Twins ?
11-24-2002, 10:56 PM
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Twins ?
Hmmmmmmm.........a new Twin ?
Been flying a TwinStar all year with a pair of OS 26 4-strokes. What a sweet flyer !
Now I'm hooked on Twins !! More to go wrong, more adjustments to make, twice the problems, but fire 'em up and they sound great ! It's worth it !
I've been reading TwinMan's posts/replies/threads and have to agree with him 105% on making sure you have ABSOLUTELY dependable engines.
TwinMan has some good tips on flying Twins in the forum at RCWarbirds.com
MY OWN RULE #1 ON TWINS: Low airspeed (take-off) + high engine torque + flameout on one engine = immediate snap into the ground ! I'll testify to that !!
After reading TwinMan's review of the A-26 ARF at RCWarbirds, I decided 1 more twin-trainer was necessary before doing any serious building.
Joe Mamma
There's no such thing as gravity........the earth sucks !!
Been flying a TwinStar all year with a pair of OS 26 4-strokes. What a sweet flyer !
Now I'm hooked on Twins !! More to go wrong, more adjustments to make, twice the problems, but fire 'em up and they sound great ! It's worth it !
I've been reading TwinMan's posts/replies/threads and have to agree with him 105% on making sure you have ABSOLUTELY dependable engines.
TwinMan has some good tips on flying Twins in the forum at RCWarbirds.com
MY OWN RULE #1 ON TWINS: Low airspeed (take-off) + high engine torque + flameout on one engine = immediate snap into the ground ! I'll testify to that !!
After reading TwinMan's review of the A-26 ARF at RCWarbirds, I decided 1 more twin-trainer was necessary before doing any serious building.
Joe Mamma
There's no such thing as gravity........the earth sucks !!
11-24-2002, 11:56 PM
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twins
I am humbled in your presence.
The reason for my humble opinions being posted is to prevent, or at least assist, others from making the mistakes I made while getting started in twins.......and there were quite a few.
Flew another guy's VQ A-26 at the field with two Magnum .58 four strokes today.....not enough power. Scale like, yes, fun.....no.
Would fly on one engine......no way.
Flew my 108" P-38 trainer today.....still shaking but a good flight and the field loved it.
Both planes have gyros.
My two cents.
Twinman
The reason for my humble opinions being posted is to prevent, or at least assist, others from making the mistakes I made while getting started in twins.......and there were quite a few.
Flew another guy's VQ A-26 at the field with two Magnum .58 four strokes today.....not enough power. Scale like, yes, fun.....no.
Would fly on one engine......no way.
Flew my 108" P-38 trainer today.....still shaking but a good flight and the field loved it.
Both planes have gyros.
My two cents.
Twinman
11-26-2002, 05:59 PM
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I've test flown a 4-engine twin star !
I test flew my twin star with four...MECOA .32 ! Way to much power and found that the airframe was not able to handle the power. My wings were vibrating so much, on my first high speed pass that I landed the Twin Star SQed., and took her home. A good first flight, but to much vibratiion, even with balanced props.
So I removed the engines, and installed four OS Max .10's. I was able to remove the seven oz. of aft tail mounted lead, go from a 1200 ma. bat. to a 800 SR, installed dual main wheels, and to install the small .10, needed to rework the engine nacels, and install exhaust extentions.
Because of the first engine instilation, my model has engines mouinted on the wings that look like a Lockeed Electra turbo prop, but with all engines running, not a problem. Lose and outboard motor, and it will fly, but really wierd!
Four .15's is the way to go, but does just fine on .10's.
Bob Paris, Maui-Hawaii
So I removed the engines, and installed four OS Max .10's. I was able to remove the seven oz. of aft tail mounted lead, go from a 1200 ma. bat. to a 800 SR, installed dual main wheels, and to install the small .10, needed to rework the engine nacels, and install exhaust extentions.
Because of the first engine instilation, my model has engines mouinted on the wings that look like a Lockeed Electra turbo prop, but with all engines running, not a problem. Lose and outboard motor, and it will fly, but really wierd!
