shawnw

I recently aquired a set a palmer f7f tigercat plans from a friend of mine. The only problem is he didn't have the construction manual that comes with them. Does anyone have a copy of the manual. Also if anyone has and experience or insights on building and flying this plane I would love to hear them. By the way this is the 82" span model

William Robison

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Shaw:

If this F7F is your first twin build it, get it all ready to fly, and leave it parked. Don't even entertain the slightest thought of flying it. Until you have a LOT of stick time flying a twin.

My first twin was a scratched semi-scale Tigercat. It is seven years old, has never even had a hard landing. With both engines running it flies nicely, but I wont even attempt to fly it with one dead.

Look at the top view of the F7F. The engines are almost half way out on the wings, and the tail moment isn't very long. Both lead to very nasty characteristics with one engine out.

I'm not trying to keep you from building a Tigercat, I personally like the looks very much, and I have another F7F kit on the way to me at this moment. The new F7F will be twin #6. But the Tigercat is probably the absolute worst possible choice for a first twin. Did I make my thoughts clear?

www.ne-aero.com has a kit they call the Twin-Air 45, and I would not hesitate to recommend it as anyone's first twin. My #4 twin is a T-A 45. It will make a complete flight, start to finish, with only one engine running. Can't get any better than that.

Repeating myself: Build the Tigercat, it's a beautiful airplane. Then hang it up and look at it.

Fly the Tigercat, first flight - a spin that's flat.
. pick the T-A 45, the plane'll stay alive.

Bill.

shawnw

William

You say not to build the tigercat as a first twin and in the same breath you say that it was you first twin and hasn't even had a hard landing. Not that I am considering it as a first twin anyway but how does it fly with both engines running. By the way you said you scratch build it was it your own design. If not what plan did you use.

William Robison

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Shaw:

Having learned from the experience with the Tigercat as a first twin, I discourage anyone else's repeating the same lessons.

With both running it does not fly badly, but it's touchy enough that your sinuses stay clear while it's up.

Changes I made were decreasing the taper of the wing, the engines are not quite scale distance out on the wings, and the vertical fin/rudder is about 150% of scale size. These changes were all intended to make the plane survive an engine out. It is small, 36" span, if it were truly scale I think a parachute would be necessary to land safely with an engine out.

And yes, my little F7F is scratch built. That means it is not built from someone else's plan. Building from plans and kit building are different only in that with a kit you get all the bits in one box instead of buying them one piece at a time.

Plans or the bits in one batch,
. Man, that just aint scratch.

Bill.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

They have a 103 inch version of that same plan, but you could still loose half the formers and ribs, and come out with a nice , structurally strong plane. If you can find counter rotating motors, it would be a rail on takeoff and engine outs will not be as troublesome.

scale dail

My Feedback: (8)

i have a tigercat too. mine is scratch built 62'' span 12 pounds, 2 o.s.46s'.and its right on the money scale,have several trophies to prove it. its retired from contest work now,so i can sport fly it.mine is heavy and it is one of my toughest warbirds to fly but after 9 years i am getting used to it. now i can take more chances with it.i always get the engines perfectly synchronized,cause it sounds better that way.if they are not it will pull to one side,especially going vertical like in a loop.i tune them by sound,you can tell when twins are synchronized. i have intentionally filled one tank only 1/4 full to fly on only one engine. its better to have one quit when your ready for it. i have a royal p-38 and a stafford b-24 too.the tigercat flys great on one engine---if you keep your speed up.------ thats very important! the slower you go the more rudder you have to give it.go too slow and you will run out of rudder,and the plane will peel off toward the dead engine.i have done rolls and low passes and even loops on one engine with my f7f. the hardest thing is to land with one or two engines running. my field is only about 450 ' long so i have the 4 piece flaps all the way down. but i can not hold much of a nose up attitude on approach so its real easy to land on the nosewheel first--bad to do. most twins i have seen are really fast,mine is to. in contests i would take off at about half power and once at altitude cut back even more, but for maneuvers i would power up.anyway i am rambling on so i will say the tigercat should fly like your typical pattern-ship as long as you are moving fast.a tigercat at 82'' should be real nice.------corey.

AmishWarlord

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I thought the P-38 was the worst twin to start out on. :P

William Robison

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AmishWarlord:

The B-25 has a worse reputation than the P-38.

Look at the 3-view of any twin. On the top view draw a line from each prop hub to the point of the tail. The more acute the angle, generally speaking, the easier the plane will be to fly with an engine out.

