Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

Stickbuilder...

Man...if that WACO was an ARF you'd have it done by now. And...the manual would tell you size of servos so you wouldn't be endangering all you fly with.

You have made yourself very clear on this subject. You think little of ARF "builders" and the world of "kit assemblers". I certainly don't need your help with my building. I'll ask people that know how to 3D and have safe airplanes. There is plenty of help out there. Much of it is from really nice people who accept both kinds as friends.

I just don't know why this has to be a topic of discussion at all.

Nice try though...

Thanks
Barry

aviti

My Feedback: (54)

Bill, the sad part is I love building kits so I should agree with your posts right? Wrong. Kit building, scratch building etc is not for everyone. I wish their were more kits available to tell you the truth. But I don't think I'm better at enjoying the hobby because I like to build. Given the choice to build or fly, I'll take fly. Sounds like you'd opt for build. Those are our choices. Now let the guy who puts together an ARF use the word "build" even if you really don't want him in youe elite club.

Stickbuilder

You are exactly right. It would have been done by now, and probably would have come apart in the air. You obviously do not have a clue as to what you are talking about. How am I endangering those with whom I come into contact?

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

Stickbuilder...

Whose to say your building is better than an ARF? That's what I'm suggesting. You say it is...I'm not so sure. What insurance would I have that your plane is better than the average ARF? And if yours is better...what about the next guy that builds. I'm sure you "THINK" yours is better but are you sure? Maybe yours aren't so good.

My experience with ARFs has been very good. I've yet to have the firewall come out. I did have one come loose one time but it stayed in the plane and couldn't come out because of the design. I just used a little glue and everything is fine. It doesn't sound like you really stress your planes. If you sold it to a hot dog 3D pilot are you ABSOLUTELY SURE it would hold up better than an ARF. ABSOLUTELY SURE. I'm not so sure it would.

The ARFs are computer designed and put together with quality control from a jig. One after the other they are very similar. And my experience is they hold up very good.

But my believe is you don't really want to know how good ARFs are. What you are really interested in is telling everyone how good of a builder you are and how everyone else should do it to. Doesn't make any sense to me. I love to fly RC planes. That's what I want to do. I enjoy sending a fair amount of time building an ARF. I get better at it everytime I do one. I'm pretty sure I'll do a kit someday. I have very good friends that build kits. Someday I'll probalby do one. But I don't want someone looking down at me when I go to the field with an ARF. Not good for the hobby. In fact I dare say that the ARF is one of the biggest contributors to the added interest in this hobby.

I simply just don't get why you would be so down on the people who fly ARFs. Most I've met have been very friendly and are more than anxious to help. In fact, frankly, the only people I've found unfriendly are some "build people".

Another thing...I think the ARFs are gaining in quality almost by the minute. I've only been in the hobby 2 1/2 years or so. I've seen a tremendous increase in the quality of the ARFs. You owe it to yourself to look at a Great Planes CAP, YAK, or Ultimate. Also the AirWild planes, also the Extreme Flight planes. Do you really think you could do a better job of building than the QQ YAK? How about the new planes for BME? Not to mention the new planes from Hanger 9. These are all excellent ARFs. Excellent quality and getting better every time we see a new one.

Now all that being said...if you want to build, go ahead and build your heart out. More power to you. Just don't look down on me or others who bring an ARF to the field. I won't look down on you for bringing your "homemade" plane to the field. I might ask for it to be inspected, but that's the extent of it.

ARF people are not bad people. By and large they are a good gruop and I feel they generate far more income for the hobby to keep it healthy than the people who build. In fact... if you want to look at it this way...you are a benefactor of ARF flyers. The dollars they put into the hobby make it even better for you. Your kits are better because of the lessons learned by the manufacturers from building ARFs.

You probably will grow to thank us over time. In fact I'd take that thank you right now if your willing.

I don't remember ever seeing someone in the forums I visit say a bad thing about a kit builder. But I've seen your name come up a number of times condeming the ARF flyer to a hobby wantabe. It just gets a little bit old. Can't we just enjoy the hobby without drawing lines we all have to stay inside?

