OS 30 TEMP - HELL
06-05-2007, 06:04 PM
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RE: OS 30 TEMP - HELL
Hey everyone- so anyone have any other brand moter break in storys to share???
did you get low break in temps and still have your motor last a long time?
thanks-
did you get low break in temps and still have your motor last a long time?
thanks-
06-06-2007, 12:06 PM
#28
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RE: OS 30 TEMP - HELL
Savage LTD, you didn't mention (I think) if you let the engine run at wide open throttle during your break-in runs. From the amount of thanks you ran I can say if it wasn't running WOT then you haven't gotten much break-in effect.
Here is something I wrote a while back (under a different username here) because there is just so much misunderstanding about nitro engine break-in and general operating understanding. It mentions the proper break-in method and why. It is a little long but the info is soilid and anyone that wants to better understand nitro operation concept and break-in reasons I'm sure will find it useful:
START:
Idling an engine, or letting it run slow during break-in, and 1/4, 1/2 throttle is all incorrect. You want WOT (wide open throttle) after it warms up. YES WOT, even when it is brand new. Although you want it on the rich side at this early stage. WOT is in order to bring it up to the temp and fit that the sleeve was designed to run at. Anything less and you are just leading your engine to an early death.
Yes, running at WOT slightly rich, but not 4 stroking rich is the proper way to do it. The following explains the proper way and WHY it is the proper way. Here is some further explanation I wrote a while ago for newbie nitro guys that were still doing that incorrect idling method:
As for break-in, there is a whole lot of misunderstanding about this and basic engine operation. I have read and studied a lot of information on this and also by Dave Gierke who writes in RCCA and Model Airplane News (also by AirAge) about RC airplane and buggy nitro engines and he's an expert. As well as Paris Racing, Stephen Bess, Clarance Lee, etc, in the research I have done over the last few years. It will take some time to convince yourself to bring a new engine to WOT but when you start to understand it and why it is correct, you will realize just how many people are completely breaking the engine totally incorrectly.
It’s important to learn the theory about how these engines run (2 stroke ABC, ABN, AAC - we are not talking about nitro ringed engines here which are different), and how to break-in, especially because I see WAY TOO MANY people using the wrong procedure of idling many tanks of fuel through the engine or running it very slowly during break-in. That is unnecessary and damaging which I will explain. Although we use the term “break-in”, by its word alone it is misleading because people wrongly assume it means to slowly and gradually bring an engine to tune by idling tanks of fuel but you will see why this is incorrect and unnecessarily wastes fuel too! Please be patient and read further to understand.
These engines use a sleeve around the piston to make the seal (piston doesn't have a ring) and it operates properly only with sufficient heat so that the sleeve can expand to its designed operating size and fit. All engines will be tight - that’s what people call “pinch”, especially when new, so on the initial runs, you want to have it get up to temp, so it can run how it is was designed to. By the engine getting hot the sleeve expands to the size it was made to run around the piston - when it is not running it is contracted and that’s the pich or what some refer to compression. By idling tanks and tanks through, or running overly rich and cool, the sleeve just wears MORE against the piston because it is not hot enough to expand to its operating size. And by doing that you are prematurely wearing out and ruining your engine. The piston/sleeve is designed to operate at running temps. Not doing this by running cool and rich on the bench leads to premature wear. By idling away tanks of fuel I GUARANTEE you are doing more harm than good. As long as the engine is warmed up first, you don’t have to drag out bringing it up to temp when it is brand new. It wont hurt or damage the working parts. These engines are very simple 2 stroke machines. They do not have extensive moving parts such as valves, cams, lifters, springs, etc. or even piston rings (like 4 strokers) so all this extra gentle, overly rich, cool operation is completely unnecessary (and worse it’s harmful).
HOWEVER, the sleeve around the piston can be a delicate thing to maintain and it is not forgiving of improper treatment. And improper treatment of a piston and sleeve by running it at a temp it is not designed for is damaging. (either too cold or too hot, both are just as detrimental) Most often this is done by running it too rich which makes it too cold because the rich mixture doesn't generate enough combustion heat for proper sleeve expansion. Just as damaging can be an excessively lean run. If it is run overly lean for any length of time it will destroy the sleeve. (that is why fuels with castor oil as part of the lube mix are very good because they tolerate the too high heat of a very lean run and will help to save the sleeve if it is not run too lean for too long. but avoiding a lean run is essential when you know enough enough about engine tuning to avoid it)
Running a 2 stroke engine slow and rich makes it '4 stroke' which means it fires every other revolution, and that generates even less heat. It causes damage and wastes fuel as well! Using a fan is absolutely not necessary on it. Most important is to 'heat cycle' the engine at least 10 times to relieve the parts of manufacturing stresses. HEAT CYCLING REALLY IS WHAT BREAK IN IS ALL ABOUT. (I even think break-in should be called “Initial Heat Cycling” instead so that people understand what and why they are doing it.)