As I said, it's a general rule, and doesn't explain the B-25's reputation. But it is a starting place.

Again, general rule, the closer the engines to the centerline, and the longer tha tail moment, the better the overall flight characteristics.

This latter generality says the best flying model twin (That I have played with) is the Twin-Air 45, closely followed by the Duellist.

The T-A is the easier build, in appearance compare the T-A to the Piper Apache, the Duellist to the Beech Baron.

But it's not my money. I wont tell you where to spend it, but I will suggest.

Many twins on the market.
. Scared to fly? You can always park it.

Bill.

Check6

My Feedback: (427)

Hi Shawn,
Do yourself a favor and hang up the Palmer plans and look at them. Building from them is a nightmare. My buddy and I built a pair of the 82 in. Tigercats from his plans but we changed things extensively. We built the fuse , fin and rudder to his plans and then cut foam cores for the wing and stab. The wing is then bolted as one piece to the the fuse. Makes construction very simple. To Palmers credit the plane does look and fly very nice. My plane weighed 21 lbs. had flaps retracts, full cockpit, glassed and painted with automotive enamel. Here is where I have to disagree with Bill about the flying qualities of the Tigercat. My first 5 flights on the Palmer Tigercat ended up being single engine. I had a pair of OS 91 FX's 2 strokes in it and I ended up loosing an engine on these flights. Both sides, successfully able to fly it back on one engine, rudder is very large and effective. I finally replaced both 2 stokes with two OS 91. 4 strokes , didn't change a thing as far as fuel tanks lines, nothing. Never had an engine out problem again. Loved those 4 strokes. Any way about 20 years ago I built the old RC Kits Tigercat, 72 in. with 2 .60's. Flew this every weekend for 3 years, as matter of fact my buddy bought and is still flying it. Awesome flyer, very fast and groovy. Not a problem with engine out flight, throttle back, feed in rudder, and gradually add power.
I will try to post some pics of my plane. Sometimes can't put them on, too large. Hope this helps, any other questions, be glad to try to answer them.
Thanks,
Fred Menna Check6

I just tried to post the pics and couldn't. If any one can make them smaller I will email them to you, for you to post.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Fred:
Can't argue with your experience. But thanks to greater inertia a 72" or 84" is going to give you more time to chop the throttle than a 36" airplane. And thanks to Mr. Reynolds' magic number it's going to fly better also.

But I'll hold to my original statement: many twins are much easier to fly.

Start with a "Twin-Air Forty-five,",
. Lose an engine, stay alive.

Bill.

warbirdz1

Shawn......I like Bills angle on this twin engine topic.......Its much "easier" to start out with say a lightly wing-loaded twin than a warbird for sure........ Cermark Islander or a Twinstar or possibly a Duelist........And get lots of flights on it as well......A warbird twin is a whole new Dimension in flying......what becomes the biggest issues are wing-loading and engine performance......I have a Ziroli B-25 and its wing loading is quite high just as most all the bigger warbirds....and counter rotating props and gyro's, etc is no guarantee it will come back on one engine.......I have seen 5 or 6 B-25's crash because of an engine failure with some very good pilots on the Transmitter........amongst a number of other warbird twins....most of the time on a warbird twin @ a high power setting when an engine fails the first thing that happens( in a flash) its upside down........I have seen it first hand.......Because of the high wing loadings whatever side loses an engine also loses lift..therefore its upside down.....I've found that running a fuel tamk half full and knowing the engine will quit is still easier than the unexpected.....If somehow the twin doesn't go inverted then one has a chance to fly back on one engine......my friends Ziroli P-38 flys very good on one engine ...have seen him do 3 or 4 passes on one before landing...but thats not the norm for sure.....TigerCat is a good flying plane but also requires some good pilot skills as well......Don Smith has a 102" version and it handles nicely....but as Bill stated build your Dream Machine but keep it parked until your proficient ...nothing worse than wrecking a new project.........Good Luck.....Bill.....

William Robison

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Shaw:

Here's a nice flying twin, pretty much like the Twin-Air 45, but this one is a MAJOR bash (almost a scratch) of a Hobbico "Hobbistar 60."

Bigger twin's a lot more fun,
. Little twin - you're on the run.

Bill.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

And here's the extreme, almost. Two 0.061 engines, 38" span. Not an easy plane to fly. I call it the "Tiggerkitty" F7F.

Fly this little twin,
. Balance a needle on a pin.

Bill.

PS: The yellow body and aluminum muffler in the top right is a Concept 30 helicopter - size comparison. wr.