Think about it. I think you may actually agree.

thanks
Barry

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Stickbuilder,

You enjoy building. Awesome. So do I. I suspect, if we sat down over a cup of coffee, we'd find a great many benefits to building that we both appreciate, and that make the effort and time involved more than worth it. I don't know about you, but I truly enjoy having a unique aircraft unlike anyone else's. And, frankly, I'll admit to a certain amount of pride in seeing, say, my Bulldog fly by, and thinking "Wow...I built that. It's mine."

And ya know what? I'll even buy your original assertion. I assembled my ARFs, I built my scratch-builds, I created my own-design-scratch-builds, and the kits...eh...they're somewhere in between.

I think, however, the question on everyone's mind is...SO WHAT??

Please, Stickbuilder...and I'm truly not trying to attack or "jump on" you here...please...tell me why, in your opinion, it MATTERS whether or not any particular plane was built, assembled, or taken out of a box?

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

Well guys I probably should have worded my original post a bit better and i was not impliying anything derogatory.

If I offended some, that was not meant to be, although I do not consider an Arf building in the true sense...I do have both.

I still believe that it is good sense for everyone to build (as in kit)at least one plane and gain the insight into incidence, epoxy qualities and wood/covering/linkages etc which will enable the owner of a good looking Arf to bash it a bit and add the missing ingredients.
Doesnt matter if it is a Trainer or something better.

Most of you in this post seem to have done both and Im in the same boat as far as time/skill V flying and your right the Arfs are getting better but they are still lacking in the glue area and that goes for a whole lot of them, and I have had H9, Wild Hare, Aeroworks and a few others in my garage, lite ply for a landing gear plate is a joke as I saw when repaired an arf for someone recently.

Stickbuilder

We have probably already had a cup of coffee together, or at least looked over the counter at each other in Danielle's old shop in East Nashville. Lots of my planes have hung there before I quit selling them. Larry, Dana and George and I were big buds for years, when I lived in Franklin and Hendersonville.

It doesn't bother me that the pro-ARF guys are trying to gang up on me. Let them bring on 5 or 65 more and the odds will be about even. I'm having fun with this, and sometimes it's fun to stir the pot to see what boils up. I've been at this hobby for over 50 years now, and have seen many fads come and go. I'll keep on building and flying what I build, because I can, and let the guys who are into the instant gratification thing burn out, and move on to the next craze.

I build and fly scale models. In the scale arena, you must sign the builder of the model declaration (except in the lower classes) sheet. Evidently it matters to quite a few people, because the rule was meant (originally) to keep someone from buying a built plane, and competing with it. Now the rule applies to ARF's as well, and that infuriates a lot of folks. Sorry, guys, I don't make the rules, I just abide by them.

As I said previously, I did start and have kept the Help Desk thread in the ARF forum to assist new guys with the trouble that they have, but it appears that even that is not appreciated by some. Go figure. I never have said that I was better than those who fly ARF's, just that I think that my planes are built better. I can see what goes into mine, and they can't see how theirs is constructed, or with what adhesives. I have seen enough of them after they have been tossed into the trash bin to recognize poor glue joints, and less than good grades of wood. I've seen enough landing gear blocks that had marginal glue penetration into the surrounding structure. I have seen the flimsy firewalls, and the overpowered planes. If that warrants the rant that I see here, then bring it on.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

mrbigg

My Feedback: (21)

No matter what ANYBODY says, ARF's will always be looked upon as "Just another ARF." A throw away plane, if you would. One that could be crashed and then re-purchased from the field, the same day with a quick call from a cell phone. You'll even have it ready for next weekend's flying. But when your at a fly-in and your fancy ARF is parked next to a really nice scratchbuilt or kit plane, what plane gets the most attention?
I even picked me up a throw away myself recently- a Wildhare Extra 300. Nice plane. Looking at the construction techniques and drooling over all the interlocking parts, including the sheeting, I was wishing this plane was available in kit form. Why? So I could put it together myself and have that one thing that an ARF can never, ever give me. The pride of watching that box of sticks, that I turned into a plane, fly for the first time. That feeling can never be replicated by "Assembling" an ARF.

rcplanenut

My Feedback: (12)

WOW!! This has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've ever heard. There are well built Arf's, kits and scratch built. There are poorly built ARF's , kits and scratch. Just depends on who's doing it. So, Who really cares. Get OVER IT!!![:-][X(]

sl1200mk2

I don't know what you all do for internet browsers, but me, I code my own straight in C++. Internet Explorer? Firefox? Bah. Your words are USELESS when you type into those pre-made things. Who knows what bugs are in them? Having done flow charts, coding and unit testing myself only *I* know the real joy of using the internet.