Four .15's is the way to go, but does just fine on .10's.
Bob Paris, Maui-Hawaii
11-27-2002, 03:36 PM
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Hey Joe,
I'm about to assemble the same setup that you have w/ the .26's. I was wondering about prop clearance. My field is grass, is the stock gear tall enough? I'm planning on using MA 9x6 props, what works best for you?
I'm about to assemble the same setup that you have w/ the .26's. I was wondering about prop clearance. My field is grass, is the stock gear tall enough? I'm planning on using MA 9x6 props, what works best for you?
11-27-2002, 06:59 PM
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Twin Star Sq.ed
Dear Sawyer692;
I bought the extra nacells from Tower Hobbies when I bought the kit. I also bought the extra nacell plastic covers too, from them. I turn 7 x 5 Zingers (I do not use plastic props-to much damage when flesh mets blades !), with my OS Max .10's.
The model is my fifth multi, and third-four engine model. It flies really sweet, thou you do need to carry power on approach. It really does drop from the sky when the power is set to idle...but very predictable and an excellent flyer all around. The Dual Main landing gear wheels do look supper cool, and help with the extra weight...thou really not needed. It was just for "wow" affect.
Replaceing the MOCEA .32's (an excellent engine), with the OS Max .10's created a loss of two pounds of weight ! But I did use four servo's (Airtronics 94102"s) in each nacell, per standard kit instilation.
I may add a much larger rudder, for it does yaw quite a bit with engine loss on the out board side. I had to go with 3 oz. Haynes fuel tanks for the out side necells, because Tower no longer carried the standard Twin Star fuel tanks. There were no 4 oz. tanks available that would fit inside the nacells. I would love a larger tank...but with the OS Max .10's I do get nine minutes of flight time...unlike the four minutes with the .32's.
The club members love when I fly her, and she does sound super in the air.
I've a F-82B with twin Custom Lee K & B .48'- Awsome performance ! And an older twenty year old model, of the M.E.N. Trainer Twin...another excellent model with two OS Max .10's, undercambered wing foil, and a suberb flyer.
Soft landings always,
Bob of Maui
I bought the extra nacells from Tower Hobbies when I bought the kit. I also bought the extra nacell plastic covers too, from them. I turn 7 x 5 Zingers (I do not use plastic props-to much damage when flesh mets blades !), with my OS Max .10's.
The model is my fifth multi, and third-four engine model. It flies really sweet, thou you do need to carry power on approach. It really does drop from the sky when the power is set to idle...but very predictable and an excellent flyer all around. The Dual Main landing gear wheels do look supper cool, and help with the extra weight...thou really not needed. It was just for "wow" affect.
Replaceing the MOCEA .32's (an excellent engine), with the OS Max .10's created a loss of two pounds of weight ! But I did use four servo's (Airtronics 94102"s) in each nacell, per standard kit instilation.
I may add a much larger rudder, for it does yaw quite a bit with engine loss on the out board side. I had to go with 3 oz. Haynes fuel tanks for the out side necells, because Tower no longer carried the standard Twin Star fuel tanks. There were no 4 oz. tanks available that would fit inside the nacells. I would love a larger tank...but with the OS Max .10's I do get nine minutes of flight time...unlike the four minutes with the .32's.
The club members love when I fly her, and she does sound super in the air.
I've a F-82B with twin Custom Lee K & B .48'- Awsome performance ! And an older twenty year old model, of the M.E.N. Trainer Twin...another excellent model with two OS Max .10's, undercambered wing foil, and a suberb flyer.
Soft landings always,
Bob of Maui
11-27-2002, 09:56 PM
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TwinStar
To: lowlander69
Re: TwinStar
I also fly off of grass. I run a pair of APC 9x6's. Ground clearance is OK with the stock landing gear as long as the grass has been cut on the short side. If the grass is long, the props will nick it slightly. Long grass seems to double my takeoff length. Once in the air, it flies sweet.
