Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
12-24-2002, 09:56 PM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
I was just wondering about the torque effect on Yellow P-38 with G-38's on them. Am I going to need a gyro or is it a nice feature to have? Would the gyro just be used on take offs or would it help in an engine out situation? Since I don't have any experience with twins or a gyro, any opinions would be helpfull.
Thanx in advance
Kirk out
Thanx in advance
Kirk out
12-24-2002, 10:05 PM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
I have a sport .25 twin and the gyro is a real help. Take off's are dead straight - just throttle up and she tracks straight as an arrow, no rudder input required.
If you loose an engine don't rely on it completely, but it will give you that extra bit of time as to what to do next.
Just make sure you get as much rudder movement as possible and to start, set the gyro to a fairly sensitive setting, as you get used to it you can back the gyro off a little.
Stuart
If you loose an engine don't rely on it completely, but it will give you that extra bit of time as to what to do next.
Just make sure you get as much rudder movement as possible and to start, set the gyro to a fairly sensitive setting, as you get used to it you can back the gyro off a little.
Stuart
12-25-2002, 02:55 AM
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gyros
I disagree on the gyro issue and agree on the need to use the rudder.
Yes, I fly coordinated with the rudder at all times, and that WILL NOT necessarily save you with a P-38!!!!! Now before I hear all the cases of people with fantastic saves, let me say that there are exceptions to every rule, but the number of saves on a twin and single engine out situations as far fewer that the crashes.
Go to rcwarbirds.com and the twins form. Go to the bottom of page one to the post on "P-38". It was a Yellow P-38. Make up your own mind from others problems.
No gyros are not absolutely necessary, but what have you spent on the plane that a little added insurance would not be worth it?
Two of these planes went down in one week, that we have posts on in various forums.
I have owned four P-38's including two right now. The first did not survive the engine out. I went back to learn to fly twins and experimented with gyros. They give you the time to react to an engine out situation. A P-38 will snap roll faster than you can react due to small rudders and wide engine spacing. The gyros dampen the movement to give you time to react. Go to the end of the twins forum at rcwarbirds for more on gyros.
Yes, I said gyros, the plural. One for rudders and one for the ailerons.
Now having scared many people, nothing looks or sounds as cool as the P-38 in the air, so I keep doing it to myself.
Good Luck,
Twinman
Yes, I fly coordinated with the rudder at all times, and that WILL NOT necessarily save you with a P-38!!!!! Now before I hear all the cases of people with fantastic saves, let me say that there are exceptions to every rule, but the number of saves on a twin and single engine out situations as far fewer that the crashes.
Go to rcwarbirds.com and the twins form. Go to the bottom of page one to the post on "P-38". It was a Yellow P-38. Make up your own mind from others problems.
No gyros are not absolutely necessary, but what have you spent on the plane that a little added insurance would not be worth it?
Two of these planes went down in one week, that we have posts on in various forums.
I have owned four P-38's including two right now. The first did not survive the engine out. I went back to learn to fly twins and experimented with gyros. They give you the time to react to an engine out situation. A P-38 will snap roll faster than you can react due to small rudders and wide engine spacing. The gyros dampen the movement to give you time to react. Go to the end of the twins forum at rcwarbirds for more on gyros.
Yes, I said gyros, the plural. One for rudders and one for the ailerons.
Now having scared many people, nothing looks or sounds as cool as the P-38 in the air, so I keep doing it to myself.
Good Luck,
Twinman
12-25-2002, 05:46 PM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
Holy moley, dude! You're not flying a Yellow P-38 as your first twin, are you? Getting all the multiple systems up and optimal on that baby really stressed my limits, and I've flown several other twins for years.
I agree with everything Twinman said. You should read all the excellent stuff he's written on this and other forums about twins, gyros, etc.
Bottom Line? If you could somehow gaurantee 100% that you would never lose an engine, then you don't need gyros. Most/all twins track fine on the ground and in the air with minimal stick input even without engine synch.
