AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

I know there's a diesel forum but while dabbling with conversions, and enjoying the benefits of this form of combustion in RC, it occurred to me that diesel might be ideal for round and round. Bigger prop, slower rpm, better fuel economy, quieter and with more torque on the uplines. Can a diesel be made to do the 2-4-2 break?

jehold66203

You need to contact Jim Thomerson or Lou Crane to find out about diesels. I only used them for F2C competition. They both have flown them at the VSC in Tuscon. DOC Holliday

Jim Thomerson

Diesels do not do 2-4-2. A properly tuned diesel runs the same speed all the time. My favorite is the Super Tigre G20-15 diesel, which as Bob Davis said, are almost too valuable to run these days.. Do you have some specific project in mind?

gcb

Andy,

Not all of us who participate on the Diesel forum fly just RC. Two engines I converted to CL are an MVVS .15, originally an RC version, and a Mills .75cc which was FF.

For the MVVS, I removed the carb and constructed a venturi. (I also have an MVVS .15 that was made as a CL.)

For the Mills 75, I only removed the fuel bowl. The needle can be revolved to point the spraybar outboard whether upright, inverted, or sideways.

I prefer purpose-built diesels but folks get good results from conversions also. As you get larger than .20ci, your choices of purpose-built diesels narrows rapidly.

George

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Jim, Doc,

Control line has a unique appeal that I never took time to appreciate. As I work with the Brodak .049 RC, his website reminded me of an aspect of modelling I might have enjoyed more. My thoughts were to build a small stunter (profile Nobler?) using a dieselized Norvel .074. Nothing fancy, no steel lines, just a simple stunter to get the feel of going round and round. And the more I play with diesel, the better I like all the things it does so much better than glow. Given that, I'm surprised that diesel doesn't dominate CL.

George,

Sounds like you like just about anything that flys. Back when I DID fly a bit of the round and round, I really enjoyed the direct contact with the plane. And with terrafirma so close you really had to pay attention. Lots of skill and artistry in CL, likely unappreciated by most. Guess I'm gettin' a little nostalgic in my old age.

I just wish there were more reverse cranks around to keep the lines tight. That was always my problem.

Jim Thomerson

With a dieselized 074 you will need steel lines, either 008 or 012, 40 to 50 ft long (don't really have a good figure for you). If you have not flown CL before, I'd suggest a simple all sheet trainer with things rubber banded together for crash survivability. Also set up for short flights at first, 10 laps or so, so that you don't get too dizzy.

I see you have done some CL before; even so, a fairly cheap and simple airplane to get reoriented and get over the dizzies is not a bad idea.

Jim Thomerson

A couple of comments on diesels for CL aerobatics or sport flying. This is what I think about diesels this week, and I may change my mind on some of it next week.

Properly adjusted, the diesel will hum along in level flight. It will run the same through maneuvers. If it slows in maneuvers, it is overcompressed; if it misses in maneuvers, it is a hair too lean. I wouldn't run anything but a uniflow tank which will give you consistent fuel feed from beginning to end. People complain that diesels are not consistent for aerobatic competition. I think this is because people change things between flights. Once I get a diesel (or glow engine) running right, I try to leave it alone. With most diesels this means leaving the compression set too low for easy hand starting, so I use a starter if needs be. Because diesels are very fuel efficient, a slight tweak in the needle will change run time for a particular tank much more than with a glow engine.

When I fire up a diesel, I expect it to run ragged and undercompressed while I walk out to the handle and put the safety thong on. But by the time I am ready to signal for release, the engine should be warmed up and running very nice. If it is running nice when I am half way to the handle, I expect it to run through the flight a little overcompressed. If it is not quite there when I am ready to fly, I expect a burp or two an the first couple of laps but then it is supposed to run fine from then on.

I may tweak compression just a hair, based on how the engine flew, and how the exhaust looks. I won't usually change the needle valve, unless I want to regulate run time.

gcb

Andy,

I think the reverse crank only applies to takeoffs for stunt. If you are relying on the torque to prevent the plane from rolling in on you, once you go inverted the torque would work against you.

I think a Brodak "Flying Clown" might work with the Big Mig .074 if the plane is built lightly.

