Electronic solutions to modifying glow engines of all sizes to gasoline
#2201
Yes you have right, with oil in gasoline the bubbles are significantly smaller (but there is lot of small bubbles).
I use a synthetic oil for 2 stroke from my supermarket (I can't remember the brand).
Yes I have for the moment the open curve from Guillaume. I will try with the solenoid electrically disconnected to set the needle a full throttle and after set the solenoid curve.
I will check the exhaust pressure line tomorrow if I find some leak, and will do the test of disconnect exhaust line from the muffler at full throttle.
Thanks a lot for all your way of investigation!
I hope I will find the root cause in the next days 🤞
I use a synthetic oil for 2 stroke from my supermarket (I can't remember the brand).
Yes I have for the moment the open curve from Guillaume. I will try with the solenoid electrically disconnected to set the needle a full throttle and after set the solenoid curve.
I will check the exhaust pressure line tomorrow if I find some leak, and will do the test of disconnect exhaust line from the muffler at full throttle.
Thanks a lot for all your way of investigation!
I hope I will find the root cause in the next days 🤞
#2202
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Good luck testing, I am pretty sure we;ll find a solution, and this is exactly the reason why we should do this in the open discussion, not via non-public private messaging.
Let the learning continue!
Let the learning continue!
#2203
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Yes you have right, with oil in gasoline the bubbles are significantly smaller (but there is lot of small bubbles).
I use a synthetic oil for 2 stroke from my supermarket (I can't remember the brand).
Yes I have for the moment the open curve from Guillaume. I will try with the solenoid electrically disconnected to set the needle a full throttle and after set the solenoid curve.
I will check the exhaust pressure line tomorrow if I find some leak, and will do the test of disconnect exhaust line from the muffler at full throttle.
Thanks a lot for all your way of investigation!
I hope I will find the root cause in the next days 🤞
I use a synthetic oil for 2 stroke from my supermarket (I can't remember the brand).
Yes I have for the moment the open curve from Guillaume. I will try with the solenoid electrically disconnected to set the needle a full throttle and after set the solenoid curve.
I will check the exhaust pressure line tomorrow if I find some leak, and will do the test of disconnect exhaust line from the muffler at full throttle.
Thanks a lot for all your way of investigation!
I hope I will find the root cause in the next days 🤞
I have converted an OS FP10, and when doing so, I pulled the head and noticed that these small OS engines have a rather thin cylinder head. For the FP 10 this resulted in a sparkplug that protruded way too deep into the combustion chamber.
Please check if this is the case with your .25 engines, and if so, add an extra washer under the plug. The threaded base of the plug should be, as a minimum, flush with the ceiling of the combustion chamber, or even slightly recessed, since the electrodes will be pretty close to the piston top otherwise.
It has nothing to do with the bubbles, but a protruding spark plug will negatively affect the scavenging process of these tiny 2-strokes.
#2204
To be sure, better ask Dave, but AFAIK, this connection is for if you want to see the telemetry data on your screen. To my knowledge the S-port has no role in the functioning of the mixture control as such. That works via a normal servo-output from any RX.............
#2205
Something completely unrelated to your problem, just sprung to mind: You are basically, of all people involved, running the smallest engine yet in this entire saga.
I have converted an OS FP10, and when doing so, I pulled the head and noticed that these small OS engines have a rather thin cylinder head. For the FP 10 this resulted in a sparkplug that protruded way too deep into the combustion chamber.
Please check if this is the case with your .25 engines, and if so, add an extra washer under the plug. The threaded base of the plug should be, as a minimum, flush with the ceiling of the combustion chamber, or even slightly recessed, since the electrodes will be pretty close to the piston top otherwise.
It has nothing to do with the bubbles, but a protruding spark plug will negatively affect the scavenging process of these tiny 2-strokes.
I have converted an OS FP10, and when doing so, I pulled the head and noticed that these small OS engines have a rather thin cylinder head. For the FP 10 this resulted in a sparkplug that protruded way too deep into the combustion chamber.
Please check if this is the case with your .25 engines, and if so, add an extra washer under the plug. The threaded base of the plug should be, as a minimum, flush with the ceiling of the combustion chamber, or even slightly recessed, since the electrodes will be pretty close to the piston top otherwise.
It has nothing to do with the bubbles, but a protruding spark plug will negatively affect the scavenging process of these tiny 2-strokes.