Which leads to my main point on twins, which is that knowing and working your engines right is really huge. Nothing brings a twin down faster than engine-out, and it's quite an art/science to sweat all the little details ON THE GROUND: too rich, too lean, fuel line anomaly, couldn't listen to one engine well 'cause the other one was running, ETC., ETC.. Ideally, you should even get to know a twin's engines by breaking them in on a single-engine plane, whereby a deadstick is just an annoyance, not a disaster.
Sure, there are a lot of great stories and advice about saving a twin with engine-out: gyros help, simulator time helps, flying with experienced twin pilots helps. Engine synch may or may not help. But the main thing is DON'T GO THERE! Keep your engines running.
Last thing on the Yellow P-38. Landing gear struts from Yellow are too weak. Get the Robart set.
mt
I agree with everything Twinman said. You should read all the excellent stuff he's written on this and other forums about twins, gyros, etc.
Bottom Line? If you could somehow gaurantee 100% that you would never lose an engine, then you don't need gyros. Most/all twins track fine on the ground and in the air with minimal stick input even without engine synch.
Which leads to my main point on twins, which is that knowing and working your engines right is really huge. Nothing brings a twin down faster than engine-out, and it's quite an art/science to sweat all the little details ON THE GROUND: too rich, too lean, fuel line anomaly, couldn't listen to one engine well 'cause the other one was running, ETC., ETC.. Ideally, you should even get to know a twin's engines by breaking them in on a single-engine plane, whereby a deadstick is just an annoyance, not a disaster.
Sure, there are a lot of great stories and advice about saving a twin with engine-out: gyros help, simulator time helps, flying with experienced twin pilots helps. Engine synch may or may not help. But the main thing is DON'T GO THERE! Keep your engines running.
Last thing on the Yellow P-38. Landing gear struts from Yellow are too weak. Get the Robart set.
mt
12-26-2002, 02:54 AM
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SCARY !
Twinman,
Thanx for all your input. That forum on rcwarbird about the P-38 is scary. Specially the crash site pictures. Since this is my first twin , I will have plenty of film of the takeoff. Hopefully I will have just as much of the landing(sucessfully). That sure is alot of money to pile it in if I loose an engine. I tried the P-38 on the GII simulator with an engine out situation. Never made it back to the feild...every time. I never new what engine went out. I only hope that it will give me enough warning in a slight yaw that I can detect first before she snaps on me. I do have one good thing in my favor... This plane has had quit a few flights on it.
Jeff Quesenberry will be at my side for the first flight. I have alot more confidence with him telling me what to do as my brain locks up and my thumbs are shaking... Drugs can't even do that to ya!!
My little Yellow P-38 is just a toy next to his planes.
I will keep you posted on the first flight in the spring...
P.s. Hey twinman? Why would I need a gyro on the ailerons?
Kirk out
Thanx for all your input. That forum on rcwarbird about the P-38 is scary. Specially the crash site pictures. Since this is my first twin , I will have plenty of film of the takeoff. Hopefully I will have just as much of the landing(sucessfully). That sure is alot of money to pile it in if I loose an engine. I tried the P-38 on the GII simulator with an engine out situation. Never made it back to the feild...every time. I never new what engine went out. I only hope that it will give me enough warning in a slight yaw that I can detect first before she snaps on me. I do have one good thing in my favor... This plane has had quit a few flights on it.
Jeff Quesenberry will be at my side for the first flight. I have alot more confidence with him telling me what to do as my brain locks up and my thumbs are shaking... Drugs can't even do that to ya!!
My little Yellow P-38 is just a toy next to his planes.
I will keep you posted on the first flight in the spring...
P.s. Hey twinman? Why would I need a gyro on the ailerons?
Kirk out
12-26-2002, 03:11 AM
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P-38
I really do not suggest the P-38 for the first twin.....under any conditions!!!
The rudders on the P-38 are not large enough to control the engine out. The gyro here helps, but is, alone not enough to contol the yaw. The original actually had the rudders enlarged prior to introduction.