Go ahead, laugh and type away on your prepackaged Microsoft dribble -- I'll toil endlessly on my superior wares that you'll never experience.

Obviously, having created the software, my posts are better than yours.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Would it bother anyone else to know that I AM, in fact, doing precisely that as we speak?

(Well, ok, I admit...I used some existing showdoc-esque libraries...I guess that makes this a kit browser, and not a true scratch build)

jongurley

My Feedback: (29)

MR Bigg, I am going to have to argue the quote you made about the attention getters at a flyin,,,, Are you saying if a spectator walks up and your nice scratch built and covered plane is setting beside a clean Matt Chapman cap, do you really think your biplane would get more attention,, news flash,, it isn't the public only sees outside,, they could care less if you have lithium batteries, or you modified the firewall to accomodate a DA100,, etc,etc,,etc,,,,, and as for the quote you made about the box of sticks and building and watching it fly,,, that is another big reason why I stick with ARFs,, I don't dought that that feeling of watching that first flight of a scratch built plane is awesome,,,, but I realize that anything can happen,, that box of sticks could turn into a bag of trash in 4 seconds,,, I stick with arfs because of that also, I am not worried about me dumb thumbing but a receiver failure, or battery failure,etc,etc,, it would be devastating for me to put 3 months of work into a beautiful kit plane and it crash the first couple of flights for one reason or another,,

JEFFRO503

My Feedback: (9)

I could have not said that better myself Maudib , but IT'S EXACTLY the way i feel too. I have not flown for very long (about 6 months now) and i have learned alot from the actuall "FLYING" part of the hobby. It helps living only 10 minutes from the feild. We have about 70-80 member's in our club (mostly old timer's that ridicule ARF's) ...............


WHICH MAKES ME LAUGH!! some of there crappy , slapped together peices of crap that they call an airplane , does not come close to one of my arf's. AND YES.....i am learning how to build and one day i'll be good enough to fly something that i have built. But in the mean time , i have those other 70-80 member's at our feild coming up to me and asking how i have learned so fast at the flying thing??...............


WELL........I FLY!! I don't sit around at the feild all day , weekend after weekend BS'n about my masterpeice i built but am to scared to fly it , and when they do fly (once a friggin' month) they take it up so high , you can't see them do anything but fly a strait line , and listen to their knee's chatter from sheer and utter FEAR!


I'll tell you what , and i'm not blowing my own horn here. But in 6 months , i have gone from a trainer (world models sky raider) , to a funtana 40 , to a hanger 9 showtime , funtana 100X , and now a 33% AM YAK.........with a 35% on the way! I have only wrecked one of these airplanes ( the showtime) , and that was due to a faulty elevator servo. I am harrier rolling it five feet off the deck , am getting better with my hover's , knife edges and every 3-D move i can think of , because i practice at FLYING!! I would love to be able to "Build an Airplane" , but i happen to work , 12-15 hours a day ( i'm a contractor) , so i hardly have time to build an ARF , let alone a kit.


Now......these guys i fly with ( and i love them all....great guys) can some times get on my nerves. They compliment me that i and my room mate are the two best pilot's in the club now and they can't understand how i learned so fast? I haven't leaned that fast........i don't think? Because if you add the flight hours i have had over the last 6 months , it'll probably come close to the same amount of hours that they have flown over the past three years.

I am also not scared to hang it out a bit. I know i'm going to wreck a few , but that's ok...........i'll just buy another one and fly the crap out of that one!


And this is to all the builder's who read this thread.........." i wish i had the time and patience you guys do when building. Some of the planes i see on this site , that are scratch built , or full kits like "Areoworks" , are simply awesome looking airplanes. My probalem is that my work life (as of right now) does not permit me to build an airplane. besides it takes years to be able to master your type of craftsmanship. in my "Off work time".......i want to fly!!


one other thing........i don't appreciate is this. the builder's who put themselves on a pedastal for building a great airplane , but then can't fly worth a crap. how would you like it , if i came up to you and said "I'm a far superior pilot..........looky what i can do".