You run the engine in the car for 2 - 3 minutes at a time full throttle (yes, WOT, don’t baby it), ideally on a smooth paved level surface, after briefly warming up of course, and then shut down and repeat after the engine has fully cooled. Let it cool down completely. Heat cycling is the name of the game. You want it to come up to temp for a brief time - 2 to 3 minutes, and cool down and repeat. IMPORTANT: after shutting down, adjust the flywheel so that the piston is at BDC (bottom dead center) so that it does not get stuck in the contracting/cooling sleeve, as can often happen. (If the piston should accidentally get stuck in the sleeve, heat the cylinder with a heat gun which will expand the sleeve to free the piston from the sleeve.)
During these initial runs YOU WANT the temps to be at least 200 F but not above about 250 F. But don’t get carried away with temp gun testing - people often times chase their tails with temp guns because of variables of readings and also it’s really not that necessary. As long as you see some blue smoke from the pipe you know you are running rich enough. After break-in, running temps above about 250F is fine. (in fact nitro engines perform best when run 250-300. Below those temps they are less efficient and less powerful and more wear is occuring to the sleeve and piston because the sleeve is not fully expanded.. However, going by the mixture is more important than trying to measure temp with heat guns, etc. which you may wind up doing inconsistently. The mixture setting on the High Speed Needle is critical in the first runs. It should be a rich and not lean setting. However it should not be so rich that it 4 strokes. - 4 stroke operation means the excess fuel causes the glow plug to ignite the mixture every other stroke and is defined by a very burbling sounds when running. (Yes, two stroke glow ignition engines can “4 stroke” in the combustion cycle contrary to what you might think)
Also, to start a brand new engine it is sometimes worthwhile to heat the engine with a heat gun or hair dryer if it has a very tight piston/sleeve fit and you are having trouble turning it over to start it up. This will expand the sleeve some, and when you turn it over the piston will not excessively rub, or even get stuck in the sleeve (as sometimes can happen). Preheating really works well. You do want to run it on the rich side, but you want it to come up to temp also, just not more than 2-3 minutes in beginning runs, in order to keeps temps around 230 - 250. Listen carefully to the exhaust noise or â€note’, as you do not want it to be â€4 stroking’. If it is, it needs to be leaned slowly until it runs 2 stroke. You can tell it is 4 stroking if it is very “boggy” and “hesitant” in acceleration and running. If it is making that “burbling” sound then it is 4 stroking which means it is running too rich and therefore too cold. If you are getting boggy and burbling sound when you go to WOT turn the HSN very gradual increments and you will hear it at some point clear up with a clean 2 stroke sound.
Everyone thinks they have to run it super cool and check to be sure temps are low. That's not what it is about. The reverse is true! Cool operation is damaging operation. Little, if any, break-in will occur unless it is heat cycled properly.
The manufactures can’t make a piston/sleeve turn over smoothly at room temp, because when the engine runs the sleeve will expand and there will be no seal at operating temp. See how that makes sense?!
So preheat it if necessary and don't run it cool, and heat cycle it, and you'll be good to go! After you have done this several times then you can gradually lean out the HSN to get best performance, but it should then be richened up just rich of peak to ensure it lasts long too. Running it at max peak rpm will lead to the shortest useful life of the piston and sleeve. If racing that is fine but if you are just playing and bashing you may want to run just a little richer than that peak setting. Racers pistons and sleeves don’t last nearly as long because they race them so leaned out to get best performance, but you cant do that too long. After the HSN is set then it is time to set the low and/or mid range needles and idling setting.
I see a lot of people idle the engine for a tank and then they let it cool off thinking that they are "heat cycling" it. However, because they are not running it up to WOT it is not generating enough heat to be of any use to a breakin/heat cycle. So, inadvertently by idling they are just letting the engine sleeve and piston wear away from the cold tight fit that they are allowing to happen when idling away on the bench. Research has shown that basically no break-in effect takes place AT ALL unless the engine is allowed to come up to operating temp for at least 2 minutes. So if you are idling away and then let it cool there is zero break-in/heat cycle benefit. But if you want to wear away the sleeve and piston fit then idling will definitely do it for you.