The gyro for the ailerons is to control ( See Dampen in the dictionary) the snap roll that the plane will go into if you lose an engine. The combination of rudder and aileron gyros will dampen the problem long enough for the brain to get the throttle down before the plane is inverted and headed down.
When you lose one engine on this plane, the plane will yaw away from the running engine, this causes the wing on the running engine to rise.....quickly and the plane rolls over into a spin. The natural tendency to snap roll is worse on the P-38 due to the wide engine spacing.
Please check the engine reliability. Don't go with the false assumption that because the engines are gas, that they will not fail.
Also, as I am not sure of your previous skills, be aware that the plane will land faster than you are accustomed to.
You are invited to post your plane's picture at rcwarbirds gallery under fighters and P-38's.
Good Luck,
Twinman
The rudders on the P-38 are not large enough to control the engine out. The gyro here helps, but is, alone not enough to contol the yaw. The original actually had the rudders enlarged prior to introduction.
The gyro for the ailerons is to control ( See Dampen in the dictionary) the snap roll that the plane will go into if you lose an engine. The combination of rudder and aileron gyros will dampen the problem long enough for the brain to get the throttle down before the plane is inverted and headed down.
When you lose one engine on this plane, the plane will yaw away from the running engine, this causes the wing on the running engine to rise.....quickly and the plane rolls over into a spin. The natural tendency to snap roll is worse on the P-38 due to the wide engine spacing.
Please check the engine reliability. Don't go with the false assumption that because the engines are gas, that they will not fail.
Also, as I am not sure of your previous skills, be aware that the plane will land faster than you are accustomed to.
You are invited to post your plane's picture at rcwarbirds gallery under fighters and P-38's.
Good Luck,
Twinman
12-27-2002, 02:02 AM
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Twins...P-38
AlleyMutt.....its most prudent to get twin time with something more agile than a "Warbird" as a first twin.......say a Pica "Duelist" and put atleast a 100 or more flights on it with some flying with one engine out........as a general rule the reason a twin crashes after engine failure( Warbird) is caused by several reasons.....first is a high wing loadings followed by inadequate power for single engine performance.......Flying twin warbirds requires a much higher level of situational awareness......must be vigilant to when an engine fails......TwinMan.....Gyros are a good tool but cant take the place of flying skills....Most twin warbirds are upside down in a flash after an engine failure....a gyro wont stop that........but once an engine fails a gyro cant fly the plane back.......its probably simpler to pull power back and land immediately(If upside down as I've been....roll plane back over to wings level ....and land immediately...) for most pilots......The Ziroli P-38 flys fine on one engine(one of the few that do) if its powered correctly...my friends' has 4 engine failures out of 80 flts or so and flew fine on one even made several circuits before landing( no gyro)...adding a gyro is fine...just don't be complacent and expect it to sustitute for flying skills......Bill.... 
12-27-2002, 03:23 AM
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Gyros
warbirdz1
As an owner of two current 100" P-38's and two past one's, I beg to differ on the effect and or benefit of gyros. It sounds simple throttle back, but believe me, and unfortunately others, it is not that easy to get a P-38 out of an inverted flat spin. Can I, or your friend fly one on one engine.....most of the time yes, but that is not the rule for all. You said your friend has 80 flights, that is not a beginner, or a less experienced pilot.
It is the rest of the pilots that I am addressing.
I would agree that the gyros cannot take the place of experience........completely! I also strongly agree that the P-38 is not a beginners plane. Anyone who wants to fly one should, by all means, fly other twins with lighter wing loading and larger rudders first......a lot!!!! Do I use gyros on all my three other sport twins, no, not one.
What the gyros can do, is dampen the unexpected yaw to a point that we can gain control. The problem with twins, is that we are not sitting in the pilot's seat and cannot immediataly hear one engine sagging or the beginnings of a yaw and immediately react to the emergency. We are always behind the plane.
