Round1

I fly R/C, but I prefer to fly C/l, it's more challenging and requires a lot more than just a lot of money.

Hossfly

Whatever works works and it sounds that you have found that 'whatever'.

After reding over all the posts I need to interject a point for the new CLers that start in this world so strictly engrossed in RC as the only model aviation interest. OK so I went RC back in '71 from some 20+years of CL and FF, but CL stunt is still in the heart.
When I was a fairly competitive stunt flier back in 1960 - '72, I used the Fox .35, Johnson Stunt Supreme .35, the Super Tigre .40 (George Aldrich specials) and stock Fox .40 Stunt engines, which I believe, if properly broken in, and run on 5% nitro, minimum of 25% castor, and a RC Idle Bar glow plug, was the best of them all.
Now my points:
1. 25%+ castor works wonders for the good ol' 2-4-2 engine run.
2. Replace any stock NV Assembly with either an OS or Enya 35-40 assembly.
3. Place the single hole facing REARWARD just out of sight. (This is the lowest point of static pressure in the venturi of
accelerated air flow.) IT WORKS. The biggest wonder was that only a couple others that I ever met knew about and used this
fact. I learned of it when a teenager from an old America's Hobby Center Hints booklet.

My one and only chance to make the NATs top 10 was the '71 Glenview NATs however I swayed to the Testors rep and tried the yet-to-be-released McCoy 40 grey-case. Fifth run on engine and 1st official was a barn-burner until after diving down from the 4-leaf, when she went to rat-race lean and ran for 11 minutes. Of course the 2nd official was far too rich and there went my last chance for glory. Don't it jus' make yer' eyes water???? You did notice that the OS NV, the Fox Superfuel, and the Fox Idle-Bar did NOT help me then!!! That K&B ringed piston/sleeve in the McCoy case just did not have the porting for a Stunt engine. I suppose there are some other requirements too. Ha!

BTW I still do 1/2A CL (all self designed) with grandkids in back yard where I can fly 52' lines. 'WE' also fly an original Fox .19 trainer, built in '85. and a Still Stuka, Fox 35 (built in '95) every so often there except the Stuka ain't so much fun on the short lines.[X(]

Old Sourdough

Dennis,

Don't you FoMoCo execs make enough of the big bucks to be able to retire by 40? You ought to be pushing that by now.

Retire. That way you can fly all you want.

dadamisin

...except I haven't been with FoMoCo for 20 yrs! Got downsized (twice) in the not too distant past, discovered I had become rather fond of pay checks. Retirement still 12-15 yers off. Need to win the lottery, might even break down and buy a lottery TICKET.

Too old for rock & roll, too young to die!

da

PS. how the heck you ever know I was with FoMoCo????

Old Sourdough

I have followed your career through the assorted magazines, and I have gotten to know your Dad a bit through the use of the Internet. Besides, I liked those V-Tailed stunters you and your family flew. In addition, you won the Walker Cup as a Senior in 1972. I remember the plane and the fact that you and your plane outscored my all-time favorite NAT's winning (1973) stunt design. I liked the Sea Fury, too!

I file bits of information away for future use. I could be BIG BROTHER!

dadamisin

Big Bro'

Little secret - the Sea Fury was MY absolute favorite stunt model of all time too! Al Rabe was also the hardest working most dedicated and knowledgale designer I ever met. you MIGHT outscore him sometime, but you would NEVER out work him. After that Walker fly-off Al offered me a chance to fly it - I was intimidated and decliined- something I still regret!!!

A couple years back I built a TF R/C Sea Fury for an RCM kit review. Every time I look at it I still see Al's Sea Fury.

da

rmh

Post from 20watt bulb re " "flyRC"-- obviously a budding commodian.
I larnt control line flying using a Brave and a O&R backport 23- (1949)so--
I would not accept RC till it became a porportional setup.
No "feel" to it
A good RC setup nd a good plane - can be felt as it flies - really.
Locally we do have some CL stunt flyers who are good at it
Gordon Delaney and a few others.
I fly RC big/little gas and tiny foam aerobats .
Only stunt contest was in Phoenix -in 69 I think - using a foam wing -Monokote covered Merco 35 powered home brew.
Totally out of the acceptable norm then.
It didn't even have flaps!
It did turn very well tho- I quit stunt because the "look" of the plane meant more than it's flying character.
But I sure liked the feel of the model doing exactly what I wanted.
That was the real appeal to me.
back to sleep now ----

Old Sourdough

==============================================
Dennis,

If you felt that way and were not flying in the Walker Cup Flyoff in 1973, you were probably just as happy as I was when Al Rabe won the Cup with the Sea Fury.

