pgroom_68

Hey again Sven,

We will see just how honest they are then I didn't specify how many blades I was after - only "sets of 4 x Walkera Lama400D (red) blades"

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]

pgroom_68

Hey again Sven,

I have a question re. the first link that you posted (quoted above). The only words that I can translate (without an online translater) say 5mm. Is this an EXTERNAL diameter? I ordered [link=http://www.rc711.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=22_32&products_id=163]a couple of these[/link] which have a 3mm internal diameter - so should fit nicely

If I find that they are not the correct part that I want, I will just put them in my parts box for my Walkera Dragonfly #4.

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]

erdnuckel2

Peter, the collars you ordered throug your link are the ones I would take instead of the collar that is included in the RC711 metal kit to prevent the inner shaft from sliding down. (because those have the little edge the connects to the bearing - which the collar in the metal kit doesnt.
The other one which I put a link for is a collar with a 5mm INNERdiameter - it is thought to prevent the OUTERshaft from sliding down ... you know, to replace the collar with this annoying glued in phillips screw, that usually goes bust at the first try of exchanging an outer shaft. This one will be fixed with two grub screws instead of one glued in phillips screw - which should get rid fo the destructive attitude for good.

Regards,
Sven

Buz

Hi guys....

I flew my BOL for the first time afer putting the metal upgrade and extension kit. Here are my initial impressions after 9 minutes of fairly radical flying...

1. The helicopter is twice as sensitive to input as it used to be... and I'm still using the stock fly bar.

2. Do not try to take off slowly. Every time I try the BL tips over. Run up the blades and then punch it to get off the ground.

3. Do not fly on anything less than a full charged battery, or the BOL will turn into an uncontrollable monster.

4. Spread the metal blade grips and leave the blades fairly loose.

That's all for the moment. I find the upgrade kit to be very easy to install unless you have to drill out a grub screw to get the bottom gear off. $" % ^_)!!#@#! But, after prying the top grips far enough open to accept a stock blade made me decide to leave the bottom grips stock. Same with the swash plate.

As for flying, the modified BOL is, at first a bit scary. It responds much faster when you give it input... and it's very fast. But, I can still get the blades to collide by going fast forward, then yanking reverse too hard. The bottom blades can still reach the rear of the fuselage also. I whacked the tail off of this one on the first flight! So, now I have two "shorties". The bottom blades hit the body exactly where the horizontal stab goes through. It is impressive though... much better performance... and in 99% of the cases... I can't get the rotors to collide..... however, I did manage to fly into myself! Whack!

Most importantly, I never got it into the Death Slide. That alone is worth putting the extension kit in it!

Buzz

pgroom_68

Hey again BUzz,

The only diff between the outcomes of you and me is the blade tightness (I have even reverted back to original flybars for a while) - so I have to blame THAT for your bird still "strikeing". Try tightening them a bit - but of course leave them so they can nearly move by themselves! This will stiffen up the blades within the grips and hopefully less strikes result

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]
P.S. I hope the Xtreme blades are stiff enough to make this an obsolete topic soon!

pgroom_68

Hey again Sven,

Thanks for clearing that up for me

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]

retired92

Greeting All,

Glad to be back, have been on vacation for awhile, but I have been keeping up with all the happenings. I am in the process of installing my entended shaft and metal upgrade kit. I had to grind out the useless grub screw for the "A_gear", what fun! Now I have a question for you, what is the best way to remove the push rod linkages that go from the swash plate to the lower blade arms? I am a little hesitant to just force them off, so I ask for some guidance..........Thanks again as usual......Don

erdnuckel2

Hi Don,

the "best" way that I know is using one of the special pliers you can get for it. (they start around 10$) otherwise Iwould not know another way but forcing them off somehow ... personally Iprefer the pliers (Ibought one of those multitool pit sets once - and it included the pliers ... I'm glad it did)

regards,
Sven

retired92

Hi Sven,

Thanks for the quick response. I have ordered a tool set so will wait for a while longer, also found that the lower arm set of my upgrade kit has a bent connecting ball, will have to wait on that as well after I talk to RC711 to see about a replacement part. I guess this is just part of this hobby............................Don

Buz

Wellllllll.............. I flew the BOL after doing the shaft extension mod, and my god what an uncontrollable nightmare it became. At first it was fine, a bit slow on take off, but ok... so I flew a battery pack and and made a lot of moves that would have smashed the blades together without the extension kit.