One last thought from my squeaky soap box..... We all, for the most part, have life insurance or health insurance??? Why????
Necessary?, no......a good idea?......that is for each pilot to decide.
As an owner of two current 100" P-38's and two past one's, I beg to differ on the effect and or benefit of gyros. It sounds simple throttle back, but believe me, and unfortunately others, it is not that easy to get a P-38 out of an inverted flat spin. Can I, or your friend fly one on one engine.....most of the time yes, but that is not the rule for all. You said your friend has 80 flights, that is not a beginner, or a less experienced pilot.
It is the rest of the pilots that I am addressing.
I would agree that the gyros cannot take the place of experience........completely! I also strongly agree that the P-38 is not a beginners plane. Anyone who wants to fly one should, by all means, fly other twins with lighter wing loading and larger rudders first......a lot!!!! Do I use gyros on all my three other sport twins, no, not one.
What the gyros can do, is dampen the unexpected yaw to a point that we can gain control. The problem with twins, is that we are not sitting in the pilot's seat and cannot immediataly hear one engine sagging or the beginnings of a yaw and immediately react to the emergency. We are always behind the plane.
One last thought from my squeaky soap box..... We all, for the most part, have life insurance or health insurance??? Why????
Necessary?, no......a good idea?......that is for each pilot to decide.
12-27-2002, 06:43 AM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
This is going to be a very different type of flying, and until you have experience it, it is difficult to prepare for it. You are going to get in some "weird" situations and you will only have a couple of seconds to figure out what is happening and respond. Don't lallygag around when an engine quits. It might feel O.K. at first. But know that you are going to bleed off speed and that speed is what is making your plane controllable. Set up and land like it is an emergency even if it does,'t feel like one!
I never used a gyro, and I am reluctant to do so, but it might be a good idea on such a nice ship. It might "free up" some brain cells.
I never used a gyro, and I am reluctant to do so, but it might be a good idea on such a nice ship. It might "free up" some brain cells.
12-27-2002, 09:11 AM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
Are any of you guys that are flying a P-38 reversing the engine rotation from 'scale' contra-rotation to counter-rotation? It seems to me that using contra-rotating props on a model will set you up for difficult single-engine handling even more than full-scale.
12-27-2002, 12:55 PM
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Opposite rotating props
Flyfalcons
Interesting idea. Had to think about it a while. (Ok, I had to go look at the plane) I assume that you are referring to the effect of torque, from the remaining engine, resisting the rolling action, in the engine out scenario.
In my case, no. On my 108" P-38, they rotate out (toward the wing tips) at the top per scale. ( Super Tigre 2500's can reverse via unbolting and rotating the front crankcase) My Yellow P-38
(Gas engines) does not have counter rotating props. ( Nor did the first two....rest in piece or pieces, as it were)
I have noticed that the sport twins I have, do roll faster one direction than the other.
The original prototype, full size P-38, did have inward rotating props, but they were reversed, prior to production, due to an airflow problem across the fuselage.
Hummm.....Wonder if I still have the earlier ST engines on one of my sport planes????.......Zinger Pusher props.......check you later......
Interesting idea. Had to think about it a while. (Ok, I had to go look at the plane) I assume that you are referring to the effect of torque, from the remaining engine, resisting the rolling action, in the engine out scenario.
In my case, no. On my 108" P-38, they rotate out (toward the wing tips) at the top per scale. ( Super Tigre 2500's can reverse via unbolting and rotating the front crankcase) My Yellow P-38
(Gas engines) does not have counter rotating props. ( Nor did the first two....rest in piece or pieces, as it were)
I have noticed that the sport twins I have, do roll faster one direction than the other.
The original prototype, full size P-38, did have inward rotating props, but they were reversed, prior to production, due to an airflow problem across the fuselage.
Hummm.....Wonder if I still have the earlier ST engines on one of my sport planes????.......Zinger Pusher props.......check you later......
