YHR

I have added IR battle sytems to my tanks, all the parts were scrounged from old Lazer Challenge systems. As I was searching the net I stumbled on to this site

[link=http://www.lasertagparts.com/mt5xx.htm]DIY Laser Tag Systems[/link]

This is a very exciting product and I have been talking to the developer about catering to the tank crowd.

For $80 you get an IR sound board that blows away the competition. THe ability to copy WAV. files to the sound module means that you can add any wav. file you can get your hands on. Wav files from computer games or websites can be programmed to be played at specifc event sequences. Programmable game play, as well has ammo strength and armor strength is all within the grasp of this card. This will absolutely blow away the Tamiya system with a range of features that are amazing. Have a read on this electronic card and what it is being used for in the Lazer tag field, and then use your imagination to transfer those abilities to RC tanks. I think ,like me, you will be very interested in what this could be used for.

If enough interest is shown, a version could be built that caters to the RC tank crowd. I.e preprogrammed tank sounds, and other tank game features specifically to meet our needs. There needs to be an interface with the drive motors, but I believe this would be fairly simple to do. I suggested a relay switch option that would cut power to the tank motors once the damage points accumulated to be fatal. If this relay was a DPDT, the power from ESC to the motors could be rerouted to a fuse that would ignite a Estes rocket/smoke pot device. A hatch would be blown by a short rocket blast straight up in the air, then the secondary burn ,usually used to pop open a parachute, could then be used to ignite wadding soaked in smoke oil. A fatal hit would then trigger this contraption that would give you an awesome effect. Just picture it. A hatch being blown open by a jet blast followed with billowing smoke. I want one.

I encourage you to follow the link and read what this little board can do, then let your imagination run wild. It is also a good IR parts source. As the board currently stands you would have to invest in a PIC programmer to make the neccesary changes, but if enough interest was generated I image tank sounds could replace the hand held arms fire that currently is being programmed into it.

ArmChairGeneral

I always thought the Tam system was a little limited considering the abilities we could have if someone done it right, much like your suggestions YHR. I have been actively looking for a good IR combat system, thanks YHR for this find. Did you check out this system? http://www.rcmodels.org/csm/Airwars.htm
I like the post combat abilities to do reporting, this system looks very promising. If you have ever checked into what the RC Warship combat guys are doing you'll find they are very organized and have a national event, perhaps one day the tankers will be able to do the same.

YHR

That is very intersting as well. Again a total system for a fraction of the price Tamiya charges.

I am getting one of the new integrated Sound IR board once they are availalble. I am also going to build my hatch blowing smoke emitting module this weekend.!!!!

ksoc

The coded signal of the "AirWars" system would be nice. You could track down the source of the friendly fire and have a "chat" with them after the battle.

We have some club members trying out the www.tankhobby.com battle circuit. Another built a Tamiya compatable system that used the Tamiya TBU apple. The trouble we have is we have 25+ club members, most who own two or more Tamiya tanks. Any new battle system would need to be backward comptable with the Tamiya system. Additionally, once you start allowing for a lot of customization, you open the door to people bending, or outright breaking the rules. It is amazing what a few people will do to win.

That being said, anything that can get more people on the battlefield can't be all bad.

Kevin O
<S.C.A.T.>

YHR

I look at what you get for the price of $79.00. A IR system much more capable then the Tamiya/CW sound system that can handle user defined wav. files.

Ammo that has programmable hit value, programmable armour, and programmable firing frequency. Basically for $200 invested into a Henglong and this DIY IR module you would have a tank system that Tamiya couldn't duplicate. Many computer games have tank wav. files that could be harvested and recorded onto the system. Shell firing, explosive hits, everything programmable all at a price that the majority of hobbyist could afford.

Guys who have already invested over a $1000, in a Tamiya system probably wouldn't bat an eye at spending $79 for this module. You could still use the Tamiya sensor, which by the way is incredibly expensive for something that houses a 59 cent IR receiver. I imagine with the user defined carrier frequency and using the Tamiya sensor array, you would have a compatible system.

