mvigod

I'm looking at some baby steps to help increase the flow of info here on RCU while not upsetting the delicate balancing act that everyone is quite aware of. The proposal is below. I'd like comments and feedback from members and mfg's.


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All current advertisers (shown by our sponsor list) would be allowed to post and reply to add any product information they want to existing threads. The only limit would be no outright advertising like "click here to visit my website..this on sale blah blah" type stuff. Advertisers could add video links, build threads, photos, answers, extra product info. Their employees and reps have the same rights. No "bumping" or spamming within threads. Additionally we might limit them to responding ONLY to threads that have at least 8 posts of "significant" content (no replies like "cool man") and at least 4 distinct posters. This would raise the bar to ward off "shill post starters" and foster genuine interest. This is basically an anti-spam measure.

For advertisers who have been advertising for 3+ consecutive months here on RCU the following would apply:
These companies would be allowed to post a new product announcement in the most applicable forum once per week total maximum. The product must either be a recent release of 60 days or less OR a future release product. The vendor could discuss product details, videos, building tips, build steps, etc. Basically they could showcase the product. No bumping by vendor allowed unless pertinent product info is added to the thread.

One thing I am on the fence with is whether to allow non-advertisers the right to post one announcement per month in an applicable forum or not. This is tough cause there are guys making 5 digits a month who would post for free but refuse to support the site. I dont' think this is fair to the current advertisers who try to play on a level field here. Remember, all vendors can, and have always been allowed to answer any direct questions about their products and support them when specifically requested.

I think these simple changes will help maintain a less restricted flow in the forums while not submarining the fabric that holds rcu together with its current advertisers. I am quite hesitant to open this up to non advertisers because I do not think it is fair to our current advertisers who, because of their support RCU can provide its services.

Keep in mind these are baby steps which hopefully will be a move towards getting more information that the members want, keep the advertisers happy and keep the flood of useless and annoying spam in check.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Glad to see that you are still always looking for ways to innovate.

The proposal seems quite reasonable at first glance. Will your mod's have tools available to help them with this policy though, or would things like determining how many times manufacturer XYZ made a promotional post in the last week / month / etc be manual ?

Creating tools to help could be a chunk of work for you ; conversely, a manual approach will lead to some "inequity" (some people's trangressions being noticed while others are not), and even if these are simple human errors, the conspiracy theorists will once again have a field day denouncing the mod's for whatever imagined bias.

One interesting irony, is that right now you actually give no preferential treatment to paying advertisers but some people refuse to believe that; this approach will actually finally give them some preferential treatment... while that is not a bad thing IMO (reward them for paying the fees that keep RCU alive), you should be aware that in some people's minds you will now be "proving that they were right all along". So, be prepared for that, but don't let them draw you into a catfight about it.

mvigod

Gordon - yes if this works and functions to everyones benefit I would create the tools we spoke about some time ago. A counter for commercial advertisers to use "credits" and markings that mods could see to enforce and limit them. There is no preferential treatment notwithstanding the stuff that slips under the radar here. It is made clear to all vendors that commercial posting is not allowed but with the recent expression that things could be changed for the better we have been looking at this. RCU will always listen and evolve as necessary to serve its members. This possible initiative is a step towards that.

Many have wanted to see more info from vendors or reps. More photos, build threads, videos and such. This proposed rule would open that up to those who support the site. So if the argument would be that every vendor should be allowed to do this I just don't see how RCU could survive. We spend almost 5 digits per month now on hosting plus have to pay for 3 full timers and a handful of part timers to keep this thing rocking. I think this proposal opens up the flow of information that the members want to a large degree. While some small (and large) operations might be left out the truth is that most are in or could be easily. Big players like BVM or even the one/two man shops that might gross 5 digits a month will be left out of this if they aren't current advertisers but I think everyone realizes there must be a level of fairness to the paying advertisers who support RCU.

razorice79

My Feedback: (1)

Great! Sounds like we've good a weiner!!