12-27-2002, 05:17 PM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
P-Factor
Accelerated Slipstream
Spiraling Slipstream
Torque
all work against you when operating on a single engine that is rotating to the outside. That is why on traditional twin setups the left engine is the critical engine; its loss will have the greatest adverse effect on performance. Most training twins have counter-rotating engines, so that in the loss of either engine, performance loss will not be as bad. I'm just wondering if anyone is having better single-engine luck on the P-38 if they go with counter-rotating props. Might be worth some experimentation.
Accelerated Slipstream
Spiraling Slipstream
Torque
all work against you when operating on a single engine that is rotating to the outside. That is why on traditional twin setups the left engine is the critical engine; its loss will have the greatest adverse effect on performance. Most training twins have counter-rotating engines, so that in the loss of either engine, performance loss will not be as bad. I'm just wondering if anyone is having better single-engine luck on the P-38 if they go with counter-rotating props. Might be worth some experimentation.
12-28-2002, 01:40 PM
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BS
I own a Ziroli P-38 for 4 years and have no Gyro! It was also my 1st twin! The plane has over 100 flights and 4 eng outs due to different problems. All 4 times the plane made it back. If you fly the plane and react to it you have a good chance of getting it back. Dont let all the negative post deter you. If you want to use a gyro go ahead it wont hurt but you dont need one. Either way the plane will be fine. Mike
12-29-2002, 01:58 AM
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Alleymutt
Carey Here,
For those reading this post, I have just traded the Yellow to Kirk today. This was my first twin and I have asked the same ? about the use of the gyro. I decided to keep it in the plane as I aquired it a few months ago. No problems with the gyro and the plane flew great. Kirk, leave it in and try it for the first few flights and if you don't like it then remove it. Have fun with it buddy! Those 5 foot fly by's are a real thrill!
Carey Hook
For those reading this post, I have just traded the Yellow to Kirk today. This was my first twin and I have asked the same ? about the use of the gyro. I decided to keep it in the plane as I aquired it a few months ago. No problems with the gyro and the plane flew great. Kirk, leave it in and try it for the first few flights and if you don't like it then remove it. Have fun with it buddy! Those 5 foot fly by's are a real thrill!
Carey Hook
12-29-2002, 02:04 AM
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Thanx Mike
Mike... I needed that positive response!!! Sure I dont have any twin time under my belt. If I do start with a Pica Duelest, Is that really a true twin experience? I mean if it will fly on one engine out , what is that going to do for me? Any one suggest a twin I could try with G-38s in them for practice? Or at least OS-108s in them as I have a couple of them laying around.
I just picked up my Yellow P-38 today , thanx to CHOOK. He came along way to meet me with the deal. I am looking forward to flying it very soon. Our runway is still clear of snow right now...so maybe a little engine tweaking and taxi testing by the 1st of the year.
Thanx for all the responses.
Kirk out
I just picked up my Yellow P-38 today , thanx to CHOOK. He came along way to meet me with the deal. I am looking forward to flying it very soon. Our runway is still clear of snow right now...so maybe a little engine tweaking and taxi testing by the 1st of the year.
Thanx for all the responses.
Kirk out
12-29-2002, 04:41 AM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
As I'm building my ZP38 I am also bashing an old low wing Giant Ugly Stick into a twin. I started to do this as a break-in platform for my P38 engines and figured why not use it as a trainer. The wings front spars are 1/4 x 1/2 spruce full length. I have the engine spacing the same as the ZP38 and it should not take much reinforcing for this wing to hold the engines. That old G.U.S. wing was built like a tank. Have to build a new fuse though, undecided as to a single fuse (easier) or a squared up P38 style booms and pod (more in line with trainer idea)
12-29-2002, 05:13 PM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
Good luck with the P-38's. Keep us posted.