Also the "God" feature allows you to mass program and check on cheats. Seems like cheating is a concern in Laser tag as well. The software allows you to download all the settings for each unit to ensure the rules are being followed.

Doesn't hurt that it is made in America as well for all those people who complain of offshore manufacturing.

A full function battle tank and system like this for $200 is pretty attractive. What does it cost to outfit a Tamiya to have it RC battle ready?. I guessed a $1000, but don't know for sure.

lanierrl

YHR,

I just shot him an email to voice my interest. I think Tamiya's days are numbered!!

YHR

That is probably a good idea. He is fully focused on Laser tag, but seemed interested in my needs as an RC tanker. I think if enough people voiced an interest he would devote his limited time to catering to our needs. I am buying his sytem and plan on experimenting with it. However if DIY sold units that had all the Tank stuff preprogrammed, I think the interest level from tankers would really heat up. Right now it is very much a buy and experiment project. Preprogrammed (Tiger, Pershing,etc) sounds and armour levels would turn it into buy and play item in a real hurry. Knowing that the system is fully programmable is just icing on the cake to know customizing is available if you want it to be.

My original idea was to do just that, as Jim seems busy, but I don't have the time to market and distrubute this either. I am sure if Jim received enough interest he would see it would be worth his time to market his electronics to the RC tank world. The great thing is the technology and boards are ready and they work. They just need to be reconfigured to be a great RC tank system.

Wozwasnt

So my top secret (British) upgraded M18 Hellcat won't get in?

It has armour like a King Tiger, the gun from a Firefly but amazingly after a bit of engine "tweaking" it still has a top speed of 55mph

ksoc

Hey, just jump on a plane and bring it over, we'll let ya play! I was talking more about people who tweak the electronics to their own benefit. Check out our site for an M-10/Sherman conversion, and a scratch built AEC Mk III. The Mk III should be fast, but not as well armored as your Cat.

YHR - $79 would be a great price for a Tamiya replacement, but from what I saw, that was just for the board. You still need and enclosure (cheap), IR Rx & TX (cheap), and a way to interface with the rest of the tank - motors, turret rotation, gun firing ($$$ ???). One of the thing the Tamiya system does is as the tank takes damage, the top speed is reduced, and the sound the tank makes becomes more labored. I personally would love to see more features. Tamiya currently has 3 settings, Light (3 sec reload, 3 hits), Medium (6 sec/6 hits), and Heavy (9 sec/9 hits). Tigers and King Tigers battle at the same settings. If you 'upgun' you Sherman (Medium) to a Firefly, they is no way to allow for the increase in firepower, without giving it the same armor rating as a Tiger (Heavy). Seperate gun and armor settings would be cool. Random failures (Main Gun, Turret Rotation, One or Both Tracks) would also be great. You are correct that a lot of Tamiya owners would pay the extra for better battle system. I don't know how many would want to hack together various electronic bits in the hopes of getting one that works. I'd love to see a better system available, I'm just not holding my breath waiting for one.

As for Total Cost of Ownership, you need to upgrade you 2000 mAh to a 3000 mAh NMH so it can run all day, or get some spare batteries. How many frequ's can the HL radios handle? I thought it was 3 or 4. We we sometimes have more than 12 tanks running. If you have to add a radio, that would be $100 - $200 (2.4 ghz eliminates frequ conflicts)

We have club members who have HL's and a few are making them battle ready. As long as it hits and dies like a Tamiya, it is welcome to come out and play.

All Tanked Up

A member of my club A.C.E. has developed a plug-n-play unit that replaces the stove pipe apple that is used with the Tamiya system. At this time, it is only for use within ACE and our tank club group Rolling Thunder. We will be debuting it at one of our events in June. But in the future, we will have enough units for the attending tankers to plug it in and battle with it. No modifications required. But it will only be for use at our open public events. We have no plans to market it at this time. To view the press release of it, go to: www.tankace.org and click on the News link and you will find it. It is in pdf format.