(sorry about spelling, WINNER.. lol)

[sm=idea.gif]RaZoR

Terry Holston

My Feedback: (1)

I like the first spelling better.LOL

Marc, sounds like a good idea to me, Go for it and see how it works.

jetflyer

My Feedback: (5)

Why not create an Advertisers forum so those that want to find out more information (Product news, sales, etc) can go there and see the post. People come to RCU mainly for information, not necessarily just for reading ads for products.

I've also seen a few post from current advertisers giving out information that I feel should be kept on their companies website or specifically between them and their customers. I come hear to receive and give information based on experience and not to know when someone's order will be shipped or delayed for example. Another reason for Advertisers to have a forum so stuff like that can be communicated if they so choose.

Then you also have to look at the little guy. Someone who develops a new product, makes a post to see if there is any interest in the product on the forums. He might not be an advertiser just yet, but if business takes off he could be at a later date. And I know a few current advertisers now that started out like that.

A positive note, and not necessarily because I was able to take advantage of it. I did like your recent change/requirement for those involved in a business to list their affiliation in their signature. Makes it easy to distinguish people and contact the ones who I need to do business with or want further information about a product.

Best regards,

JR Gautreaux

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

I'm gonna give this one some think.....

However, I'd like to point out that there is a calm little forum called Turbine Clinic where most turbine manfacturers/distributers/reps can support their products whether they are advertisers or not.... As far as I know, it has been very well behaved. As such I'd call it a quiet success!

Why not replicate something like this?

jetflyer

My Feedback: (5)

Nony,

That is exactly what I am talking about. Give the Advertisers their own forum.

JR Gautreaux

mvigod

JR - we do have a "Product & Announcement" forum but it is not highly traveled and everyone wants to be right in the headlights so to speak. this would be the reason to allow something like we are proposing. Alternately we could disallow new threads and just let advertisers "announce" by way of their ads here and then give liberty for them to respond to direct questions or with extra product info based on the 8 post with 4 distinct poster rule.

The support forums have always in the past been open to anyone. advertiser or not. I created those as was my intention that if any mfg could support their products it was good for the members here and good for the mfg. I did not see it as a promotional venue to disseminate product info but rather to support it. I fear closing this to only advertisers will take away some member benefits it provides.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

There's already a Product Announcement forum that permits much of the above, but whenever this has been brought up on the past, various members in the jet forum make a big fuss about having to look in any forum other than jets - they feel that everything must come straight to them, rather than them having to do something as dificult as visit 2 forums instead of 1.

jetflyer

My Feedback: (5)

Gordon,

Well I see your point, but as Nony suggested and I guess more of what I was trying to suggest as well. Why not have a sub forum (like the turbine support forum) within each main forum for such news. (ie. Advertisements) Where only paid Advertisers could post, thus allowing any additional information to be handled offline and in direct contact between the advertiser and the potential customer. And at the same time we would not necessarily have to leave the Jet forum for example.

Mark might even charge a posting fee for non paid advertisers to post in those sub forums perhaps without having to pony up for a banner ad.

Just a suggestion

JR Gautreaux

GlennisAircraft

My Feedback: (1)

I'd like comments and feedback from members and mfg's.


My question is what is going to happen in the situation of the flagrant bashing of a Mfg. which is (was in my case) absolutely criminal (under libel laws) for lack of a better word.

Although I realize that the rest of you may not be privy to the situation, but Marc knows the few examples we have spoken about on the phone, and there seems to be an anti-mfg. trend brewing here. I'm curious to know what happens now when these "reps" (as I am satisfied was the case in my situation) or otherwise telling outright lies to sway customers. Is a manufacturer going to be allowed to respond to this? - how is it to be handled? I'm talking about the situation where a "user" makes outright false claims, 'flips' threads, and targets a company specifically as a couple of users have done with us (and neither are banned by the way).

