?
have a great weekend
Moti
http://www.medusaproducts.com/Opto/opto001.htm
Hi Mike
Can we use the attached optical isolator for the brushless mode?
have a great weekend
Moti
http://www.medusaproducts.com/Opto/opto001.htm
There is a good possibility that optical isolator module would work. But you would have to by four (one for each motor esc) and you would also have to order three "Y" cables (or a 4 to 1 cable) that allows the one receiver output from the DF to connect in parallel to each of the four optical isolators. Again, I cannot say for sure but it should likely work.
Also, I know you have been waiting to order the Feiago motors when they become available at United Hobbies. I have just ordered another motor for testing which could be as good as (or maybe even better than) the Feiago motors:
[link=http://rcworldofplanes.net/prodView.asp?idproduct=918]Potential Motor Alternative[/link]
It should be here any day and I will post the results as soon as I finish testing it. Changing the gear ratio to 6.6:1 does not look practical without changing out the DF spur gear and motor mount so I am no longer investigating that. I'm hoping this new motor might be a better match for the existing 5.5:1 ratio.
Mike
08-31-2007, 03:31 PM
#92
Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: petah tikva, ISRAEL
Posts: 87
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
Moti,
There is a good possibility that optical isolator module would work. But you would have to by four (one for each motor esc) and you would also have to order three "Y" cables (or a 4 to 1 cable) that allows the one receiver output from the DF to connect in parallel to each of the four optical isolators. Again, I cannot say for sure but it should likely work.
Also, I know you have been waiting to order the Feiago motors when they become available at United Hobbies. I have just ordered another motor for testing which could be as good (or maybe even better than) the Feiago motors:
[link=http://rcworldofplanes.net/prodView.asp?idproduct=918]Potential Motor Alternative[/link]
It should be here any day and I will post the results as soon as I finish testing it. Changing the gear ratio to 6.6:1 does not look practical without changing out the DF spur gear and motor mount so I am no longer investigating that. I'm hoping this new motor might be a better match for the existing 5.5:1 ratio.
Mike
ORIGINAL: msarid
Hi Mike
Can we use the attached optical isolator for the brushless mode?
have a great weekend
Moti
http://www.medusaproducts.com/Opto/opto001.htm
Hi Mike
Can we use the attached optical isolator for the brushless mode?
have a great weekend
Moti
http://www.medusaproducts.com/Opto/opto001.htm
There is a good possibility that optical isolator module would work. But you would have to by four (one for each motor esc) and you would also have to order three "Y" cables (or a 4 to 1 cable) that allows the one receiver output from the DF to connect in parallel to each of the four optical isolators. Again, I cannot say for sure but it should likely work.
Also, I know you have been waiting to order the Feiago motors when they become available at United Hobbies. I have just ordered another motor for testing which could be as good (or maybe even better than) the Feiago motors:
[link=http://rcworldofplanes.net/prodView.asp?idproduct=918]Potential Motor Alternative[/link]
It should be here any day and I will post the results as soon as I finish testing it. Changing the gear ratio to 6.6:1 does not look practical without changing out the DF spur gear and motor mount so I am no longer investigating that. I'm hoping this new motor might be a better match for the existing 5.5:1 ratio.
Mike
Thank you for your respond. I have long discussion with unitedhobbies and bottom line is that they can not supply the motors
so i will wait for your new motor results .
FYI I try to order the motor but there is not enough motor in stock
Have a nice day
Moti
08-31-2007, 08:45 PM
#93
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: msarid
Thank you for your respond. I have long discussion with unitedhobbies and bottom line is that they can not supply the motors
so i will wait for your new motor results .
FYI I try to order the motor but there is not enough motor in stock
Have a nice day
Moti
Thank you for your respond. I have long discussion with unitedhobbies and bottom line is that they can not supply the motors
so i will wait for your new motor results .
FYI I try to order the motor but there is not enough motor in stock
Have a nice day
Moti
I just talked with the owner of rcworldofplanes. He is looking at getting more stock of both GWS and/or Feiago motors. I told him that I would let him know the result of the tests so that he could decide on what motors to stock. It sounds like he is interested in being a supplier and would offer a 10% discount for an order of four motors.
Also, I want thank you for finding those optical isolators. I may order a set to see how well they work. Assuming they do, it makes the whole conversion almost a "plug and play" modification. I know that many wanting to do the conversion were turned off by having to build that little optical isolator board.
Mike
08-31-2007, 10:52 PM
#94
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre,
FL
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Hi Mike,
I spent about the last 10 hours messing with the BL conversion, and am pretty close to success. At the moment, everything seems to be working OK, but the motors are backwards. Seeing as there's a 50 50 chance of getting these right, I wasn't at all surprised that ALL of mine are backwards...