YHR

KSOC

The board that is being introduced in July is a complete IR system and sound system You really don't need an enclosure, the tank is an enclosure. The interface with the tank electronics is needed. I suggested this could be done with an electronic relay with a DPDT.

Heng long Electronics are 27 Mhz FM. I am not sure how many frequencies are available. I have five crystal sets, but I am unsure how many are available in total.

Regardless, this system is interesting, and being able to talk to the developer, who is interested, means things that tankers needs could be incorporated as the technology is transferred over to RC tanks.

heavyaslead

Both the DIY and Airwars system are programmable which is a BIG improvement over Tamiya. I say pursue either of these systems as an alternative.

And the best thing, these are independent systems that DO NOT require the Tam electronics to work, so HL, 21st Cent etc can compete without breaking the bank!

ArmChairGeneral

The systems are so close to what we need, as mentioned a few relays and it would be everything we need, the relays would make the IR battle system independant of the electronics inside, you just connect a wire from each control system ( each drive motor, turret rotate motor, smoke generator when vehice is destroyed ). You just need to control the initial state of the relay - closed for the control systems and open for the smoke generator.

bullyhys

Hey Kevin,

The Tankhobby setup that I currently use in Ferdinand and the sdkfz251/22 along with my modified HL Tiger, has programible firing time and hits.

Hits are 2, 3, 5, and 9

Firing times are the same.


bullyhys

ksoc

YHR -

Checked Tower Hobbies, and it looks as if you have 6 choices in 27mHz.

The enclosure could be cheap, and is ment to protect the electronics from grounding out on Tamiyas alum chassis. Also those interiors can get dusty. The board might be complete, but you still would need a remote IR Tx and IR Rx mounted outside the tank to send and receive hits. The LED diodes are cheap, not sure how much a decent "apple' would cost. Tamiyas includes the IR Rx and (4) red LED's to indicate hits.

The specs were are tossing around sound awsome. If the board could be tailored for RC tanks, an interface for HL's and another for Tamiyas shouldn't be that difficult to include.


ACG-

Could you make the speed drop with each hit using relays? Crawling around at 1/4 speed makes for some interesting battles, and draws a whole lot of attention! A lot of times you end up in a hole, acting like and armored pillbox.

Kevin O
<S.C.A.T.>

YHR

ON the website he sells IR transmitters and has a DIY sensor array. The Tamiya "apple" is just an IR receiver housed in a Plastic enclosure. It has a mirror to reflec more IR light to the sensor, but seriously the components to make a similar apple would cost about $6.00.

There is no reason that the Tamiya apple could not interface with DIY Miles Board. As much as I think they gouge the hell out of you, the "apple" is a standard that could be adopted as "THE SENSOR" to use.

A small pill bottle from the local drug store inverted would make a good enclosure for someone who wants to make their own. The trickest thing is finding a source for the pyramid mirror. The IR receivers are only about $1.59, so a person could have three wired up in parallel, angled at 120 degrees to give you complete 360 degree sensing. You would then just have to emulate the fins to de-sensitize the sensors and make them less likely to record reflected IR as a hit. A little trail and error and I believe you could have a sensor that would mimic what Tamiya sells

bullyhys

You are correct, The TBU from Tamiya runs aprox $75 US and up depending on where you get it plus any shipping.[]

Maybe for the sake of some sort of "standardization" someone could find a way to acuire the structural parts of the TBU for custom installations or provide a close enough copy that will allow those of us who do use the availible after market combat circuits as to minimize the complaints. I'm not saying violate copyright laws, but come up with something that will be allowed since mounting the IR dectors in the tank appears to be a real issue. I have already run into this argument even though I did setup my vehicle with no blind spots and it wouls acknowledge hit from at least 20 feet and from all 4 sides.
I have made 2 custom TBUs and to get around the mirror issue the Tankhobby system ($78 complete) uses 4 IR dectors instead of one and a mirror. For a TBU housing I used nylon container that once held pins for aircraft electrical connector, not classy but it works.
Anyway my 2cents

Regards,
bullyhys

YHR

On the Miles DIY site they show a halo design that combatants wear around their head in Laser tag. I am not sure why the Halo couldn't be downsized to fit around a turret. They sell all the components, and the design is offered, as is all their stuff open for others to use and experiment with.

