SmoothPass

Hi all.

Could anyone try and steer me in the right direction please.

Just trying to sort out what way to go with setting up my compositearf superExtra

I will be using a powerbox I think, probably the DuraliteSC
What would be a safer setup ?, duel JR 649 receivers or just one JR R1000DS receiver?

And if I go duel receivers how close can they be sitting next to each other? can both of them fit on the powerbox?

And in the comparf manual it shows the receiver antenna taped to the carbon fibre cross bars in the canopy area, is this safe to do? I have always tried to keep my arial away from carbon fibre.

It also seems there are some rumors of problems with duel setups with JR, should I maybe consider Futaba? I will be buying a new radio for this plane so any suggestions would be most appreciated.

JR wise would the 3810 radio be just as safe as the 10X to use? or does the 10X have more modern filtering and stuff? Safety with this sixe of plane is my main priority.

Thanks for your help guys!.


And

PaulBK

the first question i have to ask is why you want to use dual receivers - JR/Horizon has never endorsed dual receiver, in fact, based on their own tests, they advise against it. none of the arguments in support of dual receivers have been proven, it was a trend that got started, had a lot of followers, but has never been proven to be necessary. On the other hand, a single receiver has been proven to be able to easily withstand even the stalled loads of a 40% airplane. Last, in the middle of 2004, JR Horizon included in their quarterly sales catalog a visual description of QQ's installation in his TOC airplane. A single receiver. I have several friends who are flying 40% and larger airplanes on a single receiver - including JR's Team Manager, Peter G.

SmoothPass

Hi PaulBK, thanks for your input.

Its all new to me, I was just thinking that dual receivers might have offered some extra security?. Just in case one receiver failed I would still have control of half the plane.

The way QQ did it sounds okay, I dont mind buying some matchbox's.

A powerbox does interest me, for the reliabily of power,(eg:dual batts) ferrite rings, no need for regulators and so on.

So you think a single r1000 receiver would be the safer option over two 649 receivers?

Thanks again for your input.

Homebrewer

My Feedback: (8)

I'd go with dual battery switches and dual batteries before I go with dual receivers.

SmoothPass

Yep thanks.

Is a dual switch like a swicth that has two inputs and two outputs, eg: 2 batts in to it, and two power leads out to the receiver? and if I had two of these setup would that mean I (need to)should plug four power leads into the receiver?.

And I assume if I dont go with a powerbox I just use regulators inline with the switches?.

What apeals to me about the powerbox setups is the fact that they make it sound much more redundant?.

Also in the Comparf manual it shows the receiver arial sticky taped to the carbon fibre cross bars in the canopy area. Is this safe to do?? I have always tried to keep the receiver arial routing well away from carbon fibre?. Whats the go?

Hmm at this stage I guess for me I'm still undecied. I still need to buy my radio, JR or Futaba, I dont care, although I'd say, will go JR since I have already got 12 new 8611's sitting here.My worry being that I dont want to mix brands. EG: JR servo's futaba TX RX.

So, next question, which JR TX to get.
Would the (does the) 3810 TX transmit with the same technology as the 10X transmitter?

And if I went the 3810 would it be just as safe as a 10X for my plane? And with the 3810 what receiver should I use???? the one it comes with???? or should I buy a R1000 receiver? Would the 3810 pcm transmit to the R1000 receiver just the same as the 10X would?

Reason I ask all this, is I see something in the JR info that says the 10X has all new tripple fitering? But does that mean the 3810 only has double fitering?

Please help.......

Best Regards
Smoothpass.

PS.... Just in dream land, If the Futaba 14MZ was available here in OZ, I thinks thats what I would get, it looks sweat!. Pity I dont think it will be available in OZ, and if it is it will be years away!
Anyone know what would happen if I bought one from the states on 72mhz and used it in OZ? who would I be likely to upset? or get hits from? Dont worry I'm not going to, just am interested though!.

PaulBK

you want to be careful not to reinvent the wheel here...first, the servos have no idea what is telling them what to do, so it doesn't matter if it is jr or fut. all the higher end jr radios all use the same rf section (the module) so i am not clear on what filtering you are referring to. any actual filtering would occur at the receiver, and the best of the jr receiver is the dual conversion, not sure of the current number. on the other hand, i know a lot of guys, including me, who use the single converstion pcm and have no reason to change. the 8103 (the us name) is fine, as is the 9303, as would be the 10X. the difference is features, but any will do a respectable job. and like the servos, the receivers don't know or care from what the signal comes from - 8103, 9303, 10X, or a lower end JR pcm radio. so you can mix this transmitter with that receiver.

probably best to keep the antenna away from the carbon, but it doesn't mean it has to be run out on the wing.