I initially tried a different method of spliting the throttle signal. Since I use a 7404 hex inverter chip to flip my RX signal from the Futaba, I figured I could use the other 5 inverters on the chip to split the throttle into 4 signals (invert channel 3, send the output to 4 inverters, get 4 normal signals out). I tried this with one esc, and a normal receiver, and it seemed to work fine. Unfortunately, it was a big waste of time for the DF, because it was REALLY erratic.
I finally scrapped that silly idea, and started working on your opto-isolator board plans. At the moment, that's working fine, and once I swap a couple leads on every stinkin motor, it should fly. I did find an error on your drawing that you might want to correct though. The opto-isolator drawing is correct, however I believe the pin number labels are not. The way I'm looking at it, the labels for pin number 4 and 6 should be swapped everywhere they occur.
Finally, I got a bad ESC in my order. Fortunately, I almost always order spares, so I actually got 5 ESCs. When programming the 3rd ESC, it popped, and started burning when I plugged in the programmer [X(] It wasn't even hooked to main power at the time, and it appears there's just a dead short on the power and ground leads of the ESC throttle output cable. Fortunately, the spare is working fine.
Hopefully, I'll have this thing flying tomorrow.
Cheers,
Rusty
I spent about the last 10 hours messing with the BL conversion, and am pretty close to success. At the moment, everything seems to be working OK, but the motors are backwards. Seeing as there's a 50 50 chance of getting these right, I wasn't at all surprised that ALL of mine are backwards...
I initially tried a different method of spliting the throttle signal. Since I use a 7404 hex inverter chip to flip my RX signal from the Futaba, I figured I could use the other 5 inverters on the chip to split the throttle into 4 signals (invert channel 3, send the output to 4 inverters, get 4 normal signals out). I tried this with one esc, and a normal receiver, and it seemed to work fine. Unfortunately, it was a big waste of time for the DF, because it was REALLY erratic.
I finally scrapped that silly idea, and started working on your opto-isolator board plans. At the moment, that's working fine, and once I swap a couple leads on every stinkin motor, it should fly. I did find an error on your drawing that you might want to correct though. The opto-isolator drawing is correct, however I believe the pin number labels are not. The way I'm looking at it, the labels for pin number 4 and 6 should be swapped everywhere they occur.
Finally, I got a bad ESC in my order. Fortunately, I almost always order spares, so I actually got 5 ESCs. When programming the 3rd ESC, it popped, and started burning when I plugged in the programmer [X(] It wasn't even hooked to main power at the time, and it appears there's just a dead short on the power and ground leads of the ESC throttle output cable. Fortunately, the spare is working fine.
Hopefully, I'll have this thing flying tomorrow.
Cheers,
Rusty
09-01-2007, 12:26 AM
#95
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: 13BRV3
Hi Mike,
I spent about the last 10 hours messing with the BL conversion, and am pretty close to success. At the moment, everything seems to be working OK, but the motors are backwards. Seeing as there's a 50 50 chance of getting these right, I wasn't at all surprised that ALL of mine are backwards...
I initially tried a different method of spliting the throttle signal. Since I use a 7404 hex inverter chip to flip my RX signal from the Futaba, I figured I could use the other 5 inverters on the chip to split the throttle into 4 signals (invert channel 3, send the output to 4 inverters, get 4 normal signals out). I tried this with one esc, and a normal receiver, and it seemed to work fine. Unfortunately, it was a big waste of time for the DF, because it was REALLY erratic.
I finally scrapped that silly idea, and started working on your opto-isolator board plans. At the moment, that's working fine, and once I swap a couple leads on every stinkin motor, it should fly. I did find an error on your drawing that you might want to correct though. The opto-isolator drawing is correct, however I believe the pin number labels are not. The way I'm looking at it, the labels for pin number 4 and 6 should be swapped everywhere they occur.
Finally, I got a bad ESC in my order. Fortunately, I almost always order spares, so I actually got 5 ESCs. When programming the 3rd ESC, it popped, and started burning when I plugged in the programmer [X(] It wasn't even hooked to main power at the time, and it appears there's just a dead short on the power and ground leads of the ESC throttle output cable. Fortunately, the spare is working fine.
Hopefully, I'll have this thing flying tomorrow.
Cheers,
Rusty
Hi Mike,
I spent about the last 10 hours messing with the BL conversion, and am pretty close to success. At the moment, everything seems to be working OK, but the motors are backwards. Seeing as there's a 50 50 chance of getting these right, I wasn't at all surprised that ALL of mine are backwards...
I initially tried a different method of spliting the throttle signal. Since I use a 7404 hex inverter chip to flip my RX signal from the Futaba, I figured I could use the other 5 inverters on the chip to split the throttle into 4 signals (invert channel 3, send the output to 4 inverters, get 4 normal signals out). I tried this with one esc, and a normal receiver, and it seemed to work fine. Unfortunately, it was a big waste of time for the DF, because it was REALLY erratic.