Al's articles in AAM were great, too. He's building stunters again, but, while he may be flying, he has yet to enter a contest since his return some four or five years ago. He still experiments a lot and has shared a lot of his findings as well as pictures of his projects at:

[link=http://*******.com/a0l0]CL Stunt[/link]

Some examples of his writing, techniques and pictures are:

[link=http://*******.com/a0kh]Cockpit Detail[/link]

[link=http://*******.com/a0kj]Home made mufflers[/link]

[link=http://*******.com/a0kz]Making Canopies[/link]

He has posted quite a few more articles with pictures at the same site. Maybe, as a fellow craftsman, you'll find them interesting.

dadamisin

Actually I wasn't real happy in '73, I'm pretty sure that year he beat my little brother!

Still, Al's Sea Fury remains the single MOST impressive aircraft I have seen in 40+ years of modeling. Tha includes numerous RC scale models, the 150 lb+ B-29, etc...

da

Old Sourdough

Oops!! Sorry about that, but I am glad that beautiful, well-designed machine did win one!

rw Guinn

Hoss:
When you say replace any NV ass't with the OS? I always like the Fox .35 Stunt with stock NV. You just have to remember "Fore and Aft" on the holes. Does the OS improve the Fox 35 Stunt enough to warrant the change?
I will try it in my 2 Fox .36 (yes, .36) stunts, as I have had a devil of a time making them run right.

Roger

Hossfly

Yes Roger, if you are flying serious competition stunt, I think you will find the OS / Enya NV will be of significant value to your flying. The engine runs are more reliable, and easier to needle for consistency for both the Fox 35 and 40. Remember that I used Fox Superfuel for all my stunt flying which had 29% castor. I used the standard Fox NV for years but when I got really serious, I switched. With the single hole NV, facing that hole straight back is the BIG secret. Try it, I bet you will like it.
When I went through that mid-life, mid-40 crisis, in the split up, she got the gold and I got the shaft. She got everything in the house including all my albums. I have almost NO pictures of my many stunt jobs, especially my MIG design, with an actual swept wing but hidden by the large tapered flaps. I built 3 before RC. The first was excellent, the larger 2nd was superior in all respects and brought home a lot of loot. The 3rd, redesigned to be the ultimate was ONE BIG DOG FECES! [:'(]
Here are several pictures of one of my Noblers, Fox .35 early on, and some of my trophies in the basement of which 125 wound up in a dumpster. In addition I'm launching a Starduster 900 on a Fly-off flight to win the 1967 AF World Wide C FF event. That model also won the Chicago Aeronuts AAA Mid Western Championships, 1968, Bong Field, C FF. Yes at one time I was serious in CL Stunt, and FF for OHLG, Class C and some 1/2A.
BTW those 36s aren't really ported for the .35 type stunt run but a small restrictor in the venturi will help. I run one in a STill Stuka, but it ain't very much to my liking, however the grandkids do OK with it.

cltom

I'm not surprised. Personally, I was never impressed with McCoy Redheads. When Testor's bought them, and then turned out the "new" gray case Testor's-McCoy, they were an improvement - but not for stunt. Grinding out a bigger opening in the crankshaft port and smoothing out the internals in the case turned them into the hottest plain-bearing [slow] combat engine on the market. They were faster than anything - including plain bearing 36X's and Supertigers.

Old Sourdough

Dennis,

For a current project of Al's that is almost complete, see:

[link=http://*******.com/a5yj]Easy Two Sugar[/link]

He's at it again. I just wish he were building and documenting another Sea Fury!

dadamisin

Jeez, I just saw your reference to Al's Mustang. I know al loves Mustangs and his were (are) the best examples out there.

But I will argue this point - a Mustang cannot hold a candle to the Sea Fury when it comes to stage pressence. A Mustange looks refined, almost too natural. A Sea Fury looks like 10 lbs of muscle in a 5 lb skin - it It it absolutely bristles with power and grace.

For that matter I guess I love all the Hawker designs starting with the elegant Fury bipe, the muscular Typhoon, Tempest, Fury and Sea Fury. They all have a menacing dominant pressence that overshadows anything around them

just my opinion... & that ought to start a battle!

Dennis Adamisin
Fort Wayne IN

cltom

Agreed - although the 4360-equipped F2G has a soft spot in my heart.

Old Sourdough

Dennis,

I, too, much prefer the Sea Fury to any of Al's Mustangs or Bearcats. I think that we see way too many of the former and the latter just doesn't do it for me aesthetically. His new project, it seems, is the Critical Mass version of the Sea Fury.

2BFlying

Hey fellas
Give me some help here. I'm looking to buy a stunter. By the way, I fly R/C and have a hanger full of stuff. How about the SIG TWISTER or the BANSHEE? About the only place I have been able to see kits is from VIRGINIA HOBBYSPORT. I just want something that is cheap and I can have fun with. I grew up flying the profile stuff like RINGMASTERS and FLITE STREAKS and had a blast. So I am open for suggestions. Here are some of the things I am looking for:
48 inch span or more
Symmetrical non-tapered wing
Profile fuselage
.40 engine up
Flaps don't matter
Am I being too picky? The price for these aircraft is really good, IMHO. Especially when some of the R/C planes I have were around 250 dollars. But I can step out the garage door anytime I want and fly a C/L. Y'all wanted more posts and I'll do what I can. I got lots of questions.
RWCherry
Mt Sterling KY

fox4evr

Hi RW, The Banshee is one of my favorites for sport flying. I run Fox 35s on all of them. I have a Twister also but not quite ready for the air yet. If you build the Banshee, move the wing forward 1 1/2 inches. This will help the handling bunches. You could shorten the nose, but the wing is really the way to go. You might check with Lonestar Balsa for some good prices on these two kits. I buy lots of balsa, bulk line, and other supplies from them. They seem to be fair priced and quick.
Lee TGD