You say you have converted OS FP10, so this engine is smaller than my 25RC or my 25LA ? I don't understand something?
I tried today to set the needle with the valve off at full throttle, and after set the valve on each point of the curve, it's a little better but still bubbles.
So, remove the valve and try to run the engine directly from the tank, and it's not too bad.
So, this afternoon I went to my club to do a flight test, the plane fly not bad en the engine run good, but each time I have engine cut after some minutes and I must do emergency landing (without crash 😅🤞
I saw some bubbles (always that!) come from the needle. I don't know if I have a leak on the needle seal (I already have a piece of hose on the needle to improve the airtightness) or it's due to emulsion.
The research continu 😅
Bert, what coil do you use on your strobe light to check the timing ignition? (Wire diameter? How many loop?
#2207
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I checked the position of the spark plug in the combustion chamber and it's ok the thread of the sparkplug is flush.
You say you have converted OS FP10, so this engine is smaller than my 25RC or my 25LA ? I don't understand something?
I tried today to set the needle with the valve off at full throttle, and after set the valve on each point of the curve, it's a little better but still bubbles.
So, remove the valve and try to run the engine directly from the tank, and it's not too bad.
So, this afternoon I went to my club to do a flight test, the plane fly not bad en the engine run good, but each time I have engine cut after some minutes and I must do emergency landing (without crash 😅🤞
I saw some bubbles (always that!) come from the needle. I don't know if I have a leak on the needle seal (I already have a piece of hose on the needle to improve the airtightness) or it's due to emulsion.
The research continu 😅
Bert, what coil do you use on your strobe light to check the timing ignition? (Wire diameter? How many loop?
You say you have converted OS FP10, so this engine is smaller than my 25RC or my 25LA ? I don't understand something?
I tried today to set the needle with the valve off at full throttle, and after set the valve on each point of the curve, it's a little better but still bubbles.
So, remove the valve and try to run the engine directly from the tank, and it's not too bad.
So, this afternoon I went to my club to do a flight test, the plane fly not bad en the engine run good, but each time I have engine cut after some minutes and I must do emergency landing (without crash 😅🤞
I saw some bubbles (always that!) come from the needle. I don't know if I have a leak on the needle seal (I already have a piece of hose on the needle to improve the airtightness) or it's due to emulsion.
The research continu 😅
Bert, what coil do you use on your strobe light to check the timing ignition? (Wire diameter? How many loop?
I don't know the exact coil size. I do know it is not very critical, I tested three different Henry-values and they all three worked equally well.
It's a tiny thing (I believe they call it a "choke coil") maybe 1 cm long and 5 mm diameter or less.
Yes, indeed, I did run an OS FP10 on gasoline (1,7 cc, so yes, pretty much smaller than yours), but I never ran it with the solenoid because despite having all the electronics and stuff, that project got halted. I still want to finish it.
#2208
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Read post #18
The coil in post #1 of that thread is what I also used for the stroboscope.
#2209
Thanks Bert for your reply.
I did some new test yesterday, first on the 25LA engine. I separated the needle from the back cover of the engine to reduce vibration on the needle, it's a bit better, but always after some minutes of running the engine cut from bubbles come from the carb, may be an heat issue?
I don't know how to insulate the carb without disconnect it from the engine?
The LA series with the needle separate from the carb seem to be not the best design.
After I did some new to test on the 25RC without solenoid and a good sealing on the needle and the carb, the engine work well with no cut, just some RPM variation when the plane is vertical. So I did a fly test, but with the gasoline conversion it seems a little underpowered.
I did also a test with gasoline mix only with castor to check if it could change the bubbles problem but it's worse than the 2 stroke synthetic oil, so I come back with 10% of fully synthetic.
So, this morning I buy a new used engine, an OS 40SF, I saw in your YouTube channel than you have already test one (without solenoid I think) and it seems work well, I hope it will be the same for me.
For my strobe light, I put a little coil and it work but I must be very close to the ignition module output (some millimeters), in your video your are at 1 or 2cm. So I will test with an other coil bigger, may be it could change something.
I did some new test yesterday, first on the 25LA engine. I separated the needle from the back cover of the engine to reduce vibration on the needle, it's a bit better, but always after some minutes of running the engine cut from bubbles come from the carb, may be an heat issue?
I don't know how to insulate the carb without disconnect it from the engine?
The LA series with the needle separate from the carb seem to be not the best design.
