kochj

I can't say enough of how helpfull the website is in guiding my decisions to purchase and maintain my hobby . I have heard horrible tales about the BME 110 but few if any of the 100 Desert Aircraft. It seems that the only good running engine to come in the 110 would be the one to come from BME test team, at which they had time to fix all the problems that they had ran into. I hate to see anyone in our hobby spend there hard earned money on a product with great expectations, only to find themselves with and engine that will not run worth a rat. I will have to go with the reliable one DA. ~ Thank you all

Icebird

Unbelievable!!! You dig up a thread that's quite old, and based on ONE engine that seems to have a problem, you decide that the engine is no good???? Go through the entire thread, and count for yourself, there is only ONE user that is having a problem. There are a LOT of these engines out there that work just fine. I have one myself, and it has been a great engine from day 1! Unfortunately, due to health concerns, I have to sell it, but it is one heck of a motor. The SHIPPING weight of the engine is lower than the weight of a bare DA 100, so even if the power was the same, your plane should be lighter, and therefore have a better power to weight ratio.

In any case, if ONE engine is enough to base your decision on, then I guess I'd better not tell you about the guy locally that has a DA 100 that won't turn a 26X10 Menz prop at more than 5200, or you'll have to find yet another engine.

Jim

cygnet

My Feedback: (33)

Here Here

bodywerks

My Feedback: (4)

Running it without the cowl was your first mistake. If you run this engine without the cowl for more than 15 seconds at a time with cool-downs between runs you're asking for trouble.

bodywerks

My Feedback: (4)

Someone else on here mentioned that their BME ran "COOL". What is cool to you? While I don't necessarily trust IR temp guns, the lowest reading I ever got on my BME was 240F near the top fins. IMO, this engine runs "HOT", compared to others...mostly due to the cylinder fin design, I'm sure, and even though it does run hot, it runs consistant throughout the flight and doesn't get any worse. Of course, in my case, it doesn't get any better, either!

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

You gotta be kidding, right?

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

Anyone who thinks their pride and joy runs cooler than 240 IN THE AIR is fooling himself...
The temp inside the cylinder is over 1000F, what makes you think any amount of finning can cool this ? Our race twins run 12,000 rpm at 900F exhaust temp with no problems at all....We have RCATS onboard telemetry, everything about the engine is displayed on a laptop in the pits during the race...Airpeed, rpm, temps on both cylinders...
I can run my GT80s at WOT all day long on the test stand at over 300F, no problems...
A few seconds at less than WOT drastically lowers the temp...You can't tell anything about temps after you land the plane and taxi to the pits....
Petrol dripping from the carb an ANY rpm is the sign of a leaky inlet needle....

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Thank you, Ralph To debate a little on one point with other makers of engines, I've seen some pretty high CHT temps during high rpm ground running. High enough that continued running would have caused some serious problems. I'll have to admit they were not always mounted facing forward, but they were fully exposed. As for telemetry, you KNOW it's right in front of me

Danny Allen

Hi Guys,

I have a BME 110 on the Matt Chapman 1/3 scale CAP 580 and it runs great. I had some concerns on the temp readings I was getting on the right cylinder though. Right cylinder varies from 240F to 265F and I have seen temps up to 274F on occasion. Left cylinder varies from 207F to 230F. Also the left cylinder puts out a lot more oil residue meaning the right side is running leaner but know way to adjust each cylinder separately.
I have the cowl baffled and tuned to about 300 rpm below peak.

The motor however runs great. No bogging down on uplines and very dependable at all throttle settings. I checked the plugs and they are both tan so not too rich. I may richen it up a little more but I read that you do not want them running too rich either. Just don't want to burn it up.

I talked to a guy at Don's HS (probably Don) and he said operating temp is from 200F to 250F and not to worry about the temp until you get in the upper 200F range to 300F.
He said this engine will run up to 40 degrees hotter than other 100's due to it's high performance design. I think 270 is pushing it though.

Not sure how I can lower the temp anymore.
Are you guys seeing these same kind of temps?

Any suggestions or comments would be great.

Thanks,
Danny

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Dan--If you adjust the low a tad you might see the temps between each cylinder come much closer. I know this sounds funny, but I have played extensively with my 110 and by adjusting the (both) needles I could bring the cylinder temps within a few degrees or spread them way apart. DON'T over heat the engine on the ground experimenting, it can happen faster than you think. With the 110 I have found the needles setting take a little time to dial in. I would not worry about those temps you are seeing, or your settings. (maybe richen a tad) If it is running fine, fly it and have fun.

Danny Allen

Wow, thanks so much RTK for your quick response and the tip on the low end adjustment. I'll try that.

For starters would your recommend turning the low end needle maybe an 1/8 of a turn in for leaner or out for richer?