But, now I cannot control it at all. It drags and tips over to the left and I have to hold full right side input to take off.... then, I can't turn. It takes all of the rudder and all of the trim to make it hover.

What the heck have I done? That's a brand new helicopter and I've destroyed the body now. It just is not going to fly with that extension on it.
The top cap on the metal head flew off this morning and vanished..... with the fly bar following. I found the fly bar, but I am really disappointed in the way this thing seems to have a mind of it's
own. Has anyone else had this problem? I have 3 more kits, but now I'm hesitant to install them if that's the best I can get out of them.

Buzz

RC_Addiction

Hi all,

welll this problem is actually happening to me after installing the brushless upgrade i bought at ebay. I came to the conclusion that the 3-in-1 is used to work with the stock settings and weight. now that you have changed mayor harware on it you must play with the gain and proportional knobs but what a nightmare that is wow!!!! don;t mess with the "no name knob under the plastic cover" or you will have the most painful headache trying to balance all three knobs to get a nice flying heli again. good luck.

So far my brushless experience has not been very pleasant. no heat? motors do get HOT! not to the point where they would burn your finger if you touch them but they do get hot.

Fly time improvement? hmmm not so sure, peter when you fly yours let me know if you got more fly time out of it please.

More power? I was impressed the time i changed to xtreme motors from stock motors, this time...i miss my xtremes. anyways...i didn't spend that much money ...just time and gained experience.

Read you guys around.

Fernando,

rusty63

Hi Buzz , Have you adjusted swashplate and Top blade Flybar tracking . Russell

pgroom_68

Hey again all,

Buzz and Fernando - here is my 2 cents on your probs:
When your birds arrive in the post they have been already set-up for the variables - including the blades - which it is running!
Yip. I just re-read both of your posts, and it is definately a set-up/adjustment problem that you are encountering. The 4in1 "prop" and "gain" adjustments are a good place to start - [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=7350619]here's a link[/link] for them (the same as for the Lama4)
The left/right/forward/backwards tilt adjustments must be made by moving the control arms - [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8876563]here's a "swashplate adjustment" link[/link]
The "undercover" adjustment that Fernando refered to is the last place that you want to adjust as: 1. it is a very fine adjustment, 2. a combination of the mixer and gyro amounts that the other two adjustments can make - so DON'T MESS WITH IT!
The other adjustment that you can make to improve smoothness of flight is the upper blade link (flybar link) which adjusts active blade tracking by twisting the link on a thread - in a similar way to the control arms - to lengthen or shorten the distance that the link creates between the flybar and upper blade grips to keep the leading edge biting into the air at a set pitch. When this adjusted the blur at the end of the upper blade plane (best viewed from the side) becomes solid-looking 'cause both of the top blades have the same pitch - and are exactly at 90º to the main axis - the optimum point!

Both of these problems (and their solutions) are related to eachother - so by adjusting the two pots on 4in1 in small increments you can make a perfectly flyable bird again - it just takes a bit of patience!
Remember that in order for any "prop" adjustments to take affect the lipo has to be unplugged and replugged - resetting the 4in1. The gyro "gain" adjustments can be done without this extra step.

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]
P.S. When my "ultimate" arrives I will of course give you guys a run-down on how it behaves/compares!
P.P.S. As Dane indicated [link=http://www.rtf-heli.com/ESKYBIGLAMAbrushless.html](second paragraph)[/link], BL motors still get hot - but do not need to cool down between lipos - so potentially you can just change lipos and fly again and again and again....

pgroom_68

Hey again Buzz,

Just a separate thing for you to recheck also. The gear A screw must locate itself onto the flat part of the new inner shaft - or it will slip after a short time and not deliver all of the motor power to the blades. This may be intermittant also which makes it seem more confusing. It is essential to line up the flat area of shaft A with the hex screw that secures it, screw it in TIGHT - really crank down metal to metal contact (but watch that you don't strip those playdough hex screws) and recheck it often. This is one of the reasons that thread lock/glue is used from the factory.