After I did some new to test on the 25RC without solenoid and a good sealing on the needle and the carb, the engine work well with no cut, just some RPM variation when the plane is vertical. So I did a fly test, but with the gasoline conversion it seems a little underpowered.
I did also a test with gasoline mix only with castor to check if it could change the bubbles problem but it's worse than the 2 stroke synthetic oil, so I come back with 10% of fully synthetic.
So, this morning I buy a new used engine, an OS 40SF, I saw in your YouTube channel than you have already test one (without solenoid I think) and it seems work well, I hope it will be the same for me.
For my strobe light, I put a little coil and it work but I must be very close to the ignition module output (some millimeters), in your video your are at 1 or 2cm. So I will test with an other coil bigger, may be it could change something.
#2210
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Bert for your reply.
I did some new test yesterday, first on the 25LA engine. I separated the needle from the back cover of the engine to reduce vibration on the needle, it's a bit better, but always after some minutes of running the engine cut from bubbles come from the carb, may be an heat issue?
I don't know how to insulate the carb without disconnect it from the engine?
The LA series with the needle separate from the carb seem to be not the best design.
I did some new test yesterday, first on the 25LA engine. I separated the needle from the back cover of the engine to reduce vibration on the needle, it's a bit better, but always after some minutes of running the engine cut from bubbles come from the carb, may be an heat issue?
I don't know how to insulate the carb without disconnect it from the engine?
The LA series with the needle separate from the carb seem to be not the best design.
Then again, it must be remembered, your engines both are bushed engines, which means there is friction, and thus heat generation exactly where the carb is mounted.
My tests with the OS FP10 were very limited (maybe total 15 minutes of runtime when the project got halted) so I cannot really say much about that.
All my other 2-strokes have ballbearings, meaning the front of the engine remains a lot cooler.
After I did some new to test on the 25RC without solenoid and a good sealing on the needle and the carb, the engine work well with no cut, just some RPM variation when the plane is vertical. So I did a fly test, but with the gasoline conversion it seems a little underpowered.
It should however, be sufficient to fly a light plane like a Robbe Charter for general sports flying.
I would expect it to spin an APC 9 x 4 at 10K or slightly below.
MIND YOU: at this stage (low powered engines) optimizing propeller choice can make a huge difference,and here it helps to understand that in general, a gasoline conversion shifts the "focus" of an engine a little bit towards lower RPM on heavier props.
As an example: My ASP FS30 fourstroke is fairly comparable to your RC when it comes to power. It is mounted on a Robbe Charter of 2,1 kilo (aillerons, no dihedral).
I tested with 9 x 4, 9 x 5 and 9 x 6 props. According to the power calculations, 9 x 4 resulted in the highest output (measured in Watt) but 9 x 5 gave a better flight performance. I only get a meagre 180 W from that engine, but despite that, it is more than enough for flight instruction including landng and take-off.
I did also a test with gasoline mix only with castor to check if it could change the bubbles problem but it's worse than the 2 stroke synthetic oil, so I come back with 10% of fully synthetic.
So, this morning I buy a new used engine, an OS 40SF, I saw in your YouTube channel than you have already test one (without solenoid I think) and it seems work well, I hope it will be the same for me.
For my strobe light, I put a little coil and it work but I must be very close to the ignition module output (some millimeters), in your video your are at 1 or 2cm. So I will test with an other coil bigger, may be it could change something.
If I mount the ignition box in the proper orientation in the plane, close to the skin, sometimes I can pick up the signal on the outer surface of the fuselage. Most planes, I need to open a cover and access the ignition box from the inside. Taping a stick to the coil helps in narrow fuselages.
Last edited by 1967brutus; 09-25-2024 at 10:52 AM.
#2211
I swapped this morning the 20H carb of the 25LA, by a 3A carb found in my club (I think it's a carb from a 40FP).
I secured all possible leak issue with sealant + hose on needle.
Engine seems to work just perfect! (And with only castor oil, no synthetic)
Maybe a 2A carb should be more suitable, but I don't have it.
Tomorrow I will do a flight test with a 9x5 prop.
And maybe I will use the 40SF for an other plane.
I secured all possible leak issue with sealant + hose on needle.
Engine seems to work just perfect! (And with only castor oil, no synthetic)
Maybe a 2A carb should be more suitable, but I don't have it.
Tomorrow I will do a flight test with a 9x5 prop.