Thanks again,
Danny

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Try richening the low just a tad first (1/16,1/8) and see. If you lean the low end watch the high end, it tends to lean it more than you think.
I like to be a tad darker than tan on the plugs because I am not baffled that well and sometimes I stand on the engine pretty hard.

Danny Allen

Thanks again RTK. This is the kind of stuff you don't get from the manual. Very valuable information for myself.

Yeah I was wanting the plug a little darker.

ttyl,
Danny

Danny Allen

RTK, my eyes must be getting bad. I can't see the L or H on the carb for which needled is which. The lighting was not that good when I looked for it though so I need to get a flshlight and look again.
Is the top needle closest to the cylinders the low end needle and the bottom needle the high end adjustment.

The manual does not say other than there are letters on the carb for each needle.

thanks,
Danny

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Low is closet to engine, High is furthest out.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

I have the BME 110 Xtreme in my 2.6m extra by composite arf. It is a great running engine, just that it is not reliable and robust. It will overheat easily. I only touched the needle 1/8 of a turn from the factory setting after break in and the engine overheat. The cowl is very well baffle too. As a result, the rubber boot (insulator) on the ignition module melted and one of the cylinder is scratched. The engine is now running on 1 cylinder only and it will not start. I have to send the engine in for repair and it is going to cost me dearly. I swear, I'll never buy BME engine again. I better stick with DA or ZDZ, more reliable and user friendly. BME tried to reduce the weight of the engine too much by sacrificing the cooing fins, which makes the engine runs too hot. This is not a good compromise for combustion engine. I had Brison engine before and I overheated the engine twice, but it always started again a few minutes later and no scratch or lost of power. Right now, I'm afraid of hearing the word BME.

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Don't take this personally, but over heating any engine is operator error. If you run any engine lean it will over heat, and over heating will compromise power or destroy an engine.
You got lucky on the brison. With the higher performance engines there is less tolerance for error. I do not feel that the weight has anything to do with your BME's cooling problem, the carbueration on the 110 is much more tricky to set correctly than most and you stated that you only leaned it a tad from factory setting. That has been changed with the 115, which uses a larger carb/reed block making adjusting much easier.
By the way there is no such thing as a good to go factory setting, there is no way to duplicate your environment and set-up at the factory.


I am not attacking you, just stating some facts. If there are any long time gas users at your field I would consult them because you have mentioned a few over heating related problems. If you have any other question that I might be able to answer, ask away.
I have the exact plane and engine you are talking about too.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

Yeah, it is always the operator error, never the design. I'm an engineer, I know about design philosophy. I have design many products. You must taken into consideration of all possible operator error and make your design robust so that your equipment/product last. You can't design the product so delicate and blame it on the operator.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Unfortunately I have the feeling that we're back to the "factory settings" issue/stumbling block again. Neither Brison or BME has ever "dialed in" the needles for a particular users location. It still seems to be a fairly common misconception thay the manufacturers do this, and it just isn't so.

The Brison that was over heated probably did lose some compression and output but wasn't severe enough to be noted by the owner. It will probably become more apparent when the engine fails to run as well as it should for as long as it should have. The Brison line of engines had a more "robust" case and engine design, permitting a bit more latitude in heat dissipation.

Something that may be a good idea with a new engine would be to open the needles up to about 1-3/4 to 2 turns out to be reasonably certain that the carb is set rich prior to the first run. It may make the engine a bit more difficult to start, but when it does you know you will be outside the danger zone and will be able to comfortably tune the engine from there. Another idea may be to simply start the engine with the needle settings it came with and open them a little after determining that the engine will start. Leaning an an engine immediately in the first run without first determining where the rich side is sets the stage for some serious issues with excessive leaning.

I'm fond of the idea of having the manufacturers remove the needles from the carbs after the test runs, affixing identity labels to each one if needed, and shipping the engine without the needles in the carb at all. Include information with the engine for an initial needle setting to get it started, thereby forcing the user to learn how to tune the engine from day one. That would instantly eliminate the "factory settings" myth. Might make for a few more customer phone calls but could also eliminate quite a few engine returns that are DOA due to over heating.

Next step is determining if an engine has been over heated without tearing down the engine. It becomes very hard to start, won't pull worth a darn if it does run, and has very little, if any, compression. If you have an engine that fits a couple of those points you likely know what happened and who did it. Unfortunately the same conditions apply to an engine that is completely worn out, but unless you have around 500 hours and up of running time on it that probably is not the case. Removing the head to note if the ring opens up and expands in diameter is another clue. If it remains in the ring groove and fails to expand it's been over heated or is worn out.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