I have converted a BigMig .074 to CL by installing a BigMig .061 CL venturi in the .074, but I have not yet run it. The throttled version with the throttle wired open should work well though. Good luck with your diesel version.

George

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,

Thanks bunches. Steel lines it is, then. I think I've got a U-Reely handle somewhere with steel. I guess Dacron just won't cut it. [:-]
Your notes on running diesel round and round is well put. However, my experience with the dieselized Norvel is that once it fires up, it comes up to temp and proper compression almost instantly. Once adjusted, I can whack it with the starter, grab the tx and just blast off. But yeah, dizzies. Come to think of it, I think queasy stomach was my downfall. No beans before flying? Special diet? [:@]

George,

The Clown sounds good. I understand Brodak makes quality stuff so it ought to be a quick build. May I suggest that you open up the venturi a bit to get more power. I typically do that on my .06 and .074s and with muffler pressure, have no problems.

Speaking of muffler pressure, would a stock RC tank work on a stunter? The clunk would gravitate to the outside of the line and with pressure to the tank, you should get pretty consistent runs, no? And one could adjust flying time simply by filling the tank less or more, as desired.

Good point about reverse crank and inverted. Never thought of that. I suppose having everything working for you, even torque when your inverted, is a specially good idea. And maybe inverted every now and then with reversed direction would help eliminate dizziness?

karolh

Reading these posts took me back in time to the early sixties when control line flying and diesel engines were all the rave here. My all time favourite engines were the UK manufactured ED Mills .75cc and the ED 2.5cc Red Head, both of which gave me many years of enjoyment.

After 20 years of absence from the control line ranks I am back, teaching my 7 year old grandson the art of CL flying. Of course he is more intrested in my big RC models, but I am trying to get him to understand that you have to start small.

Karol

BMatthews

Diesel combat is still alive and kicking here on the West Coast. Go to this page and you can read more about it....

http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/dieselco...age_diesel.htm

In fact there's a rare photo of me holding a couple of my planes. In the second pic on the page I'm the one kneeling on the right side holding the blue and yellow models.

I haven't done any for about 3 years now since I just plain got tired of fixing the darn things all the time but it sure is a lot of fun.

Diesels are a lot of fun to run if you have not done it before. But your flying clothes will stink something fierce! You also need to be sure to have fresh fuel as the ether will evaporate right through a metal container given time. Don't even THINK about storeing deisel fuel in a plastic bottle for more than a few days. In metal it's good for a season... or most of it at least....

Frankly there's enough proper deisels that I would not bother with conversions. Eric Clutton has the PAW line and maybe some others.

And if anyone is interested I've got a couple of the Chinese Seagull 15's that I'll part with. They are a nice little sport or trainer engine but don't have gobs of power. They start easilyand run consistently though. Would do nicely in a 36 to 40 inch span profile or very light built up stunter or just a lightweight (14 oz total) combat wing for sport flying. They don't come with any sort of muffler as they use the typical British style 4 exhaust ports in a ring around the raised cylinder liner.

vauxhall

How 'bout this diesel powered C/L'er. It's an Australian Aero-Flyte Mustang Trainer replica I built recently. My brother and I used to fly one just like it on a tennis court in the early 60's. Thats a 45 Y.O. Taipan 0.9 up front. Very small tank, still runs for about 6 minutes, which is more than enough time on 35' lines.............John

gcb

Andy,
Thanks for the venturi suggestion. In all likelyhood I will use a uniflow tank vented to atmosphere so I will need the fuel draw of the smaller venturi. I tend to run larger props and keep the RPM down. If it doesn't produce enough power that way, most likely I would install a larger engine.
BTW, my Flying Clown sports a Russian Mk-17 diesel (.09 ci).
Many people are using RC plastic tanks in CL but I believe most change the plumbing to uniflow. Some use muffler pressure, some do not.

Karolh,
Here is a rear-end pic of the India Mills 75 that I converted to CL.

Bruce,
That is an EXCELLENT site. I have often referred prople to it for diesel break-in.
I understand some folks have a dedicated set of "diesel" flying clothes.