Get to know your engines! If you keep 'em both running, the Yellow P-38 is a pretty docile handler in the air...just a fast, heavy twin.
mt
Get to know your engines! If you keep 'em both running, the Yellow P-38 is a pretty docile handler in the air...just a fast, heavy twin.
mt
12-29-2002, 05:18 PM
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P-38 Simulator
Don't forget the G2 simulator. Engine-out P-38 flight can be done. It just requires a LOT of correct-sided rudder in a hurry, along with temperate input from all other sticks. Must be kind of realistic, since it makes my palms sweat when I practice.
mt
mt
12-30-2002, 06:12 AM
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Flying Eng out
I don't think that flying a Pica duelist is going to help you learn to fly a P-38. What you do need is experience flying Warbirds. Big Warbirds with gas engines. Learn how to handle a 30# plane like a Jug or Hellcat something that has a high wing loading. When you set up your controls mix in some rudder with your aileron's. It will make the plane easier to fly and it definitely helped me when i lost an Eng. Just realize that if you loose an Eng you need to land immediately and leave the gear in until you are on short final. Good luck. Mike
01-20-2003, 07:22 AM
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P38 First Twin..
Hy.. I LOVED reading that forum about twins .. i´m new to it ... i felt in LOVE with a P-38 .. and i´m building it from scratch... I´d like to know anythig you guys can tell me.. it´s a small plane.. (64" wing)... two 0.15 engines.. NO RUDDER ;-((((((
I´d like to know if I set up some Flaperon on my 6xa Radio.. or some flaps it´ll help my landing .. since i´ll be flying it alone because i have no instructor in my town.. and i´m a little scared after reading all those posts ;-)
tnks for any message ;-)..! but i´d like to say .. even after 800 bucks.. i´ll not quit twins that easy .. I´ll keep u guys posted after my first flight ...
tnks
Rodrigo Meira
I´d like to know if I set up some Flaperon on my 6xa Radio.. or some flaps it´ll help my landing .. since i´ll be flying it alone because i have no instructor in my town.. and i´m a little scared after reading all those posts ;-)
tnks for any message ;-)..! but i´d like to say .. even after 800 bucks.. i´ll not quit twins that easy .. I´ll keep u guys posted after my first flight ...
tnks
Rodrigo Meira
01-21-2003, 02:33 AM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
$800 wow your exchange rate must be horrible. 2 .15 motor here should be had for about $60 ea. Micro servos for $20-$25 ea (7 if you need flaps) I am not a big fan of flaperons and am not sure they are required at this size. I had a .40 sized p38 and although it landed a little fast I found no need for flaps. I have some hand launch .15 sized plans, no gear reduces the weight and you don't need a nose gear steering servo, reduces servos to 5 (2 eng, 2 ail, 1 elv). Using flaperons would also save weight if you thought you needed them. Build light.
01-21-2003, 09:05 AM
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Wheels ?..
Hy...
First.. about my exchange rate... well .. the micro servos are extremely expensive here... about 200 - 300 of my local currency .. what gives me about 100 U$... (the exchange rate is 1 U$ - 3.5 R$). ;-((..
I´d like to know .. if this plane.. hand launched.. you guys think it can be done with wheels?... some 2 1/2" or 2 1/4" ..??
i´ve just posted the plan in other post of mine.. if u wanna check it out ;-)!
tnks
Rodrigo Meira
First.. about my exchange rate... well .. the micro servos are extremely expensive here... about 200 - 300 of my local currency .. what gives me about 100 U$... (the exchange rate is 1 U$ - 3.5 R$). ;-((..
I´d like to know .. if this plane.. hand launched.. you guys think it can be done with wheels?... some 2 1/2" or 2 1/4" ..??
i´ve just posted the plan in other post of mine.. if u wanna check it out ;-)!
tnks
Rodrigo Meira
01-21-2003, 01:30 PM
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Do I need a Gyro on a Yellow P-38?
rmeira, I have spent some time in your wonderful country, where are you located? BTW, when I was there last (about 4 yrs ago) the $R was close to the US $, I did not know that your currency had been so severely impacted.
Jon L.
Jon L.