the powerbox is a personal choice. i personally don't see a need for them, but there are plenty of opposing positions. but it isn't something to sweat over - if you want one, use one. if you don't get one, you will likely never miss it.

i agree with homebrew...single receiver, two batteries, two switches (all independent) and you are good. the batteries go into the switch as normal, one switch goes into the receiver as normal, the other into an open servo channel, or it shares it (using a y) with the servo. this is a popular method, simple and it works.

regulators are another personal choice, but if you get them, be careful and make sure they can handle the loads of a big airplane - not all can. bob ritchey of smart fly makes good regulators. but depending on what you use for a battery pack - you may not need them.

my two cents, keep it simple. no power box, no regulators, no high dollar batteries.

Matchboxes are great for ganging servos.


Build it, fly it. all of these worries will vanish after your first landing. make sure your ailerons aren't reversed.

P

SmoothPass

Hi PaulBK.
Thankyou for taking time to write a very helpfull reply. Thanks.

Yes simple setup does sound better to me. And much cheaper too!.

Okay thanks for all your help guys.

Will let you know which way I go.

Best Regards
Smoothpass

Garber16

My Feedback: (3)

SmoothPass,
Keep in mind your "cheaper" comment has relevance to the price of your plane. Is $250 cheap compared to the $3500 you just spent to set up your CA? I witnessed a WH Edge go straight into the ground last weekend at 1/2 throttle due to receiver failure. I personally had a 33% Hangar 9 Cap go in 4 minutes into it's maiden flight. Receiver locked out - wish I had two in that plane. I flew with single receivers for a long time and had no problem, but for my $3K+ planes I want two switches, two batteries, two receivers. This way you have redundancy. The Powerboxes that Emcotec and Duralite produce all sound like great options and will most likely dominate the giant scale set-up scene as they come down in price. Just as Lithuim batteries have...and on that note, don't think twice about using them. Most crashes that are not pilot error come from dead batteries (usually not charged). There is nothing better (or safer) than charging a lithium battery and one month later getting the "let's go fly now" and having a 98% charge on you batteries! Plus on a 4400mah battery (x2) you can usually fly all day (7 flights) without recharging.

Don from Don's Hobby shop will corroborate this fact - he had a 40% saved when one receiver went bad. I like to see what the pro's use as well, but keep in mind they don't pay for most of their stuff - and every ounce counts for them!

All in all, it's like car insurance deductibles - you'll wish yours was $250 when you get in a wreck, but $1000 when you don't!

Gaaaz

If you want to use 2 receivers, take a look at the Emcotec DPSI Twin at [link]http://www.rc-electronic.com/html/englisch/englisch.html[/link]
This is a quote from their website:

In addition to the redundant power supply, the DPSI TWIN now also ensures redundancy of the complete receiver. The TWIN version is based on the DPSI RV LDO and enables the use of two receivers, which can be automatically switched between, at your option (depending on signal quality). This means that for the first time the entire receiver station is doubly secured. A failsafe signal of the receiver is used to switch over to the second receiver in case of a failure. Thus a total of 8 channels are completely switched over and distributed to 25 servo outputs.

Gr Gaaaz

SmoothPass

Thanks for your input 'Gaaaz' and 'Garber16'.

At this stage I'm still just as confused, but should have it sorted soon.

I will use a powerbox for sure, probably the SCversion.
As far as receivers go, as I get a bit closer hopefully you guys can help me make my mind up.

Personally, I would preffer to use dual receivers, for piece of mind. However I keep reading different bits of info about reduced range and so on with running dual receivers.
It also only seems to be with JR that the reduced range problems seem to occur when using dual receivers. This does worry me, if I knew how to route the dual arials, and knew that my range was'nt reduced or compromised then I wouold go dual for sure.

Still have to buy my new radio for this bird, and kindah leaning towards th JR10X, only because I already have started outfitting the plane with JR8611 servo's, and want to use all the same brand.

However, if I was sure that I was going the dual receiver option, I would probably buy a futaba radio. Unfortunatly here in Australia, there is not much info or prices available on Futaba equuiptment.So JR it will be.


All the best everyone.
Sorry to open up such a can of worms.
PS. Its funny with the "cheaper theme", what makes me think, is that a powerbox, lithium batts,dual receiver,and a 10X would set me back a couple of $1000, but if I just used my old ever reliable 6 channel JRpcm, no powerbox, but dual batteries, I could save heaps of money.
Then,,,,if(when) the plane goes in, I would at least have saved a few thousand bucks, and could nearly buy another plane!...Hmmmmmmmm, for me safety is the priority, so I will install a powerbox with duel batteries and switches, and I will get a new radio, and also test it out in a crappy plane for a good few weeks.
Only undecided bit now is dual receivers or not, and should I maybe consider Futaba?