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]

pgroom_68

GREAT NEWS EVERYONE!

I just got a response from my latest Miracle-mart email (which I sent only 1 hour ago) - and Kim replied that the Extreme blades will be AVAILABLE - not just listed -
on coming MONDAY 24 August '09

At last - that is just two days away - Yessssss!

Peter[sm=shades_smile.gif]
P.S. Get those paypal accounts in order now.

sgbfly

Hi Buzz,

a couple of thoughts for you:

Having to use full rudder and trim just to make it hover makes me think either something is binding or a motor is failing. The stock motors are not great in terms of reliability and robustness and a crash can push them over the edge.

Falling over on take off. Suggests its not trimmed correctly or swashplate problem or centre of gravity wrong. That said a longer shaft reduces take off stability. Did you thread lock everything including swashplate ball links? They can work lose with vibration and then become bent so check for this. They have an allen key socket - wind them out a bit and retighten with some loctite medium / 243.

Good luck,

Simon

Buz

It's amazing how stupid I can be sometimes. I pulled the old shaft out... slid the new one in.... and had all of the problems above.

It's my own fault! When I took the inner shaft out and put the extended one in, I somehow moved the top of the swash plate out of the GIANT hole in the bottom... and, I was flying it that way! The swash plate was pulled apart. So, took the bottom gear off again, moved the shaft over and wiggled the top of the plate into the bottom. Tightened it all back up and .... it now hovers with the trims centered. Perfect flight again! The only thing I lost was the cap on the metal rotor top. Had to use one out of another head kit.

Thanks for all of the suggestions...

Buzz

pgroom_68

Hey again Buzz,

Great news matey! No worries - I'm glad you got it and are flying away............

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]

RC_Addiction

Glad Buzz found the fix to his bird. In my case i'm still tweaking my 3-in-1 and thanks to this helpful info from you Peter, i'm getting there!! Thanks again for another helpful stack of info !!!

On the other hand, i'm very but veeery tempted to get [link=http://www.r2hobbies.com/proddetail.php?prod=rcps81803]THIS GYRO[/link] and [link=http://www.dionysusdesign.com/product_info.php/products_id/185?osCsid=9d4aa9a381e1500c6e3794d5d0ebfa5c]this COAXIAL MIXER[/link] to get rid of my nightmare (3-in-1) since i think i have weakened the first "no name" potentiometer with excessive turns. I would almost for sure buy those if somebody assured me that the coaxial mixer would work under the BOL's 11.1v setup. This way i would almost have complete knowledge of how a coaxial helicopter is built from parts. What do you think peter and guys?

Pictures are to give you guys a brief idea of my brushless convertion experience (in converting it) a problem i ran into was that i had to use the BOL's stock pinions and drill a bigger hole through them (brushless motos shaft is 3.17mm against 2.0 mm from stock and xtremes) because the ones the seller sent me would not mesh with the BOL's gears perfectly and stripped one of them badly (lucky me i had a replacement handy!).

thanks for reading, read you guys later.

PD = correct me if i'm wrong but i'm pretty sure this bl convertion kit i bought is the same AEO one we commented about before (yestine was the first i remenber did) only it does not have the [link=http://www.aeorc.com/english/syssite/home/shop/1/pictures/productsimg/big/211.jpg]stickers on the ESC's[/link] seen on those pictures on the web?

pgroom_68

Hey again Fernando,

There is a few online stores that sell pinions with diff. teeth and bore holes - [link=http://www.rc711.com/shop/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pinion&x=3&y=1 3]rc711.com[/link] and [link=https://www.ushobbysupply.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=pinion&osCsid= 5a11b2b0f21394820e8233f339e16bfb&x=8&y=9]USHobbySupply.com[/link] are a couple of examples for future ventures

It really sounds like you are coming to grips with BL set-ups now. I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you - but the coaxial mixer that you linked is designed for 2-cells are far as I can see. To be sure send an email to the site and ask if it is a suitable one for 11.1V.
I will leave it to Sven to tell us the diff. between Head-Holding gyros and Head-Lock gyros.... (he can explain it better anyway)

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]
P.S. Do you remember how much $ the AEO set cost back then?

erdnuckel2

Hi Peter, Hi all ...

is there anybody beeing a bit sarcastic Did I say something wrong - or is this:

"I will leave it to Sven to tell us the diff. between Head-Holding gyros and Head-Lock gyros.... (he can explain it better anyway)" just a trick question/ trick statement ??