An idea I think would be better (or as good) - Allow the paid advertisers to post a link to the new products forum (but no more) - this increases traffic in the new prod. forumn, encourages others to post there, and pushes the advertisers more. If you are not interested in that product, you don't even follow it.

Dennis

mvigod

Dennis - the bashing issue is separate from this issue. I would take that up in a different thread so we don't cloud the current topic

So far the bulk of collected feedback in this thread and through emails/PM's has me leaning towards allowing genuine build threads to take place for paying advertisers. Not allowing announcements (that is what the ads are for most believe..announce a product through an ad here) because the spam effect may become annoying. Give some leeway to the paying advertisers to reply to threads concerning their products by allowing them to add any product info not already provided but not overt advertisement replies.

Keep the feedback coming.

GlennisAircraft

My Feedback: (1)

Dennis - the bashing issue is separate from this issue. I would take that up in a different thread so we don't cloud the current topic

Yeah, just to be clear - I'm not trying to stir up stuff - but trying to be clear on what direction we are going in - don't want to step on toes when I post here (in jets) but do get concerned when it affects other foumns that I am very active in.

Dennis

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Marc, I'm not sure I follow your logic.

A paying advertiser would be able to respond and suggest products he sells, but BV himself would not be able to come in and offer his retract unit for a bobcat in a thread where someone is asking what retracts would be best for a bobcat?

It's an extreme example, but just trying to make sure I understand. I mean, think of it from the searching guy. I don't see robart posting in these forums, but the guys with experiance all say the 630 unit is best for a kangaroo. Even though that question comes up about 5 times a year or more, I would want the ability to have an open communication as a user of RCU with the manufacturer of a product regardless of whether they pay to use this site.

Did you see the post I made on Wren's behalf a few days ago related to autostart? I believe Wren pm'd me the information because they were either afraid to post it themselves, or ??????? I personally believe anyone should be able to post on here just about anything they want. Threads that have no value die quickly, and those that peruse the forums find what they are looking for very quickly. Anyway, that's just what I think.

Oh, here's an idea. You know how when you are looking at the jets for sale, you can pick to turn off or turn on commercial posts?? Can commercial posts by manufactures be an option for regular users (whether to see them or not) and maybe when posting a commercial post you can push a check box saying this post is a commercial post?? Does this make any sense?

patf

My Feedback: (4)

marc

i like the idea but would limit the post to a post only, that is no replys to an advertiement or info post. that way it will show up, and also it would show up in a search of this forum. as for the advertiser, vs 3+ advertiser, vs a non advertiser. well you all get to deal with the pain of sorting that out.. i know when i ran my jet biz years back, if i was paying, i wanted to be treated like everyone else who was paying...

mvigod

Sean - to answer your question. Any non bvm affiliated member could suggest the bvm product. just not a bvm rep. this is relative to your example. If a specific questions were asked of the bvm product then as always, bvm could respond. They just cannot offer their product as a solution to a generic questions "what is the best retract...?" and cannot offer additional product info which is not specifically asked for by a member. Again in this example, robart who is a paying advertiser could respond to the generic question and let the user know their retracts would work for the user and add product information. To reiterate any member can always respond freely about any product if they are not affilliated.

Also, the funny thing is that RCU rules from day one were the same as they are no regarding commercial posts. We even had no advertisements for the first 4 months or so since RCU started. Even then we had a strict rule of no ads, no spam and no commercial posts. This was at a time where we did not have to deal with any advertising issues either way. This concept and rule has always served the membership well. I've received PM's and emails with many concerned about any changes from the "original formula" of 3 years now which has proven so very successful notwithstanding the displeasure of a few vendors. However when it comes to posting in the forums our primary goal has always been to cater to the members with unbiased flow of information. I still fear any change of the original formula will upset what has proven, for better or worse, to work well despite the few shortcomings.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Ok, I assume you have different costs associated with advertising, so presumably I could buy the lowest cost ad, and keep a look out for questions related to a product that I might sell, and then jump in their and say "My widget works for this and here's the website adderess to buy it".