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

There's nothing wrong with using 2 receivers or 1. The only way using 2 receivers is going to save you is if 1 receiver literally fails. If 1 receiver gets 'lockout' then the frequency that locks 1 receiver out will lockout the other if it's on the same frequency!!

Redundancy. The way most people are setting up a dual receiver plane is that 1 receiver controls half of the plane while the other receiver controls the other half, ie, 1 receiver will control an aileron, 1 elevator and maybe the engine kill switch while the other receiver controls the other aileron, other elevator half, rudder and throttle. If one receiver fails then you still basically have control over half of the plane. I've seen this happen a couple of times but the failure wasn't the receiver, it was the battery on one receiver which brings back if 2 batteries and 2 switch's were used on each receiver, or a jumper wire between the receivers, then the receiver wouldn't have lost power. If you use a jumper wire and 1 battery per receiver then you need to watch your batteries very close. The other way around this is a powerbuss system.

For me I like to keep it simple. The less components involved the better. I went with 2 receivers on my 3m extra only because it was my first 40% and I was worried about the current load on the receiver which I find now I didn't have to worry about at all. On my 39% edge I'm using 1 receiver, same with my jets.

Not all but most people that I've seen wreck claiming interference usually have had battery or switch failure. I've lost several planes because of switch or battery failure. The best precaution is to use 2 batteries and 2 switch's, just plug the extra switch into any of the not used channels on the receiver. Very simple. The planes I've seen lost because of interference was because of someone turning on a radio on the same frequency. Then it doesn't matter how many receivers you have on your plane, if they're on the same frequency, they'll all lockout!

Silent-AV8R

Another thing that I have seen is people incorrectly blaming the receiver. Things like a crystal falling out. That is NOT a receiver failure. That is an installation failure. If the receiver is getting enough vibration to rattle the crystal out of its socket I submit that it is getting enough to cause a failure.

Also, I see far too many receivers in large gas planes that are installed badly. Velcro attaching them to the airframe, or a single thin piece of foam under them. Again, if the receiver goes out, is this really a "failure".

Basically, run two receivers if it makes you feel good. But take the time to install BOTH of them correctly. Isolate them as well as possible from vibration and so on.

FWIW I fly a single RX in all my planes from park flyer to giant scale aerobatic planes. Never lost a receiver, but I have had 2 transmitters die in my hands.

famousdave

My Feedback: (61)

All - if you take a look at what all the "power flyers" (i.e. those who fly 40+ flights per week on large 40% planes) use as far as setups you will be
surprised. 90% of them are less complex that what is suggested above.

Powerbox - . is it needed, probably not, but on a large plane the weight is minimal and there are some bona-fide benefits.
Cleaning up the rats nest wiring is one of them. Current sharing is another. One more thing to go wrong is not one.


Dual Receivers - over rated. Having 1/2 control on a plane if one RX fails still nets a 99% chance of a crash so what are you gaining by using 2RX?? IMO Its like hiding under a tree during a lightning storm. You think you are safe but in reality you are not.


Dual batteries into the power box or into RX on dual regs and fail safe switches... good idea.. mandatory actually.. switches, regulators and even batteries DO fail, this has been proven many times.

Fiber Optic cut off on Ignition - good idea all GS planes should have this... the throttle servo is NOT the right way to cut off an ignition.. (ever see what happens when an ignition servo mount breaks and plane goes WOT??) Some people use the choke as a backup but it adds weight and consumes another RX channel, current, etc.. I usually make a mechanical choke mechanism.. . bullet proof, cheap and simple.


Antenna taped or run close to carbon fiber cross mesh - .. bad idea.... run the antenna tube in the center of the fuse above the pull-pull setup in a tube to protect it.


One can learn a lot from going to one of the national events where the masters fly. Their setups are clean, to the point and practically bullet proof. If they lose a plane its usually from structure failure or risk taking rather than electronics.

I learned a lot by looking under the canopy of many a TOC plane. I probably won't ever fly as good as them, but at least my setups will be as reliable.

I have set up every plane in the past two years (26, built for customers, friends, and myself)
2 were 40% planes (both Cardens) 17 were 28-35%.

2 Li-Ion batteries (capacity varies from 2200 to 4400), 2 duralite or equiv fail safe regs, into 2 receiver ports
1 Li-Ion 2200 on ignition, 5.1V fail safe regulator
JR 955 or R770 PCM receiver (10 channel or 7 channel depending on size of plane)
Custom short extensions with Ernst safety connectors installed on aileron wiring


I heat shrink the RX and wiring together and then wrap it all in 1/2" dense foam. That is velcro'd in place The one time I did not do this I had a plug come out of the RX.. fortunately it was only the engine kill switch and not a surface servo.... now ALL of my receivers get the heat shrink treatment. It was mentioned that someone had a crystal vibrate out... won't happen with the heat shrink in place.