Isn't head holding gyro and head lock gyro just two slightly different expressions for the same item At least that is the impression Iwas under ever since I started commiting my time to this hobby.
And as far as the Dionysus mixer is concerned - as i am an absolute learner with everything connected to electronics ... but:
If you do a blbl setup, the mixer get its power from the ESC (which has a BEC with a certain A rating and also only allows a 5V current to get to the receiver - so why would the mixer when it is connected to the ESC - and (i hope i am right on this) passes the current on to the receiver - get more than this 5v current??

THis is actually a serious question of mine ...

Oh, and here is a link to one of the wiring diagrams I am referring to: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...mentid=2706667 (which I shall delete in case i violate any rules of conduct here ...)

Regards,
Sven

RC_Addiction

Quick response before going to work:

I've being researching and according to what i read, the ESC's have a built-in BEC that powers the gyros, mixer and receiver! so no 11.1v directly feeds the receiver or anything else (only the ESC's i guess)

An aprox 5V current from the ESC's feeds the receiver and everything else.

The motors do get a gradual voltage i guess from 3v - 11.1v depening on the given amount of throttle.

This is only a theorical understanding that i'm still trying to digest in my brain LOL so i could be wrong!

Thanks Peter and Sven. I have to hit the road. Will read you and respond at night when i come back.

fernando,

pgroom_68

Hey again Sven,

No I wasn't being sarcastic at all! I thought that you would have a better grasp of the gyros than I would - and I knew you would check on this thread ('cause it is your custom) - I was being totally serious!
Re. the bolded type - I am not completely sure also - so the best way to find out is to email the seller....

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]
P.S. Fernando, your reading is right, and you seem to have got it correct as far as I know.
P.P.S. Sven, there is a slight difference between how HH and Head-Lock gyros work - but I don't know the details.

pgroom_68

Hey again Fernando,
I don't know much about BECs and ESC voltages I must admit! What have you read on the subject Sven and Erwin?

Peter[sm=49_49.gif]

Ber60

Just my 2 cents guy's

The gyro question:

Head-Holding and Head-Lock are just two slightly different expressions for the same gyro , there is a difference however between "Rate" and "HH" these are the two conditions a good HH gyro has.
If the gyro is in rate mode it will only fight the torque of the heli meaning the wind will push it out its heading and when doing figure flight the tail will weathervane behind the heli unless pilot change.
If the gyro is in HH mode then is it "locked" in a heading and will "hold " this heading at any time unless the pilot gives the signal to change heading

The Brushless setup

Most electronics in our hobby works on a 5V voltage so any V-Tail mixer , Esc ,RX , servo's ect will work.
The 5V is produced by the Esc internal BEC (Battery Eliminator Circuit) or by a external BEC that is then fed in to the RX fromwhere it is distributed to other parts
Be aware some more expencive Esc's/Bec's are capable to give 6V for faster servo reaction but not all electronics can handle 6V.

Esc's

This is how they work: if used with a 11.1V battery it will create pulses with variable lenght (and frequency) but at 11.1V , it is the lenght of these pulses that we change with the stick , short pulses low rpm , long pulses high rpm but still always at 11.1V
There are two major kinds of esc's , one for DC motor and one for a AC motor.
The stock BOL has two DC motors so the esc has only two leads going to the motor
For a BL motor ( AC motor ) you have 3 leads going to the motor, this motor has a far better efficiency thus will not get so hot as a DC motor.


The best diagram to follow is that of the Lama4 it is the most accurat.

A warning with the BL setup: only 1 esc can deliver the 5V to the RX the other esc's red/positive/+5V lead should be removed


Pfffeewww, I hope it is still readable

Erwin