patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Artisan
[What tickles me is what I see coming over the horizon. The electric boys are going to kill the pattern game as it is presently being played. You nitro heads (generically speaking - nothing personal intended) will have to find some other venue in which to play your nitro games.

SO basically your saying that electric is going to kill off the nitro motor in pattern... Interesting. And your happy with that WHY?
If you can't afford a nitro motor how will you afford the electric? I think a few will change to the electric though. I'm all for change. Seems like you are to. Why weren't you for the change back when it was to nitro? I am obviously into pattern and all I'm worried about is not how much power I have. Pattern power plants are about flying a a constant speed. The engine needs enough power to fly a constant upline and also enough braking out of the prop to slow it down to the same constant speed on a downline. There are many engines out there today that are two strokes that are much cheaper to run and cheaper to buy.
Some of the ARF's that are pattern are very cheap to get into. And they compete very well. I think the cost of pattern has dropped in the past few years.
Back in the days of the lead sleds try flying them at a constant speed. Pattern did go to a new level. Once again, change. It made it to where the pilot with the best control of his plane, wins. Some embrace change some don't. Either way it's fine with me. Just posting my OPINION of yours. It's only my 2 cents.

downunder-RCU

If you want to know how far engine development goes then check out a CL FAI speed engine. No nitro allowed but they put out power from a .15 that's just amazing. Try something like 2.7 HP!! Of course, they're totally useless for anything else. But they have things like swirl slots in the squish band for turbulence, centrifugally fed oil holes from the crankshaft to the crankpin...and it takes about 1HP just to drag the two lines around at over 200mph.

Sport_Pilot

That's my point, obviously the research went on regardless of Artisan's hate of nitro. And much the same research would have gone on even if FAI had allowed nitro. Just that much faster.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

Nitromethane is a crutch to aid poor tuning habits and sloppy engineering.

The FAI CL speed engine research is not applicable to throttled engines, by and large, so no, the research was not done anyway.

Nitro makes my knuckles swell up and hurt. I first encountered this amazing feat as a late teenager. I've hated the stuff ever since.

One of the ways to eliminate competition from poorer folks is to raise the ante so high that they cannot afford to play.

I knew a couple of engineers that pooh-poohed my lament when they were still working. When they retired and suffered a loss of income, they too had to drop out of the pattern circuit.

Who can buy the most gizmos with their income does not prove who can fly the best. The same contests could be accomplished using .15 engine size powered models on FAI fuel, but then some of the rich folks would have to compete straight up with some really good (not me), but poorer, pilots. You see, buying stuff does not make one a competitor (one of the boys), winning does.

Nitromethane is unnecessary, expensive and toxic. If you need more power, use a larger engine burning alcohol and oil. It's cheaper in the long run and it opens up the contests to many that could not otherwise afford it.

As I said, this is just my opinion. You are entitled to yours.

jessiej

[Nitro makes my knuckles swell up and hurt. I first encountered this amazing feat as a late teenager. I've hated the stuff ever since. ]


[I knew a couple of engineers that pooh-poohed my lament when they were still working. When they retired and suffered a loss of income, they too had to drop out of the pattern circuit]

A couple of points here. One, I expect that your emotional view of nitro methane comes from the physical reaction you experienced as a youth. Few people have such a reaction., and don't forget that methanol is toxic as well. (As well as gasoline, which I expect you use from time to time.

Two: Considering the cost of equipment required to fly pattern fuel is a small matter, and the diference in cost between FAI and nitro small enough that Ifail to see how the cost of fuel is the sole reason anyone would drop out of pattern.

I for one am thankful that in this country we are free to use whatever fuel we wish.

Sport_Pilot

Actually you can consume a lot more nitro than methanol! Even a fairly small dose of methanol can blind you. I suspect Artisan is allergic to nitro. Though I have never heard of this, I suppose its possible.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

If electrics are going to catch on so much because of how non toxic they are, why don't you go buy an electric car. Oh wait. Electric pattern planes have to be charged for how long, on your car which is toxic?????????????????? Let's think about how toxic that is!!!! Let's think about the power plants that put out the elctric to charge these planes also. Many are also toxic. Sounds to me like there are haters out there in the world that can't afford things, so they hate on those who can. I'm not saying that I'm rich and can afford every new gadget, because I can't. But I don't dislike people who can afford it. I understand that pattern pilots, such as myself can benefit from alot of things that cost quite hefty amounts, but that's part of the game. Example; Nascar, how many winners do you see in Nascar that don't have the latest things. The latest research. Research is constantly going to happen in every sport and, yes, things will cost alot when they come up with something better, always. That's the way things have always been. What's going to change that? Who know's? I don't think any amount of talk will. I AM A PATTERN PILOT WHO FLY'S WITH NITRO!!!!!!!!!!! I welcome electrics for those who can afford to change to it!!!!!! I can't at this point. But I will always love the sound of a nice running YS or OS anytime over an electric. I also love silent flight as I fly slope. I don't see why this is such an issue, if you do or don't like it, that's fine. No problem. I don't think people should judge those who do like it. But then again these are my opinions and I'm sure there are many that will have their opinions of mine. To all, I will watch you fly whatever it is you fly, and won't judge you. If you need help, I will help you. Advice; I'm there for you. That's what this whole hobby should be about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

If it's not powered by a petro-chemical engine, I'll have no part of it.