Make sure you crank in all of the rudder throw you can get (I doubled the recommended Hobbico spec.) If you get into trouble, the rudder can usually help you out. I discovered THIS after subsequent flights.
The ailerons are almost ineffective if you are in a takeoff mode, full power and loose 1 engine. This is probably the worse situation you can get into with a twin an invites an immediate snap. If you do lose an engine on takeoff, IMMEDIATELY cut power to an idle, and get on the rudder. Set up as you would normally for a dead-stick landing and land the plane with the good engine still running. I might take some flak for this, but it works for me.
The TwinStar will fly nice on one engine once in the air, as long as you don't panic or make any sudden or quick throttle changes, and remember to use the rudder. I consider myself a fair-to-midland flyer, and these are just my preference's.
I have quite a few OS engines. For whatever reason, these 26's were my first OS's that were very sluggish until they broke in (they ran, transitioned and idled OK, just a lack of power). If I remember, it took about 5 or 6 hard runs, and then they seemed to come alive. I now have about 40 flights on my TwinStar and love the plane. Ah, the sound of both of those 4-strokes in unison !!
If I could suggest, brake the engines in on the ground or on a test stand. Setting the idle and transition on these engines was a finicky operation. The idle screws seemed very sensitive to any adjustments. It took some playing, but I got them both dialed in.
I'm not to crazy about idle-bleed carbs ! As a starting point, gently place a small pin into the small hole located near the end of the idle screw. Back the idle screw out and then turn it in until it just touches the pin. This is a fairly good starting point for any idle adjustments.
If you have a computer radio, you can also match engine rpm's perfectly using the slave/master feature. This makes the engines sound really cool by simply operating a rotary switch.
One other thing really cool to do on a twin, if using a computer radio, is tying in the rudder to the engine speed on one engine. You can set a proportional amount of rudder to a proportional amount of engine speed. This is for taxiing only. Example: When right rudder is applied, the left engine speed increases. It looks and sounds really cool on the ground !!
Re: TwinStar
I also fly off of grass. I run a pair of APC 9x6's. Ground clearance is OK with the stock landing gear as long as the grass has been cut on the short side. If the grass is long, the props will nick it slightly. Long grass seems to double my takeoff length. Once in the air, it flies sweet.
Make sure you crank in all of the rudder throw you can get (I doubled the recommended Hobbico spec.) If you get into trouble, the rudder can usually help you out. I discovered THIS after subsequent flights.
The ailerons are almost ineffective if you are in a takeoff mode, full power and loose 1 engine. This is probably the worse situation you can get into with a twin an invites an immediate snap. If you do lose an engine on takeoff, IMMEDIATELY cut power to an idle, and get on the rudder. Set up as you would normally for a dead-stick landing and land the plane with the good engine still running. I might take some flak for this, but it works for me.
The TwinStar will fly nice on one engine once in the air, as long as you don't panic or make any sudden or quick throttle changes, and remember to use the rudder. I consider myself a fair-to-midland flyer, and these are just my preference's.
I have quite a few OS engines. For whatever reason, these 26's were my first OS's that were very sluggish until they broke in (they ran, transitioned and idled OK, just a lack of power). If I remember, it took about 5 or 6 hard runs, and then they seemed to come alive. I now have about 40 flights on my TwinStar and love the plane. Ah, the sound of both of those 4-strokes in unison !!
If I could suggest, brake the engines in on the ground or on a test stand. Setting the idle and transition on these engines was a finicky operation. The idle screws seemed very sensitive to any adjustments. It took some playing, but I got them both dialed in.
I'm not to crazy about idle-bleed carbs ! As a starting point, gently place a small pin into the small hole located near the end of the idle screw. Back the idle screw out and then turn it in until it just touches the pin. This is a fairly good starting point for any idle adjustments.
If you have a computer radio, you can also match engine rpm's perfectly using the slave/master feature. This makes the engines sound really cool by simply operating a rotary switch.
One other thing really cool to do on a twin, if using a computer radio, is tying in the rudder to the engine speed on one engine. You can set a proportional amount of rudder to a proportional amount of engine speed. This is for taxiing only. Example: When right rudder is applied, the left engine speed increases. It looks and sounds really cool on the ground !!