George

karolh

Your Taipan engine reminds me of my 1961 (44 yr) K&B Torpedo 29R Greenhead glow engine which is in a CL Shoestring that still runs like a raped ape on full castor fuel.

Ahhhh, what a smell.

vauxhall

Hi karolh, you gotta love the aroma of diesel fuel. Speaking of good things, The West Indies, your cricket team is here for this summer, I'll be drinking some cold beer while watching all the games. We've gotta improve, after losing The Ashes to the Brits............John

karolh

Hey Vauxhall,

Why did you have to go and spoil my day by reminding me of that up coming series. I do believe we are going to get our ars.. kicked real good this time around, and I'm really not looking forward to seeing that happen.

With so little cohesion and so much disagreement within our cricket organization, it's no wonder the West Indies are performing so poorly. We could not have picked a worst time to play Australia especially now when they are still smarting from losing The Ashes to England.

We are gonna need a lot more than prayers to wiggle out of this one.

Karol

vauxhall

I know all this cricket stuff is way off topic, so I apologise to all, but I have to say The Windies are still called "The Kings of Cricket" down here............John

karolh

I too apologise to all for the diversion, but please understand that to a West Indian, the game of cricket is like manner from heaven.

Karol

Jim Thomerson

Incidentally, for those of you who fly Old Time Stunt in competition under PAMPA rules, this year there was a rule change which gives 5 bonus points if you are flying a diesel. I give you one guess as to who proposed same. Ignition engines get 10 points. I had originally thought 10 points for diesel. The ignition fliers did not like that, but were OK with 5 points. There have been times, when when my stuff was not working, that I have thought 50 points would have been more like it. []

j.duncker

My Feedback: (2)

http://www.eifflaender.com/

PAW short for Progress Aero Works are manufacturers of diesel engines for model aeroplanes [est. 1941].

Smallest 03 largest 60.

From memory I am pretty sure Tony has won UK stunt comps with the 40 sized diesel.

gcb

They should give 20 points if it is a fixed compression Drone or an original DEEZIL!

George

Jim Thomerson

I think you are correct about the wins in UK stunt. On another forum there is a post that Tony Eifflaender is developing an opposed twin 40 to cut down vibration. Estimated to sell for 300 pounds. From what I have read the PAW 40 sounds like a good stunt motor candidate. I've never flown a PAW. A friend has the double ball bearing 09 and it was quite impressive. In the same league as a TD 09, perhaps.

lildiesel

My first scratch built airplane (derived from some early 60s plan in MAN for a c/l called Mox Nix) was powered by an .049 Webra Piccolo. The little diesel drove my friends nuts since it it ran so much longer and so much more consistently than their Cox units.

These days the twin bearing ring P.A.W engines are incredible compared to my plain bearing Webra. Easy to start and great running. The .09 unit mentioned above will turn a 7x4 prop at TeeDee like rpm and also handle a 9x3 with almost the quietness of an electric when a few inches of exhaust tube is run off the muffler. I couldn't recommend a modern diesel any more highly for sport flying if you are willing to carefully learn the rather different starting and running characteristics.

Suggested reading: Eric Clutton's Dr. Diesel's Diary will tell you all you need to know unless you can find a diesel lover in your region to pass his knowledge and lore along to you at the flying field.

DesignMan

My experience with diesels in CL is pretty extensive. I campaigned a Super Clown with an OS 25fp/Davis conversion. I was very satisfied with the performance, but never conquered the variability problem. I may give it another go with Jim T's idea of using an electric starter and never touching any of the controls while starting. That could make a big difference.

The engine proved to be extremely durable, I know it ran through at least 3 gallons of diesel fuel, and was still going strong the last I heard. I have also dieselized the C*x Conquest .15 and OS .15s. They are the two most powerful .15 diesels I have tested so far. I just acquired a PAW .15, so that will be an interesting comparison.

As to the Baby Clown, I flew mine for years with a PAW 55 (.035 c.i.) and a Master Airscrew 6x3.5 prop. 3/8 oz of fuel would take me through the full pattern on 37' of .008 line. The model was finally wrecked in a demo flight at an airshow when it hit a traffic cone that was there to rope off the flying area. The engine was unharmed, so it will probably end up on another Baby Clown, or perhaps the Baby Flite Streak.