I think if this caught on the objections from the Tamiya users would disappear. When masses of Heng Long tanks start showing up with Miles DIY IR and sound systems there will be choices to make. Most Tamiya clubs seem anxious to grow the hobby, and if this new system is different, but better and less expensive, I see the objections stopping. IF they don't then it is the Tamiya users themselves that stand to be on the outside looking in.

What the Miles DIY design, ability and price will do for RC tanks is what Ford did with the automobile.

Now all I have to do is get my hands on one and talk the developers into tapping the RC tank market. To be real the biggest challenge is building an interface with the drive motors. Ideally if the guys at Miles DIY could talk to the EI-Mod developer then we would have some real exciting options. The EI mod system bullet proofs the Heng Long electronics, and adds momentum while it is add it. Interface this with Miles, and WOW have we got an aftermarket system!!! I'll email both these guys and see if I can get them talking. EI mod already has their own sound system, so Miles DIY may be looked at more as competiton. I hope not, as I believe the EI system is primarly a drive system.

The good thing is, none of this is vapourware. It all exists and is functioning. It just needs to be tweaked for RC tanks. I am not sure If I have the ability to be that "tweaker", but I'll give it a go. My whole intent was to showcase the system, develop some RC tank interest, hoping that emails to the developer would get their attention to do the tweaking themselves. If this doesn't work, some other electronics hobbyist maybe can be encouraged enough try their hand at it, and share the results with the rest of us.

I am new to this tank hobby, but I fully understand to grow the popularity we need to come up with something less expensive then the Tamiya option. Heng Long, even with all their faults are doing more for this hobby then anyone else. Tamiya kits are intimidating, and expensive, and this combination does not win a large following. If a reasonably priced battle system can be developed, for the RTR Heng longs I don't need to tell you guys, what that would do for the popularity of this "sport".

ksoc

It can get pretty bright here in Sothern California at noon in the Summer. The trouble with the IR sensor in full sun is why Tamiya went with the slats. We still notice that is is tougher sometimes to hit other tanks at a distance at under the bright mid day sun then it is in the afternoon. The TBU isn't the prettiest thing you can add to you tank, but at least they are standardized. Once you start tying to mount the Rx's on the hull, while more techinically accurate and pretty, you open a can of worms as to fairness. It can be worked out, but would require a lot more work of the builder and the club organziers.

Though the Tamiya tanks are expensive and need to be built, the TBU has provided a easy to use standardized system for battling. The HLs are cheaper and easier to get up and running. A Battle System that could be easily installed AND is TBU compatable would be great for the hobby.

I am looking forward to getting a Panzer III and while I could drop Tamiya electronics in (if they fit!), I would appreciate a simpler and cheaper alternative.

For a great look inside a TBU, check out the DAK website. Ethan breaks one down for a custom paintjob.

http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/iWeb/DAK2/TBU.html

Kevin O
<S.C.A.T.>

uhu

There is much interest in ANY system that could be adapted or even specifically developed for HL tanks .
What amazes me is the need of a full compatibility with the Tamiya TBU.....If we could find or develop a combat system that can be easily implemented in HL tanks, we could ignore any Tamiya TBU compatibility. In a matter of months Tam TBU would become obsolete as standard and the new system establish itself as the new standard, as YHR said there are lots of HL tankers out there......
Do you remember the old days of IBM-IBM clones wars?, clones won the battle due to the lack of "easy upgradability" IBM showed.....
Regards
Jose

ksoc

Jose,

Any battle system does not need to be compatible with Tamiyas. The point I was making is that all the 1/16 armor clubs I know of are based around the TBU. If you want to battle in one of these groups, you are going to have to compatible. If you are in an are that has no established clubs, then it isn't a big deal. Most of our club members (about 25) have 2 or more tanks each. I don't think it really saves them any money to toss that investment aside to by a new battle system. Not all Tamiya tankers are made of money.