Initially, I really like the engine. I ran great, smooth, easy to start and lots of power. Until I discovered how fragile it is. How do you know you run it lean until you lean it. The engine couldn't last 1 slightly lean run. It gave no indication of being lean, just went dead. Before this, I kept monitoring the temperature but I couldn't tell. It ran rich or lean at about the same temperature. The DA and ZDZ engines operates under 200 degrees F but this BME runs at 270 degrees F. I tried to rich it out to cool it down but without success. A warning to all BME engine owner - once the engine runs fine, just leave the needle valve alone. Don't attempt to adjust it, even if your engine is broken in. You will risk damage the engine.
I have a friend who has a DA50. He ran the engine so lean and it burned. Sent it into DA and he got it fixed for free.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Bear in mind that one of these days, and I would believe that to be sooner rather than later, all those free repairs from DA will have a serious and upward effect on either the price of a new engine, the cost of repairs, or both. They cannot keep doing it free forever, especially considering the quantity of engines involved. Somebody has to pick up the cost because no business worth it's name gives away money. That cost is either being carried in the price of each new engine sold or it soon will be. There's no such thing as a free lunch and has a catch somewhere.

My knowledge of BME engines is somewhat limited, but the knowledge I have leads me to believe that the engine was run lean for much longer, and at a higher power level, than you may think. Generally a single, short lean run will have little, if any, lasting effect on an engine. However, failure of the operator to determine that a lean running condition is in effect prolongs the action and increases the amount of damage. Heat guns are fun little toys but are only as accurate as the manner in which they are used, and using the correct temperature reference point on an engine increases their usefulness substantially. A temperature gun is not an accurate method of measuring the heat output or running temperature of an engine. In providing some guidelines and rough references, perhaps, but accurate they are not.

It's possible that the larger BME engines could be less tolerant of user error. If, and I say if that is the case then using a BME big twin should be reserved for those with a little experience and who also have some idea of what they are doing. As in any other engine, those with the knowledge required to best make use of a power unit will be rewarded with the highest performance and longevity. That holds even more weight when using high performance products.

In the mean time, send it back to Keith and have him look at it if you have not already done so. He's usually pretty fair, unless you melted the engine down as did one customer I'm aware of. It wouldn't hurt to call first and let him know it's coming.

Since you brought up design parameters, how 'bout you design and manufacturer a new auto engine for me. I'll forget to run oil in it for 100 miles or so, along with no water in the radiator. I will trust it's robust enough to withstand a little operator error. Of course you'll be happy to replace it under warranty, right?

How about a new toaster instead, designed for 110vac. Should I accidentally plug it into 220vdc there won't be any issue with a new, free, replacement, correct? It's only operator error.

How about a new screwdriver? Should I use it for a prybar and bend the shaft double it will clearly be a design defect, yes?

There's no limit to the examples that could be provided that blow holes in the theory of "robust" design parameters to overcome operator error. Reality is something completely different from theory. One is, the other is wishful thinking.

HNPower, I don't know where you fly but if your in the central part of CA you're welcome to join RTK and myself one of these days. We'd both be happy to work with you and your engines if you want. We might all have fun while we're at it

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

As mentioned before, there are many ways of telling when an engine is running lean. Not setting the needles correctly or leaving them at factory setting can led to trouble with any engine. Do not blame the engine for the operator error.

By your statements it also appears that DA must be about the same as BME. They both burned up
Will you never buy a DA?? or maybe??? because they will fix a persons mistake for free the first time????

Hmm....

I have no sworn allegiance with any company, I like to experiment with the latest cutting edge technology. I would buy any of the top 5 manufacturers engines in a heart beat and I will guarantee you that they will all perform fine when set up correctly.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

ZDZ won't cut the owner any slack at all if they cook an engine. Nor will 3W. They fully believe in the Darwin theory, and will not provide any capital at all in over coming it. Both are rightfully quite willing to sell (or repair for a fee) more engines to those that have a need to continue their education.

Ever wonder why all new glow engines sold have the needle valves in a little plastic bag? That act, initiated a very long time ago, eliminated the "factory settings" misnomer, forced the new owner to tune the engine, and made fitting the engine in the box a very little bit easier. I wonder how much longer it will take for the gas engine manufacturers to re-discover the same lesson.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

how much is BME paying you anyway. Are you BME rep? You sounded like a knight in shining armor for BME.
I've read other threads about problem with BME xtreme and many users have same problem. If it is just a few isolated case, it is user error. If it is 10-30% of the product returned for the same problem, it's product defect. If you see 1 complain on here, multiply it by at least 10 to get the correct number. Silversurfer, you sounded like everyone who has this problem is an idiot and you the only one who knows what he's doing.

HNPower

My Feedback: (9)

I'm not saying that BME Xtreme is a garbage engine. I said that the engine runs good, but it is not design for reliability. Just not a good piece of engineering. One must be extremely careful in operating it and should not treat it as any other engine. If I spent $1300 for an engine, I don't want to pay another couple hundreds of dollars more after a few flights.