The antenna is routed in a Nyrod casing as high up in the fuse as I can get it away from the pull-pull cables and tail wiring. Where the antenna goes into the tube, it is wrapped in a foam donut to avoid abrasion

Tail wiring is run in paper tubes to contain all of it so that its not flopping around or touching the pull pull or antenna tube(s)

Double layers of heat shrink is used on all hidden connectors (i.e those buried in wings or in the tail) where they are likely to never get inspected over the life of the plane. I solder where I can though even if it means cutting the connector off a servo.


I did not use powerboxes or dual receivers in any. It was not to save money, it was for simplicity.


None of this stuff is rocket science - I basically borrowed ideas from the masters.. McConnville, Hyde, Hempel, QueQui...

DP

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

In my Hangar 9 Ultimate, I ran 1 955 receiver, 14 8411's, 1 8231 (throttle), 2 receiver packs, 1 rudder pack, 5 matchboxes (1 in each wing, 1 for the rudder servos), and never had a single issue. When I first put this setup out publicly over a 15 months ago, I got some pretty angry mail from people telling me I was being cavalier and irresponsible in doing so. Now the majority of Team JR uses only 1 Rx. Myself, Pete, Mike Mc, Quique, etc.. 1 Rx.

There is absolutely no technical reason to run 2 receivers. If it makes you feel better.. then by all means do it. I however have seen the reduced range first hand using 2 and will never use 2 receivers again. This is not specific to JR either.. I've seen it at the TOC with a couple of the Futaba pilots in years past.. Any electronic component WILL emit rf to some degree and can interfere with other items. Not saying they will.. just that they can.

FWIW.. my current 40% Carden Extra runs 1 Rx with 8611's all around.

as722

My Feedback: (1)

Isn't it a fact that most T.O.C. guys are still using two receivers. I my self saved an airplane last year when one of the rudder servos shorted out causing the voltage to drop. The only reason the airplane is still around is because of the second receiver. Don't get me wrong I believe that Horizon has performed test showing reduction in range and I believe that it does happen, but at this point I like the advantages of using two receivers more than the disadvantages. BTW I have nothing but JR equipment.

Albert Santiago

SmoothPass

Thankyou heaps everyone for your time and help. I really appreciate it.

Okay what I'm planning on doing so far is using a powerbox SC, with dual lithium batts, and using the switch unit that comes with it,(not sure if its dual switch or not)
Then since I already have purchased 8611's all round, I'll get myself a 10X or a 9Xversion2.

As far as dual receivers go, I would like to give it a try. I will use the RDS1000 receiver,(receivers).
What I will do is set the plane up with one receiver first and do some range checks. Then I will plug my second receiver in and do some range tests again.If the range is still the same, I assume that it's safe?.
If range is still the same, I'll stick with running dual receivers, but if there is some range reduction, then I will leave just one receiver in the plane.

As far as ignition cut-offs go, and using a fibre optic cuttoff, is there any reason not to use one?
I mean can they(fuhup)and cause a deadstick?

In the manual for my DA150,(which I have'nt really read yet by the way), I think I remember reading something about making sure that the stuff that covers the spark plug leads must be kept very intact,eg:if the wrapping cloth(protective covering shield), is damaged on the spark plug or ignition leads,,,it may lead to interferance. Thats all okay, its brand new, and of course I would not use the plane if a lead was damaged....But to my question, would using an optical link avoid any potential interferance getting through if a plug or ignition wire was damaged?

Or what about some of the switches with regulators built in to them,,, some of them have RF fitlers,,, would this be some form of protection against motor interferance?


All the best all.
Smoothpass.

PS.. Because I'm using a powerbox,, in the event of one servo shorting out, would that cause a problem, or would my powerbox sc recognize that there is a short and stop delivering power to that 'bank' row of sevo's?
An if that is the case that the powerbox would stop power to that channel, I guess I better not run both elevators on one channel, cause if there was a short with one elevator servo it would mean that I would lose all elevator control. Maybe the powerbox just cuts power to the shorted servo, and not that whole channel??anyone know how it works?

Richi-d

First of all: The components on the SC Powerbox are all redundant. So- sure the switch, the regulator, pulse amplifiers everything is double.
Second: if one servo shortens, the leads to the servo will burn down. All Powerbox types are strong enough and deliver much enough current to burn servo cables down. Assumed your leads to the batteries are strong enough - they should come in 12 -14 AWG. All other servos will go one running. Try this with a receiver.....