11-27-2002, 10:12 PM
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Twins ?
I'm on my third Twinstar, and I love it!
The first one I had no right to fly, too inexperienced. Flameout during initial climb, tried to hold altitude, 18 seconds of twin experience and...... boom.
The second I flew for three years and sold at auction.
The third I fitted with TT GP 42's and Williams brothers "vintage" wheels. What fun! Those TT's really haul that thing around and the 3 3/4" wheels mean that I still have the original 10X6 APC props after a whole season of flying off grass!
The "vintage" wheels are thin, which means less rolling resistance on grass, and that keeps the gear from getting bent back.
Too bad they stopped making that plane!
The first one I had no right to fly, too inexperienced. Flameout during initial climb, tried to hold altitude, 18 seconds of twin experience and...... boom.
The second I flew for three years and sold at auction.
The third I fitted with TT GP 42's and Williams brothers "vintage" wheels. What fun! Those TT's really haul that thing around and the 3 3/4" wheels mean that I still have the original 10X6 APC props after a whole season of flying off grass!
The "vintage" wheels are thin, which means less rolling resistance on grass, and that keeps the gear from getting bent back.
Too bad they stopped making that plane!
11-28-2002, 09:34 AM
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JoeMamma.......
Dear Joe;
Great comments on flying the Twin Star. So, so right on using that right thumb on the rudder with engine out...and as you said, grab all the rudder you can get.
I have had some engine out flying, and once up high, and over the strip, I played with one out and three turning. I held a good 3/4 Rudder, and turn into the live only engine only if you can. I do need to make my Rudder a bit larger, but still flies great. I installed two servo's on my alerons, and have flaperons. With full flaps, she gets air born quicker, and respons to elevator better. On landing it seems that my birds elevater is a bit sluggish for a bit, then kicks in good. Flaps deployed will even out the response in the elevator, and slow it down a little more in landing.
Almost at lift off on a touch and go, I lost my #1 engine, and did not catch it until I started to rotate. With three turning, it was a lead slug on elevator, and gobs of rudder too. It still swerved a good 30 Deg., but got her airborne (didn't think to chop the power)...nervous thumbs I guess, but I hung on and even made it around the field and back in one piece...Ug. Now I know what she handles like with an engine out...on the runway. We have a short field, an ex WW-II fighter reventment area, for a sight and a challenge to fly here. But it's all we have and do the best I can.
I'm in love with these multi engine birds...
Soft landings always,
Bob of Maui
Great comments on flying the Twin Star. So, so right on using that right thumb on the rudder with engine out...and as you said, grab all the rudder you can get.
I have had some engine out flying, and once up high, and over the strip, I played with one out and three turning. I held a good 3/4 Rudder, and turn into the live only engine only if you can. I do need to make my Rudder a bit larger, but still flies great. I installed two servo's on my alerons, and have flaperons. With full flaps, she gets air born quicker, and respons to elevator better. On landing it seems that my birds elevater is a bit sluggish for a bit, then kicks in good. Flaps deployed will even out the response in the elevator, and slow it down a little more in landing.
Almost at lift off on a touch and go, I lost my #1 engine, and did not catch it until I started to rotate. With three turning, it was a lead slug on elevator, and gobs of rudder too. It still swerved a good 30 Deg., but got her airborne (didn't think to chop the power)...nervous thumbs I guess, but I hung on and even made it around the field and back in one piece...Ug. Now I know what she handles like with an engine out...on the runway. We have a short field, an ex WW-II fighter reventment area, for a sight and a challenge to fly here. But it's all we have and do the best I can.
I'm in love with these multi engine birds...
Soft landings always,
Bob of Maui
12-01-2002, 04:24 PM
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twin mixing
To JoeMamma
Reference the mixing to the rudder. If I could add to this idea my two cents.
One of the books on programing the Futaba 8 channel references this type of mix- mixing the engines to the rudder, at slow speed.
DO NOT DO THIS!!! It is dangerous!!