In Southern Californina, the hardest thing to come up with is permant location to run the battles. Next, we have sizeable investment in trees, buildings and accessories. If you think that doesn't make a difference, try battling in the open. It soon becomes a slugfest, with the winner being the person getting off the first shot. Last time I checked, this forum was for RC tanks, not just HL tanks. In our club we try to include everyone, Bandai, WSN, HL, and Scratch Builts. The cost of the Tamiya electronics has been a barrier, and if that can be reduced then it could really help open up the hobby to more people.

The key word in your sentence is "CLONES". Dell, Compaq etc knocked off IBM not only because they were cheaper but also COMPATIBLE. There were a lot of other, non IBM compatible systems that didn't make it. Amiga, TSR (Radio Shack), Atari....... Other were non compatible, more expensive, but easier to use, and they are still around - APPLE.

I wonder if some of the people complaining and criticizing the TBU have even fought with one. A few of the HL owners I have run across on RC Univ have come off as " we better and cheaper, so F'off". HL's are different and they are cheaper to purchase. Which is better? Any tank you have fun with is a good tank.

Kevin O
<S.C.A.T.>

uhu

Hallo Kevin
I'm not critizicing Tamiya BUs. I recognize that it is the actual 1:16 tank battle system standard.
That said I just wanted to make the point that we, HL tankers, don't need to be constantly struggling with the TBU compatibility. In my country and area there are no tank battling established clubs, in fact there are no tanks clubs at all....So, it would be easier for us to grow this hobby here, by promoting any system HL fully compatible, than copying the TBU system and behaviour. People capable of designing IR battle systems, not too difficult otherwise, maybe could feel at ease and find quick solutions if not obliged to maintain that auto-imposed compatibility. Is just my opinion, don't want to begin here a discussion about BigT vs. HL
Cheers
Jose

shenlonco

My Feedback: (2)

Don't know why these guys paint the tamiya unit.... it's black for a reason ...black absorbs the bright light and if you paint it it would most likly change the units charicteristics and there for make it work a little differently.....Im not in a club or anything but if i where in one i would say using the units how they come stock should only be allowd with no alterations..
Just my though on this.

YHR

I don't want this to be an us vs them thing. We are all RC tankers. I agree though we shouldn't hand-cuff ourselves trying to be TBU compatible. I think as long as each system records hits we can work something out. It is kind of important, but on a go forward basis a complete IR battle ready tank for less the $250 will dictate the future don't you think?.

ksoc

Haven't you all got the memo... we are in a global economy

Seriously, we are talking from Spain, Canada, and the US about tanks made in China based on a Japanese model of German tank!

Anybody selling these products has to look at the global market. As much as WE love our tanks, we are a tiny fraction of the world toy market. Anyone selling products would want to reach the largest possible audience. Plus, even if we stay in our respective countries, these little tracked monsters have been know to go from country to country trying to find a home - via eBay of course. Some thing that takes the Tamiya specs as a starting point, then adds the wonderful features we have discussed would reach the widest market (IMHO). I think the $200-250 mark would be great price to replace the electronics in a HL, Bandai, WSN, or Tamiya. That way we all would have more targets to shot at.

Now.... when is someone going to make a 1/16 scale Panzer IV, and a workable VSS for the Sherman....

Shenlonco -

I agree, painting the TBU may not be the smartest thing. I thinking adding paint to the slots might help MORE light make it to the sensor. On the other hand, the TBU hanging out the top of your tank is ..... UGLY to say the least. Painting it to match dramatically reduces the visual impact. We are planning to do a little informal testing to see how the TBU's are performing. A little too much battlefield dust could be giving someone an advantage. Or maybe one of those people who moved the IR into the mantel can't hit anything because the IR is 20 deg off of the barrel aim.....


Kevin O
<S.C.A.T.>