Jim Thomerson

I have built a couple of Twisters. They fly very well. Mine had Fox 35's. A Tower 40 would be excellent. One change, move the CG forward to 1 5/8 in back of the leading edge of the wing. The CG shown on the plan is way to far back in my opinion. You'll need to move the landing gear and leadouts forward a like amount.

Jim

2BFlying

Thanks for the replies.
Now I have another question. You mentioned moving the leadouts forward. Should the leadouts on any C/L be on the CG? I never thought about this back in the 60's, just trying to build them and fly. But it makes sense to me now because you want the plane to rotate around the leadouts. Am I on the right track? I guess most of the time wisdom comes with age, or after enough mistakes you finally figure it out.
RWCherry
Sharpsburg KY

Jim Thomerson

One of the absolute great inventions in stunt is adjustable leadouts. Basically you want the leadouts close together and in the right place. If you have them far apart, like on most older plans, picture what happens when the airplane is basically suspended on one or the other leadout at full control, It yaws in or out from its level flight yaw. You can look around in Stuka Stunt Works Control Line Forum and find threads on leadout position, etc. There is a formula you can use. I basically hang the airplane from the leadouts and move them so I can see that it is hanging nose down just a little. Now, when I fly the airplane, I want to be looking straight down the wing. So I move the leadouts, no more than 1/8 at a time, until I achieve that. Then I assess how the airplane feels in overhead 8's. If the leadouts are too far back, it will get loose at the top of the circle; counterintuitive, but true.

You also want an adjustable tip weight box. I use steel BB's and start out with 30. I add or take out 5 at a time until I think it is right. Actually on my two Twisters, the first one, I glued a little plastic pill bottle with a snap-on top sticking out the tip rib. On the other. I drilled holes in pennies and bolted them on with a 4/40 bolt and blind nut. These days I would build a weight box.

On a Trixter, with liteply wing tip ribs, adjustable leadouts are easy to fabricate. Cut an accurate 1/8 wide slot from a little in front of the CG to at least a couple of inches back. Make your slider out of a piece of good 1/8 ply. Drill a hole and install a 4-40 blind nut. On either side, as close as you can manage. Drill holes lined up with the blind nut, for the leadout guide tubes. You can use grommets, pieces of 1/8 copper tubing, or 1/2 inch long pieces of the yellow plastic tubing which Perfect gives you for leadout guides in their leadout packages. Now cut the "slider" out of your piece of plywood. It should be @ 3/8 high, and maybe 1 in long with the three holes for blind nut and leadout guides in a row down the long axis.

The slider goes inside the tip rib with the tubes sticking out through the 1/8 slot. Take a 4/40 bolt with a flat washer and bolt the slider in from the outside. After you get the bolt through the blind nut, mess up the end threads so it can't shake loose and let the slider slide down inside the wing.

Obviously you are going to have to cut holes in the ribs so the lines won't hang up no matter where the slider is.

One could argue that on a early learning airplane, just do it like the plan as simple as possible. You can't do that much with it at your skill level, so what if it flies crappy? Well, that makes it just that much harder for you. On the other hand, If you make everything adjustable, and can get some knowledgeable help. your airplane can be made to fly really well, and will be much easier for you to fly. Also, if you have things adjustable, you can make little changes, not enough to make you crash, of course, and teach yourself a lot about how things work and what makes what happen.

Sorry to be so long winded; years of lecturing for 50 minutes, I suppose. Anyway, hope it helps.

Jim

2BFlying

Wow, Jim
That's a really good lecture. I think I went thru it 4 times. Great piece of information. How far apart should the two cables be from each other? Less than 2 inches? If I remember correctly, the older planes did have the leadouts spaced pretty far apart. Does this affect the bellcrank in any way by adjusting the leadouts fore or aft? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the YAW axis pivot point is around the bellcrank, as that is the point of contact or control. Great information and thanks. I'll be thinking about this all night, BTW, I am at work so this gives me something to do until something breaks.
RWCherry

gcb

RW,

Bellcrank position does not matter. Many use about one inch between lines.
Some prefer the front line to be the up line and use a "reverse bellcrank" installation also.

George

Dsaydak

Horace, my eagle eye just spotted something very unusual about your Nobler - it has a nose wheel. Now there's some documentation that could be useful in verifying eligibility for clasic stunt events. Could you confirm what year you built that aircraft and if you still happen to have the model, provide the L.G details/dimensions?

Dennis