LUDS96

My Feedback: (23)

Here is what Powermaster has to say about Nitro
http://www.powermasterfuels.com/facts3.htm

Woody 51

You mean that MVVS and Super Tigre's are junk?

For sport use, give me either of those anyday over any of the high nitro gobbling Asian engines (with fuel costs like the National Debt!)

Nitro is not cheap out in this part of the world as it is imported
from both the USA and China.

Anyway, Troyp, 5% should suit both your engines o.k.

But suggest you have a look at "The Bolly Book" written by Les Bolenhagen of Bolly Props in Adelaide.

The URL is: http://www.bolly.com.au/book/

It contains a lot of good info and debunks a lot of myths on tuning and running 2 and 4 stroke model engines.

Les has been around aeromodelling for many years, as a flyer, a designer and manufacturer. He works in closely with Pattern, Pylon, Scale and Electic flyers and his props have been the prop of choice at the TOC.

He is very approachable and is only a phone call away from Broome.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

When I first started flying R/C, in the mid to late sixties, it was common for most clubs to have a fair number of the members flying the latest pattern design as a sport plane. Many of the sport fliers had pattern aspirations and would practice flying the pattern, even though their family or work schedules kept them from participating in contests enough to earn a name in the sport. We used to discuss pattern design, construction and flying quite a bit. It was fun.

No one groaned, well hardly anyone, when a club member brought a pattern ship up to the flight line to fly. Those days are long gone, as most pattern model fliers will verify.

I enjoyed the camaraderie we shared. Pattern models were more affordable and one could feel as though they were participating, even though they seldom flew in a contest. I miss those days. To me, they did not have to go away for any reason other than the wallet jockeys took over the hobby.

Don't get me wrong, I spend a bit of money in our hobby, as most of you do as well. I just don't like the way that pattern has evolved. Much of the money being spent on pattern today does nothing to further R/C aerobatics. I think we could have just as much fun flying smaller and cheaper to operate models, but with a much larger base of participating members.

I've beat this topic to death. I apologize to the original poster and to those that enjoy pattern just as it is. Later.

patternflyer1

My Feedback: (11)

Very good LUDS96. That's the common misconception. As far as Artisan is concerned, I agree that pattern may have been more fun back in the 60's or 70's for you. But pattern has now developed into precision aerobatics, it's not just about flying a pattern full speed anymore. I have a curare that is a late 70's pattern plane and honestly, it doesn't give me have the pleasure of my newer pattern ships. The cost of everything has also gone up. Look at the price of a car or a home as opposed to the 60's. Camaro's and Mustangs for 3500 dollars versus 30,000 to day. I'd say the percentage for the pattern plane is much less than that!!! My.02

troyp

Down Under,

Okay so I am sort of lost in this on going Nitro debate. Let me get this straight, I can simply use Shell A in my engine without having to add anything to it or buy BP Methanol and add some Castrol M? Why dont I have to add any oil to the Shell A, is that because it already has oil mixed in perhaps?
Also why dont I have to add any acetone to the BP methanol?
4 litres of fuel from our hobby shop costs me around $48.00 so buying from Shell would be a bargain. We have both BP and Shell fuel ditributors in Broome so I can easily get either product.

downunder-RCU

Troy...with either the Shell or the BP methanol you have to add whatever % of oil you want to use. Not quite sure where you got the idea about not needing to add oil to the Shell A But you certainly do. The acetone is just an optional extra for the BP. I never add it because I've never found a need for it but others say it helps.

Your basic fuel that'll work quite well is Shell or BP methanol plus whatever oil % you want. I just mix 4 litres of methanol with 1 litre of Castrol M in a 5 litre can and go fly. Make sure though that all the oil is completely mixed first...it takes a bit of shaking to do that. Anything other than methanol and oil is just an additive, and that includes nitro.

Check the prices at both Shell and BP first....

jessiej

[I enjoyed the camaraderie we shared. Pattern models were more affordable and one could feel as though they were participating, even though they seldom flew in a contest. I miss those days. To me, they did not have to go away for any reason other than the wallet jockeys took over the hobby. ]


This is the predictable pattern in most sports. At one time I competed in Handgun Metallic Silhouettes shouting. Initially one could be quite competitive with an out of the box S&W or Ruger revolver. Eventually the equipment evolved into devices bearing little resemblance to a practical sidearm. Did ant of you Drag race in the 50s? Compare your equipment with what it would take today.

Like it or not that is the nature of competition. The only way to level the economics of the playing field is for everyone to use the same equipment as in some forms of motor racing.

For pattern this would require everyone to use the same engine, fuel, airframe,radio,etc.