And presumably this would do a few things:

1) More product representation, in other words, if I ask which is the best fueling method, Jersey Modeller, and others are going to jump in there and say "mine is because..........."

2) Now as a user I get more people coming to me with their stuff, and the database get's better becuase looking for retracts for a Planes Plus F-86 and now I've got a thread search for this where it's been answered by three different vendors (possibly).

The downside of this from the vendor standpoint is that they pay the ad fee, but how often does a question come up that they can offer a solution for, in otherwords, gonna put a full time man on scanning the threads for questions he can offer product on? Does not make sense?? Plus now they have to defend their product publically, and the better vendors I just don't see getting in a pee match with other guys, but what do I know.

Where exactly is the downside for the user? I want to see threads saying "Look at our new retracts for the Yellow Aircraft F-15".
I want to see threads that say look at our new fueling jug that's better than Jersey Moddeler and half the price. I want to see Jersey Moddeler guy in their saying, well not really, consider this.

I love competition amongst vendors, whatever can be done here in the Jets forum to create an environment for that, would be great, all being said though, I don't think it's gonna be so problematic as is anticipated. I just don't see that many vendors seeing a huge impact from this forum.

My vote continues to be completely open it up, less profanity and the other obvious moderator stuff, and see what happens. I can't imagine that it's going to suck.

Sean

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Mmmm .. it might be valid to say that the overall INTENT was the same from day one, but the rule have been tweaked, reworded, etc multiple times, as has the enforcement.

I know that when I first started moderating, the rules had not been "fleshed out" much, and little enforcement was needed or done. A few months after that the volume of product pushing grew seemingly overnight as more manufacturers discovered RCU, and only at that point did we start being asked to clamp down ... and when we pushed back and asked "what are the limits that are allowed", the rules got reworded a bit.

BTW for Sean - you asked about the downside for the user... apart from any possible issues involving list revenue to RCU with attendant loss or lowering of service that RCU might offer, the product pushing definitley CAN become extremely annoying and SPAM-like. I guess it all just depends on how pushy some of the members are.

I recall one particular guy who discovered the power of RCU and decided to use it to push the line of engines that he was selling. However, he didn't just reply to engine-related threads with info about his engines - he did his darndest to fit an ad into every single thread ... someone asks "Does anyone have any info on the Facet kit?" and our guy responds with "It's a great kit - especially if powered by <turbine brand name withheld>, which coincidentally we have in stock right now for immediate delivery - contact me ASAP", etc., etc. ad nauseum - I swear that if there was a thread about pantyhose, that guy would have made some ridiculously tenuous connection between those pantyhose and the fact that he had some engines that he was just dying to sell to you He was actually a really nice guy, but it all just got a bit much. Figuring out how to word (enforceable) rules to prevent that kind of abuse, without cracking down "too" much isn't all that easy. Several times I tried to come up with some rules that would allow some more leeway without being wide-open - each time, I failed because the results were either too full of obvious holes, or practically impossible to explain and/or enforce.

Later,
Gordon

mvigod

Sean - gordon is correct here. Do you know what users HATE most about newsgroups? SPAM! Ads! There is no rules or enforcement on what is allowed. What you propose is to open it up completely which would make the forums a haven for spammers. I've seen dozens of forums die because of this. Heck if this was the answer the NG's would be popular and not RCU which has risen to a memberbase over 100,000 in just 3 years. Oddly enough this simple formula we have has served us well for years. As RCU grew so did the incentive for advertisers to push product.

While you may think that RCU doesn't have the punch or visitorship, the numbers tell a different story. I have vendors who literally say we can make or break them with our site and that I don't fully understand the power of the site. I'm not making this up and I have heard this from quite a few vendors unsolicited. I however do understand the power and the numbers here. I respect it and want to do what is best, fair and right for everyone at all times. Among the solutions proposed now, opening up things completely as you suggest is not the right thing so let's put that one to bed and focus on other possible ways to improve.