And maybe I will use the 40SF for an other plane.
#2214
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I was not out to find a fuel to the engine, I was out to adapt an engine to the fuel of my choice. Running a DIFFERENT not-common availlable fuel would defeat the purpose of the mod...
I have done several "acoustic" mods (no solenoid and no electronics apart from the ignition) and that worked OK in itself, but was a bit of a hit-or-miss affair, and most of all, the exhaust residue was very black. Much easier to clean than the glowfuel goo, but still a mess. Throttle response also was fairly inconsistent.
That all changed when I got the solenoid working. Never explored different fuels or systems, just kept refining this one.
I am baffled by the vapour problem you encounter.
Having said that, I would expect E85 to work just OK, albeit with a fairly significant higher fuel consumption, and probably you would need a different oil to blend with that. Not sure about that last bit.
Last edited by 1967brutus; Today at 07:16 AM.
#2215
Now in France we find E85 everywhere at gas station, and the price is 0,7€/L compared 1,6€/L for 95E10.
And the E85 is an alcohol base not so far from the methanol.
So I did a flight this afternoon with the 25LA and E85 + 15% castor oil (I don't know if it's a good percent?)
With E85 the needle must be richer.
And the engine run very well, the plane has enough power, so I'm happy with setup 😁
For the solenoid, don't worry, I will use it with an other setup on an other plane.
I learned a lot with this conversion / issues / and your answers. 😉
I will try now to get the RPM on the Taranis.
And the E85 is an alcohol base not so far from the methanol.
So I did a flight this afternoon with the 25LA and E85 + 15% castor oil (I don't know if it's a good percent?)
With E85 the needle must be richer.
And the engine run very well, the plane has enough power, so I'm happy with setup 😁
For the solenoid, don't worry, I will use it with an other setup on an other plane.
I learned a lot with this conversion / issues / and your answers. 😉
I will try now to get the RPM on the Taranis.
#2216
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Now in France we find E85 everywhere at gas station, and the price is 0,7€/L compared 1,6€/L for 95E10.
And the E85 is an alcohol base not so far from the methanol.
So I did a flight this afternoon with the 25LA and E85 + 15% castor oil (I don't know if it's a good percent?)
With E85 the needle must be richer.
And the engine run very well, the plane has enough power, so I'm happy with setup 😁
For the solenoid, don't worry, I will use it with an other setup on an other plane.
I learned a lot with this conversion / issues / and your answers. 😉
I will try now to get the RPM on the Taranis.
And the E85 is an alcohol base not so far from the methanol.
So I did a flight this afternoon with the 25LA and E85 + 15% castor oil (I don't know if it's a good percent?)
With E85 the needle must be richer.
And the engine run very well, the plane has enough power, so I'm happy with setup 😁
For the solenoid, don't worry, I will use it with an other setup on an other plane.
I learned a lot with this conversion / issues / and your answers. 😉
I will try now to get the RPM on the Taranis.
€0,70/L is a good price, given that Ethanol contains only less than half the energy compared to gasoline, so it figures that the needle has to be quite a bit more open. Fuel consumption will be close to double compared to normal gasoline.
Ethanol has wider ignitable range than gasoline, so mixture is less critical, and your carb is calibrated for alcohol..
A possible downside is that oils soluable in alcohols, also absorb water, but the spark ignition allows for a way leaner setting, which should keep the exhaust goo (that we all know from methanol and glow ignition) at bay. Keep in mind, you need a slightly different ignition timing.
Most likely a bit more advanced. How much, I cannot tell, but it is relatively easy to figure out by shifting ignition one degree at a time and measure peak performance (every timing adjustment also requires a minor needle tweak).
I would expect it to be in the neighbourhood of 30~35 deg before TDC).
However, the price being lower, but consumption going up, and the increase in oil content, you won't save much money compared to gasoline, and flight time won't be great (about the same as for glow fuel). Compared to glow, you still will save a bit though.
I cannot comment on your oil requirement, only that you most likely can NOT use common 2-stroke oil with E85, but will need either Castor or the types of oil used in glow fuel.
#2218
Most here in the US that have E85 (flex fuel) autos don't use that stuff. Most use ethanolated gas or for high performance good ol' 100% gasoline. No problem getting 87-92 octane non-ethanolated fuels here. No "Queen" here either, unless the election turns hard to the left.
Last edited by Glowgeek; Today at 01:47 PM.