So to paraphrase a proper break-in is:
run the engine for at least five 2-3 minutes runs bring the engine to WOT during those runs. Let it cool down between each run and make sure you move the piston to BDC by turning the flywheel manually.
If you use that method you will quickly, properly and efficiently break-in a new nitro ABC, ABN, AAC (non-ringed) engine.
I hope this is helpful!!
P.S. If you want to hear it from him, read Dave Gierke’s article in the January 2002 issue of “RC Nitro” magazine!
END
Here is something I wrote a while back (under a different username here) because there is just so much misunderstanding about nitro engine break-in and general operating understanding. It mentions the proper break-in method and why. It is a little long but the info is soilid and anyone that wants to better understand nitro operation concept and break-in reasons I'm sure will find it useful:
START:
Idling an engine, or letting it run slow during break-in, and 1/4, 1/2 throttle is all incorrect. You want WOT (wide open throttle) after it warms up. YES WOT, even when it is brand new. Although you want it on the rich side at this early stage. WOT is in order to bring it up to the temp and fit that the sleeve was designed to run at. Anything less and you are just leading your engine to an early death.
Yes, running at WOT slightly rich, but not 4 stroking rich is the proper way to do it. The following explains the proper way and WHY it is the proper way. Here is some further explanation I wrote a while ago for newbie nitro guys that were still doing that incorrect idling method:
As for break-in, there is a whole lot of misunderstanding about this and basic engine operation. I have read and studied a lot of information on this and also by Dave Gierke who writes in RCCA and Model Airplane News (also by AirAge) about RC airplane and buggy nitro engines and he's an expert. As well as Paris Racing, Stephen Bess, Clarance Lee, etc, in the research I have done over the last few years. It will take some time to convince yourself to bring a new engine to WOT but when you start to understand it and why it is correct, you will realize just how many people are completely breaking the engine totally incorrectly.
It’s important to learn the theory about how these engines run (2 stroke ABC, ABN, AAC - we are not talking about nitro ringed engines here which are different), and how to break-in, especially because I see WAY TOO MANY people using the wrong procedure of idling many tanks of fuel through the engine or running it very slowly during break-in. That is unnecessary and damaging which I will explain. Although we use the term “break-in”, by its word alone it is misleading because people wrongly assume it means to slowly and gradually bring an engine to tune by idling tanks of fuel but you will see why this is incorrect and unnecessarily wastes fuel too! Please be patient and read further to understand.
These engines use a sleeve around the piston to make the seal (piston doesn't have a ring) and it operates properly only with sufficient heat so that the sleeve can expand to its designed operating size and fit. All engines will be tight - that’s what people call “pinch”, especially when new, so on the initial runs, you want to have it get up to temp, so it can run how it is was designed to. By the engine getting hot the sleeve expands to the size it was made to run around the piston - when it is not running it is contracted and that’s the pich or what some refer to compression. By idling tanks and tanks through, or running overly rich and cool, the sleeve just wears MORE against the piston because it is not hot enough to expand to its operating size. And by doing that you are prematurely wearing out and ruining your engine. The piston/sleeve is designed to operate at running temps. Not doing this by running cool and rich on the bench leads to premature wear. By idling away tanks of fuel I GUARANTEE you are doing more harm than good. As long as the engine is warmed up first, you don’t have to drag out bringing it up to temp when it is brand new. It wont hurt or damage the working parts. These engines are very simple 2 stroke machines. They do not have extensive moving parts such as valves, cams, lifters, springs, etc. or even piston rings (like 4 strokers) so all this extra gentle, overly rich, cool operation is completely unnecessary (and worse it’s harmful).
HOWEVER, the sleeve around the piston can be a delicate thing to maintain and it is not forgiving of improper treatment. And improper treatment of a piston and sleeve by running it at a temp it is not designed for is damaging. (either too cold or too hot, both are just as detrimental) Most often this is done by running it too rich which makes it too cold because the rich mixture doesn't generate enough combustion heat for proper sleeve expansion. Just as damaging can be an excessively lean run. If it is run overly lean for any length of time it will destroy the sleeve. (that is why fuels with castor oil as part of the lube mix are very good because they tolerate the too high heat of a very lean run and will help to save the sleeve if it is not run too lean for too long. but avoiding a lean run is essential when you know enough enough about engine tuning to avoid it)
Running a 2 stroke engine slow and rich makes it '4 stroke' which means it fires every other revolution, and that generates even less heat. It causes damage and wastes fuel as well! Using a fan is absolutely not necessary on it. Most important is to 'heat cycle' the engine at least 10 times to relieve the parts of manufacturing stresses. HEAT CYCLING REALLY IS WHAT BREAK IN IS ALL ABOUT. (I even think break-in should be called “Initial Heat Cycling” instead so that people understand what and why they are doing it.)