I finally scrapped that silly idea, and started working on your opto-isolator board plans. At the moment, that's working fine, and once I swap a couple leads on every stinkin motor, it should fly. I did find an error on your drawing that you might want to correct though. The opto-isolator drawing is correct, however I believe the pin number labels are not. The way I'm looking at it, the labels for pin number 4 and 6 should be swapped everywhere they occur.
Finally, I got a bad ESC in my order. Fortunately, I almost always order spares, so I actually got 5 ESCs. When programming the 3rd ESC, it popped, and started burning when I plugged in the programmer [X(] It wasn't even hooked to main power at the time, and it appears there's just a dead short on the power and ground leads of the ESC throttle output cable. Fortunately, the spare is working fine.
Hopefully, I'll have this thing flying tomorrow.
Cheers,
Rusty
I'm not surprised that the 7404 hex inverter did not work since it does not isolate the power and ground of each motor from one another and from the receiver.
On that ESC, I also ordered a spare and ended up using it. During one of my early test flights I crashed the unit at near full throttle using the non-folding blades. Apparently that cause the one motor to exceed the maximum current draw from the ESC but not main 15 amp fuse. It did not hurt the motor but it did damage the ESC and I had to replace it. I'm thinking about adding 7.5 amp fuses for each of the ESCs but since I've not had a problem in several hours of brushless flying, I've put it off for now.
I'm most excited to hear of your first flying experience with the brushless conversion. I'll send you my phone number by PM and will be happy to discuss any issues you might have during the first test.
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6316400/tm.htm]DF Brushless Conversion Documentation[/link]
Mike
09-01-2007, 01:33 AM
#96
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Battery Update:
This evening I was able to test the larger 2100 mAh Battery with the Brushless DF. Even with the heavier battery, it flew the 21 ounce payload test weight for 7 Minutes! This was using the 11" blades and is more than twice the time achieved with the 1320 mAh battery using 12" blades. The big difference here is that the 2100 mAh Battery has less voltage drop under load and is being discharged at less than half of it's max C rating. I bet it will be able to fly my normal camera payload for 20 mins. The motors were hot to the touch but the ESC modules were only slightly warm. I am most impressed with the 2100 mAh Thunderpower battery and the little balanced charger. A very nice upgrade from the original 1320 mAh battery and charger.
Mike
This evening I was able to test the larger 2100 mAh Battery with the Brushless DF. Even with the heavier battery, it flew the 21 ounce payload test weight for 7 Minutes! This was using the 11" blades and is more than twice the time achieved with the 1320 mAh battery using 12" blades. The big difference here is that the 2100 mAh Battery has less voltage drop under load and is being discharged at less than half of it's max C rating. I bet it will be able to fly my normal camera payload for 20 mins. The motors were hot to the touch but the ESC modules were only slightly warm. I am most impressed with the 2100 mAh Thunderpower battery and the little balanced charger. A very nice upgrade from the original 1320 mAh battery and charger.
Mike
09-01-2007, 10:53 AM
#97
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre,
FL
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
I'm not surprised that the 7404 hex inverter did not work since it does not isolate the power and ground of each motor from one another and from the receiver.
I'm not surprised that the 7404 hex inverter did not work since it does not isolate the power and ground of each motor from one another and from the receiver.
I got your email, and I'll give you a ring when I get this all working. I'm not sure how much time I have to play with it this weekend, though I might just make time.
As for the isolation factor of the ESCs, how do people with multi-engine electric planes handle this? I assume there must be a common solution, but a quick search didn't turn up anything. The opto-isolator that Moti found would be a fix, but even they don't mention multi-engine planes as a potential use. If the ESCs didn't have BEC, would the isolation still be needed? I'm guessing it would, since there would almost certainly still be ground connected. Fortunately, your opto board works dandy
One other question about the rev E documentation- the programming ESC picture shows no lights for "start mode". The default is "normal", but that doesn't give a very smooth or slow initial rpm. I changed mine to "slow", and it's much better. Just curious what you're using. Also, I never get any light on "music/LiPo cells". I'm sure that doesn't matter though.
Rusty
09-01-2007, 12:38 PM
#98
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Huntertown, IN
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: 13BRV3
Hi Mike,
I got your email, and I'll give you a ring when I get this all working. I'm not sure how much time I have to play with it this weekend, though I might just make time.
As for the isolation factor of the ESCs, how do people with multi-engine electric planes handle this? I assume there must be a common solution, but a quick search didn't turn up anything. The opto-isolator that Moti found would be a fix, but even they don't mention multi-engine planes as a potential use. If the ESCs didn't have BEC, would the isolation still be needed? I'm guessing it would, since there would almost certainly still be ground connected. Fortunately, your opto board works dandy
One other question about the rev E documentation- the programming ESC picture shows no lights for "start mode". The default is "normal", but that doesn't give a very smooth or slow initial rpm. I changed mine to "slow", and it's much better. Just curious what you're using. Also, I never get any light on "music/LiPo cells". I'm sure that doesn't matter though.