Two problems, One, during taxi using the rudder to turn will cause one engine to accelerate, turning the plane, now you turn the rudder to compensate the the same thing happens only now you are going faster, and the problem gets worse.
Two, the landing approach with a low speed mix is scary with the engines surging as you use the rudder to land.....Get the idea?
Been there, done that, don't do that!!
Now, for the solution,,, Mix the rudder into both engines, but only allow it to work at above 50% throttle setting. Now you really have something to talk about. Powered hammer head turns, powered flat spins that recover instantly via a simple reverse of the rudder, and so engine thrust, knife edge flight....ect.....Get this idea and it works. Now you also have one of your rotary dials that controls one engine for easy matching of idle or high speed characteristics.
Want more, If one engine is slightly stronger than the other or comes up differently, use the exponential to match the throttle curves.
My humble two cents. More at rcwarbirds.com in twins forum. Check the hovering post!
Twinman
Reference the mixing to the rudder. If I could add to this idea my two cents.
One of the books on programing the Futaba 8 channel references this type of mix- mixing the engines to the rudder, at slow speed.
DO NOT DO THIS!!! It is dangerous!!
Two problems, One, during taxi using the rudder to turn will cause one engine to accelerate, turning the plane, now you turn the rudder to compensate the the same thing happens only now you are going faster, and the problem gets worse.
Two, the landing approach with a low speed mix is scary with the engines surging as you use the rudder to land.....Get the idea?
Been there, done that, don't do that!!
Now, for the solution,,, Mix the rudder into both engines, but only allow it to work at above 50% throttle setting. Now you really have something to talk about. Powered hammer head turns, powered flat spins that recover instantly via a simple reverse of the rudder, and so engine thrust, knife edge flight....ect.....Get this idea and it works. Now you also have one of your rotary dials that controls one engine for easy matching of idle or high speed characteristics.
Want more, If one engine is slightly stronger than the other or comes up differently, use the exponential to match the throttle curves.
My humble two cents. More at rcwarbirds.com in twins forum. Check the hovering post!
Twinman
12-02-2002, 12:25 AM
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Twins
Hello Again TwinMan,
I totally agree with you about using throttle/rudder mixing on a twin used during takeoffs and landings.
I only use this particular mix when slow-taxiing from the flight line to the runway, and after a landing from the runway back to the pits. It looks and sounds so cool.
After I've lined up for a takeoff, I inhibit the Futaba's PMIX-4 feature (more buttons to remember before takeoff !!).
I did go through at least 1 entire flight flying my TwinStar with the rudder/throttle mix turned ON . It was kinda' scary because of the high-percentage curve and extreme expo I had programmed in. Again, this mix program was set up for low-speed taxiing only. At first I couldn't figure out what was going wrong with the flight, then I remembered (why do you always remember the stupid things after the plane is in the air ??). Oops, forgot another switch !!
I purchased Don Edberg's "Getting The Most Out Of Futaba's 8-Channel RC Systems" earlier in the year. It's a wealth of information as I'm still in the experimentation stage with advance mixer's. The Futaba 8U Instruction Manual falls a little short describing its available program mixing.
Our flyin' season is just about dried up 'til springtime (kinda cold and snowy north of Detroit..........right now 24 degrees with 25mph wind gusts.........yuck). I'll have to wait until then to let you know what develops.
As for now, any experimentation with PMIX'ers will have to done at my dining room table with cup of coffee, a radio, a battery, a receiver and a pile of servos.
See Ya
PS: I'm STILL waiting for my A-26 Invader. Something about a shipping strike on the west coast.
According to Debbie at Morris; "each batch of kits keeps getting better".........and........"we're listening to you modelers about quality problems".
I hope so !!!
I totally agree with you about using throttle/rudder mixing on a twin used during takeoffs and landings.
I only use this particular mix when slow-taxiing from the flight line to the runway, and after a landing from the runway back to the pits. It looks and sounds so cool.
After I've lined up for a takeoff, I inhibit the Futaba's PMIX-4 feature (more buttons to remember before takeoff !!).