You run the engine in the car for 2 - 3 minutes at a time full throttle (yes, WOT, don’t baby it), ideally on a smooth paved level surface, after briefly warming up of course, and then shut down and repeat after the engine has fully cooled. Let it cool down completely. Heat cycling is the name of the game. You want it to come up to temp for a brief time - 2 to 3 minutes, and cool down and repeat. IMPORTANT: after shutting down, adjust the flywheel so that the piston is at BDC (bottom dead center) so that it does not get stuck in the contracting/cooling sleeve, as can often happen. (If the piston should accidentally get stuck in the sleeve, heat the cylinder with a heat gun which will expand the sleeve to free the piston from the sleeve.)
During these initial runs YOU WANT the temps to be at least 200 F but not above about 250 F. But don’t get carried away with temp gun testing - people often times chase their tails with temp guns because of variables of readings and also it’s really not that necessary. As long as you see some blue smoke from the pipe you know you are running rich enough. After break-in, running temps above about 250F is fine. (in fact nitro engines perform best when run 250-300. Below those temps they are less efficient and less powerful and more wear is occuring to the sleeve and piston because the sleeve is not fully expanded.. However, going by the mixture is more important than trying to measure temp with heat guns, etc. which you may wind up doing inconsistently. The mixture setting on the High Speed Needle is critical in the first runs. It should be a rich and not lean setting. However it should not be so rich that it 4 strokes. - 4 stroke operation means the excess fuel causes the glow plug to ignite the mixture every other stroke and is defined by a very burbling sounds when running. (Yes, two stroke glow ignition engines can “4 stroke” in the combustion cycle contrary to what you might think)
Also, to start a brand new engine it is sometimes worthwhile to heat the engine with a heat gun or hair dryer if it has a very tight piston/sleeve fit and you are having trouble turning it over to start it up. This will expand the sleeve some, and when you turn it over the piston will not excessively rub, or even get stuck in the sleeve (as sometimes can happen). Preheating really works well. You do want to run it on the rich side, but you want it to come up to temp also, just not more than 2-3 minutes in beginning runs, in order to keeps temps around 230 - 250. Listen carefully to the exhaust noise or â€note’, as you do not want it to be â€4 stroking’. If it is, it needs to be leaned slowly until it runs 2 stroke. You can tell it is 4 stroking if it is very “boggy” and “hesitant” in acceleration and running. If it is making that “burbling” sound then it is 4 stroking which means it is running too rich and therefore too cold. If you are getting boggy and burbling sound when you go to WOT turn the HSN very gradual increments and you will hear it at some point clear up with a clean 2 stroke sound.
Everyone thinks they have to run it super cool and check to be sure temps are low. That's not what it is about. The reverse is true! Cool operation is damaging operation. Little, if any, break-in will occur unless it is heat cycled properly.
The manufactures can’t make a piston/sleeve turn over smoothly at room temp, because when the engine runs the sleeve will expand and there will be no seal at operating temp. See how that makes sense?!
So preheat it if necessary and don't run it cool, and heat cycle it, and you'll be good to go! After you have done this several times then you can gradually lean out the HSN to get best performance, but it should then be richened up just rich of peak to ensure it lasts long too. Running it at max peak rpm will lead to the shortest useful life of the piston and sleeve. If racing that is fine but if you are just playing and bashing you may want to run just a little richer than that peak setting. Racers pistons and sleeves don’t last nearly as long because they race them so leaned out to get best performance, but you cant do that too long. After the HSN is set then it is time to set the low and/or mid range needles and idling setting.
I see a lot of people idle the engine for a tank and then they let it cool off thinking that they are "heat cycling" it. However, because they are not running it up to WOT it is not generating enough heat to be of any use to a breakin/heat cycle. So, inadvertently by idling they are just letting the engine sleeve and piston wear away from the cold tight fit that they are allowing to happen when idling away on the bench. Research has shown that basically no break-in effect takes place AT ALL unless the engine is allowed to come up to operating temp for at least 2 minutes. So if you are idling away and then let it cool there is zero break-in/heat cycle benefit. But if you want to wear away the sleeve and piston fit then idling will definitely do it for you.