Rusty
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
I'm not surprised that the 7404 hex inverter did not work since it does not isolate the power and ground of each motor from one another and from the receiver.
I'm not surprised that the 7404 hex inverter did not work since it does not isolate the power and ground of each motor from one another and from the receiver.
I got your email, and I'll give you a ring when I get this all working. I'm not sure how much time I have to play with it this weekend, though I might just make time.
As for the isolation factor of the ESCs, how do people with multi-engine electric planes handle this? I assume there must be a common solution, but a quick search didn't turn up anything. The opto-isolator that Moti found would be a fix, but even they don't mention multi-engine planes as a potential use. If the ESCs didn't have BEC, would the isolation still be needed? I'm guessing it would, since there would almost certainly still be ground connected. Fortunately, your opto board works dandy
One other question about the rev E documentation- the programming ESC picture shows no lights for "start mode". The default is "normal", but that doesn't give a very smooth or slow initial rpm. I changed mine to "slow", and it's much better. Just curious what you're using. Also, I never get any light on "music/LiPo cells". I'm sure that doesn't matter though.
Rusty
Yes, the start mode needs to be set to soft. That LED was flashing from the programming state and the camera happen to catch it in the off state. It is actually quite important for the start mode to be in the soft space because of the PWM input to the ESC. That has also been fixed in the Rev F documentation. I'm actually holding the release of the Rev F documentation to see if you find any other mistakes or clarification that might be needed. I've been so close to this that it is easy to miss something.
Strange that you don't get the "music/LiPo cells" light. I wonder if your programming card has a bad LED. It should not matter anyway.
Normally the ESCs do not need an optical isolation except for unique noise isolation. This DF modification operates much differently than a normal ESC/Brushless motor system because the input power to the ESC is a pulsing voltage. Normally the ESC is connected directly to a battery and operates with a steady voltage. With this modification, the motor speed is being controlled by the PPM signal from the RX and the PWM voltage to the ESC. That PWM voltage at the ESC MUST be isolated from the DF receiver and the other motors.
Mike
09-01-2007, 03:41 PM
#99
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Navarre,
FL
Posts: 235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
Strange that you don't get the "music/LiPo cells" light. I wonder if your programming card has a bad LED. It should not matter anyway.
Strange that you don't get the "music/LiPo cells" light. I wonder if your programming card has a bad LED. It should not matter anyway.
I thought about a bad LED too, but when I hit the down button to move through the different lines, it skips right over the music/LiPo cell line. In other words, the flashing LED moves from line 6 to 8 with only one push of the button.
I actually wondered why you were getting the music/LiPo cell option, since you have NiCd listed as the battery type. I figured that was the reason line 7 seemed to be disabled for me. Did you try leaving the battery at LiPo earlier? If so, maybe the line 7 option got left enabled afterwards. Who knows.
While we're on the subject of battery type, may I assume you used "NiCd" as a way to keep the cutoff voltage as low as possible?
The only other thing that didn't seem to work exactly as described was the programming sequence. I plug the ESC and battery into the programming card, then plug the main battery into the DF with the switch on. I would have expected to get lights on the programming card at this point, but I don't. I then have to arm the DF, and move the throttle to full (no ESC plugs connected except to the programming card, so no motors turning). Once I do that, the ESC seems to wake up (again), and now I get lights. I don't think the 2.4 GHz RX has anything to do with this, but that's the only difference I can think of.
ORIGINAL: Old Man Mike
This DF modification operates much differently than a normal ESC/Brushless motor system because the input power to the ESC is a pulsing voltage. Normally the ESC is connected directly to a battery and operates with a steady voltage.
This DF modification operates much differently than a normal ESC/Brushless motor system because the input power to the ESC is a pulsing voltage. Normally the ESC is connected directly to a battery and operates with a steady voltage.
Makes better sense now. Thanks.Now wait for the next post [8D]
Rusty
09-01-2007, 04:20 PM
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Christchurch, NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: SUCCESS! - A Brushless DF Conversion
Hi Mike,
Nice work on the DF motor conversion. Nice to see that ingenuity is still alive and well.
Just curious about the camera you're using: Does this model give video out in both the still and movie record modes? Purpose for this would be for RF video downlink to the ground.
Cheers ADI
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/jameskea/
Nice work on the DF motor conversion. Nice to see that ingenuity is still alive and well.
Just curious about the camera you're using: Does this model give video out in both the still and movie record modes? Purpose for this would be for RF video downlink to the ground.
Cheers ADI
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/jameskea/