I did go through at least 1 entire flight flying my TwinStar with the rudder/throttle mix turned ON . It was kinda' scary because of the high-percentage curve and extreme expo I had programmed in. Again, this mix program was set up for low-speed taxiing only. At first I couldn't figure out what was going wrong with the flight, then I remembered (why do you always remember the stupid things after the plane is in the air ??). Oops, forgot another switch !!
I purchased Don Edberg's "Getting The Most Out Of Futaba's 8-Channel RC Systems" earlier in the year. It's a wealth of information as I'm still in the experimentation stage with advance mixer's. The Futaba 8U Instruction Manual falls a little short describing its available program mixing.
Our flyin' season is just about dried up 'til springtime (kinda cold and snowy north of Detroit..........right now 24 degrees with 25mph wind gusts.........yuck). I'll have to wait until then to let you know what develops.
As for now, any experimentation with PMIX'ers will have to done at my dining room table with cup of coffee, a radio, a battery, a receiver and a pile of servos.
See Ya
PS: I'm STILL waiting for my A-26 Invader. Something about a shipping strike on the west coast.
According to Debbie at Morris; "each batch of kits keeps getting better".........and........"we're listening to you modelers about quality problems".
I hope so !!!
12-02-2002, 02:50 PM
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Twin*
Thanks for the info! It sounds like I've got alot of fun ahead of me, especially on take offs.
Both of my .26's are NIB so I'll definately break them in on the test stand. Unfortunately, my radio is the Eclipse 7 and I haven't found a way to trim one engine separately. There are several PMIX functions that I haven't worked with yet, so maybe I can find a way to tie it in. Too many switches to flip makes me nervous. Anyone have suggestions for the Eclipse?
On the subject of switches, I've been using a landing mix my last couple of times out with my Limbo Dancer. It's set up to raise both flapperons and compensate with little up elevator. This works pretty good but I would describe this as spoilerons. How different will it be if the surfaces deflect downward? I've been warned about possible tipstalls. I'm planning to put dual wing servos in the Twinstar for the advantages mentioned in earlier posts.
Both of my .26's are NIB so I'll definately break them in on the test stand. Unfortunately, my radio is the Eclipse 7 and I haven't found a way to trim one engine separately. There are several PMIX functions that I haven't worked with yet, so maybe I can find a way to tie it in. Too many switches to flip makes me nervous. Anyone have suggestions for the Eclipse?
On the subject of switches, I've been using a landing mix my last couple of times out with my Limbo Dancer. It's set up to raise both flapperons and compensate with little up elevator. This works pretty good but I would describe this as spoilerons. How different will it be if the surfaces deflect downward? I've been warned about possible tipstalls. I'm planning to put dual wing servos in the Twinstar for the advantages mentioned in earlier posts.
12-03-2002, 12:45 AM
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twin 4-strokes
Glad to hear that I'm not the only krazy with the idea of small OS fourstrokes on a twinstar!
I just bought my first OS-30 and am just about to buy the 2nd.
Also, I think I'll buy the Airtronics RD-8000 as soon as they start shipping.
Has anyone tried the Saito-30's instead of the OS's? I'm still second guessing myself there, but I haven't seen any side-by-side comparisons yet. Same fuel/prop/airport/day and mount to eliminate as many variables as possible type of test.
perhaps a saito on one side and an os on the other with a "perfectly" trimmed bird. "Which way does it pull?"
Can't wait to hear my twinstar with a pair of 4-strokes.
I just bought my first OS-30 and am just about to buy the 2nd.
Also, I think I'll buy the Airtronics RD-8000 as soon as they start shipping.
Has anyone tried the Saito-30's instead of the OS's? I'm still second guessing myself there, but I haven't seen any side-by-side comparisons yet. Same fuel/prop/airport/day and mount to eliminate as many variables as possible type of test.
perhaps a saito on one side and an os on the other with a "perfectly" trimmed bird. "Which way does it pull?"
Can't wait to hear my twinstar with a pair of 4-strokes.