So to paraphrase a proper break-in is:
run the engine for at least five 2-3 minutes runs bring the engine to WOT during those runs. Let it cool down between each run and make sure you move the piston to BDC by turning the flywheel manually.
If you use that method you will quickly, properly and efficiently break-in a new nitro ABC, ABN, AAC (non-ringed) engine.
I hope this is helpful!!
P.S. If you want to hear it from him, read Dave Gierke’s article in the January 2002 issue of “RC Nitro” magazine!
END
06-06-2007, 02:50 PM
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RE: OS 30 TEMP - HELL
I have run the engine @ WOT a bunch of times maybe 3-5 second bursts-
not @ first however after like 6 tanks I did achieve WOT and since than durring break in have WOT just having trouble getting to 200 degrees- only like 180 higest-
my compression feels good so Im not really freaking out any more-
My O.S. 30 has some new bi- matalic piston- its susposted to be very strong-
who knows- thanks for the info-
anyway to check for piston damage or compression loss-
thanks again
not @ first however after like 6 tanks I did achieve WOT and since than durring break in have WOT just having trouble getting to 200 degrees- only like 180 higest-
my compression feels good so Im not really freaking out any more-
My O.S. 30 has some new bi- matalic piston- its susposted to be very strong-
who knows- thanks for the info-
anyway to check for piston damage or compression loss-
thanks again
06-06-2007, 06:39 PM
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RE: OS 30 TEMP - HELL
you need to go to WOT on the first run for more than 3 seconds and the following break-in runs after that. if you're not getting the temp up on the first runs is because you are only running at half or less than full throttle. these engines wont generate as much heat at partial throttle settinds at all.
do a few WOT runs and see what happens. usually the factory HSN setting is a good conservative one but it may still be burbling at WOT at that setting which may mean it needs a very small leaning out 1/8 turn at a time. you are wasting your time if you are waiting for 6 partial throttle tanks before going WOT
do a few WOT runs and see what happens. usually the factory HSN setting is a good conservative one but it may still be burbling at WOT at that setting which may mean it needs a very small leaning out 1/8 turn at a time. you are wasting your time if you are waiting for 6 partial throttle tanks before going WOT
06-17-2007, 02:56 PM
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RE: OS 30 TEMP - HELL
UPDATE-
today I decided to run my savage and see if I cant get the moter up to temps-
It was hot outside like 90 degrees-
I tweaked the HSN and LSN - its running much better- temps of 205 full tank- 220 almost empty tank-
its still a bit rich in the low end it think because its still a dog off the line-
I was able to do a few wheelies only after half tank of fuel got burned-
at this point the engine has like 3/4 of a gallon threw it- todays temps of like 205 to 220 are the higest I have ever gotten-
before today the higest temps I ever got was like 140 - 180
partly because the engine was so rich From the factory and I was a fraid to lean it out so very much
so everything is going well- I just hope that running all those tanks at low temps like 140- 180 did not destroy my engine- it still starts fine and seems to have compression-
so why is everyone on this fourm always trashing the OS 30??
people say it will only last 2 gallons or it is just crap- I bash not race and I dont want the hassle of tunning a crazy racing engine like a STS-
I would like to hear from owners of the OS 30 who are happy-
Happy fathers day everyone-
today I decided to run my savage and see if I cant get the moter up to temps-
It was hot outside like 90 degrees-
I tweaked the HSN and LSN - its running much better- temps of 205 full tank- 220 almost empty tank-
its still a bit rich in the low end it think because its still a dog off the line-
I was able to do a few wheelies only after half tank of fuel got burned-
at this point the engine has like 3/4 of a gallon threw it- todays temps of like 205 to 220 are the higest I have ever gotten-
before today the higest temps I ever got was like 140 - 180
partly because the engine was so rich From the factory and I was a fraid to lean it out so very much
so everything is going well- I just hope that running all those tanks at low temps like 140- 180 did not destroy my engine- it still starts fine and seems to have compression-
so why is everyone on this fourm always trashing the OS 30??
people say it will only last 2 gallons or it is just crap- I bash not race and I dont want the hassle of tunning a crazy racing engine like a STS-
I would like to hear from owners of the OS 30 who are happy-
Happy fathers day everyone-
06-18-2007, 12:20 AM
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RE: OS 30 TEMP - HELL
ORIGINAL: 46u
If it is better then ABC why don’t they run it in all there engines not just their low-end engines?
If it is better then ABC why don’t they run it in all there engines not just their low-end engines?