I beleive there is two sides of the fence in this argument. unless your a great builder and pilot.........then i completely bow to you. Still.....you better be able to build something better than my AM YAK , or a comp-arf , a Krill katana , or half dozen other outfits that put out GREAT looking and flying arfs like Wildhare , areoworks , some of the hanger 9 stuff , and a few other's...........


I choose to fly........... my $.02


jeff

Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

To all that have crashed an ARF because of mechanical failure...

I'm sure the "builders" don't have problems with receivers and servos and engines, and transmitters, and batteries, and switches, and etc because if they were "builders" they would make their own parts. I'm sure they do that...Don't they? But wait, if they buy those parts would their plane be an ARF?

Really, I think this rediculous thread has gone on quite far enough. I would just hope the "builders" would respect the ARF guys.

I agree with some that have said that generally the ARF guys are better pilots. They tend to learn quicker and better how to fly. Maybe their is some jeasoulsy there because they don't think the ARF guys have paid their dues?

Anyways, enough already.

Thanks
Barry

Stickbuilder

Barry,

Did you check on what I asked you to? You know the Help Desk thing? I basically agree with what you said about the majority of ARF pilots being better flyers than the mainstream builder. Just as we build better than the Average ARFer. It is a function of time invested into that aspect of the hobby. I'll make you a deal. I'll try yours if you will try mine. You build (kit or plans or scratch) a model, and I'll buy an ARF. Let's seee how the other half lives. Fair? I'll help you with yours, and you help me with mine. Oh, one other thing, you should buy a PICA kit. You can find them on e-bay. I reccomend the WACO YMF (the fifth scale one), or the Spitfire if you like warbirds. If you can't find one of them, then an IKON N'WEST kit would be the second choice. The Stinson would be a nice one.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

mrbigg

My Feedback: (21)

Actually at the flyin we had this summer, my Ultimate did get more attention than a 1/3 scale Matt Chapman ARF. Even the spectators were commenting on my plane. Everyone else, including the top notch, giant scale scratch builders were asking my construction techniques and materials used. Now THAT was a great feeling! I've been admiring their work for several years and to have them really like my plane and ask me about it was great. I do agree with you about losing all the time you spent working on a plane in a crash. That's why I'm glad there are throw away ARF's around. This hobby needs ARF's for sure. I need them. I need to build also. See, we're all Happy!!!

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

There are many of us who HAVE done both... and don't feel the NEED to separate ourselves from one or another. A craftsman can always take pride in their work... but they have NO right to "dis" others for their efforts.

To be honest.. I know what causes this... the ARFs of today simply blow away what most "stickbuilders" can accomplish... from quality, pefromance, structural integrity, finish, cost and time.... they see these planes at the field getting MORE attention than their stickbuilt project and it burns them up... because they are in the hobby for pat on the backs and kudos for their work.

I've built a LOT oof planes... quite a few stick stuff, and lots and lots of ARFs... for some one to bash the "quality" of ARFS simply shows their inexperience with "modern day" ARFs and ignorance to the facts.

Here... maybe I can get some Kudos for MY stickbuilds... nah... nevermind I don't NEED someones approval or disapproval... see... I don't build my planes (ARFs or otherwise) for anyone BUT ME.

1: A plans built Miles Reed Challenger3 in Bulldog scheme
2: Aeroworks 33% Edge 540T built from stick and foam kit in custom designed and all monokote scheme
3: SIG SMith Mini

Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

Stickbuilder...

Sorry but I'm not yet ready to build a kit. I actually have 3 planes I'm trying to get flying right now. It takes me a LOT longer than the average person to do an ARF. But I will take you up on your offer. I will build a kit someday. I've wanted to do that and I will. It's probably the next step for me. But right now I'm not ready to dedicate the time.

It'll be nice though to "work together" to further all aspects of our shared hobby. I'm all for that.

Have a great day my friend.

Thanks
Barry

Barry Cazier

My Feedback: (17)

Maudib...

Those are great looking planes. You obviously have a great hanger. My Ultimate will be here today sometime (evening). I'm anxious to get started on it.

Thanks
Barry

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

Nah... m hangar is a revolving door... the Bulldog was a probuild..won't do that again.. .

The Edge was my first GS...a nd a ball on ZDZ80 and canister.

And the Smith mini... my first "real" kit build. Fun.

I had the plans blown up for a 42% version... something like 70" Wingspan great for a 50cc engine... will modify it somewhat for an engine box, etc... move to fully symmetrical airfoils, etc...


I enjoy "building" whether it's with stick or ARF's... this thread just seemed so condescending to those that didn't CHOOSE to build sticks. And that just isn't right. What I find is that MOST people at the field will recognize when someone has kit built something and give them the "extra credit" due for the extra work.

And yet there is always the few that like to go around and say "Oh... that's an ARF" as if it "doesn't count". Doesn't count for what?

Tee hee... too funny...

Well anyway... I'll leave these elitists to their wiles... Their hole is dug pretty deep by now. I'm unsubing as I've got better things to do... like learn and share information about our hobby.

jongurley

My Feedback: (29)

JEFFRO503

My Feedback: (9)

Man..........that's a sweet looking bird Maudib !! Love the color scheme for sure.


And as far as this debate goes , i just wanna say that i appreciate the guys who "CAN" build these planes to this degree. I noticed that alot of the builder's (correct me if i'm wrong) seem to have way more free time on their hands. I noticed the age of alot of these really good builders , and they seem to be a little older than myself.......which explains the craftsmanship. You guys "HAD" to learn to build your planes , because not to long ago the ARF's either didn't exist , or they we're built extremely crappy.


I love to fly my planes........it's the only hobby i have been able to get into that takes my mind of of racing motorcycles (which i still ride , practice and train ) for motocross. But over the last few years , it has taken a toll on my body and i needed something else to get my adrenaline going. I picked up on these planes to try something different.......and now i'm HOOKED!


I don't know much about Incedence , strait and plum , trailing edge's , or how to even repair completely correctly yet.........but i am learning. Lucky for me , i have some of these "Builder's" as flying buddies to get some advice from. And on the other hand , i think they get a kick out of watching me fly ,......which makes me feel good.



ONE DAY......i will know enough to try and build a kit. i really want to lean how to do that , but again , my life style just doesn't give me very much free time. But every chance i get , i will try and fly. I have also been looking into a lot of information on how to build. But "reading' it all online , or in a book only gets me so far , i really enjoy the "On hands" type help........i can learn it so much quickly.


I hope my rant above didn't make it sound like i didn't appreciate the "Builder's" of this hobby......because i do. But if i want to fly , the ARF is my only choice right now.



Jeff

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Ya know...I had this big philisophical monologue all typed up...and then realized it as absolutely pointless. And besides...it as so long, it stopped making sense even to me.

Usually, in situations like that, I post something about a bunny with a pancake on its head. But, in this case, since this thread has, at least to some degree, turned into a "gratuitous showoff thread" here's my most recent scratch-from-plans, completed this summer:





Nahh...it's absolutely not any better than any random ARF at the field...and I am absolutely not a better hobbyist or modeler for having built it.

But i DO hope y'all will forgive me if, when I retire it next year after Jim LeRoy signs it, I occaisionally stan in my shop, glance at it, and think "G** D*** that's ****ing cool."

And there, my fellow hobbyists, is what I think the real issue is.

JEFFRO503

My Feedback: (9)

Your right......that IS one gorgeous looking airplane!! SEE............one day i wanna be able to build something like that , but instead i am left with my crappy , non-good looking arf Aviation models 33% yak.......HAHA!! that was a joke BTW , i love my yak.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Thanks! As I said...I'll admit to an unhealthy does of pride where that one's concerned.

And, seriously...I don't think anyone's "left with..." anything. We fly what we like (I hope!!), and what we have the time and budget for. I HAPPEN to be lucky enough to have more opportunities to spend time in the shop than many....i DON'T happen to be lucky enough to own a 33% though. (YET! The scratch on the table right now is a 1/3rd scale of the Bulldog. )

I will say this...I DO think there are lots of people who would enjoy building a kit or scratch build more than they realize. I REALLY didn't expect to like it...i never have enjoyed tedious work of that nature...but I found myself having a blast the first time I tried it. As I say...doesn't make me any better/worse than others...just lucky to have the opportunity to learn how much I enjoy it.