JetflyerJ

My Feedback: (67)

the diffrence here Craig with all the respect is that he's not looking to sell anything nor make a profit on whatever it is he has or wants to make for himself, he's totally respecting everyones business so no one gets affected by it .





Regards........Johnny Hernandez

Modelman

My Feedback: (7)

I realize his "intentions" are for home or personal use. But, let's get realistic here for a second.

Let's say he succeeds in cloning Philip's F-16. He's sitting on, what... $9,000 (fictional figure) of molds, tools, templates and materials. For what? 1 or 2 personal "replacement" fuse components? C'mon! Not likely. Even the purest of people will look at all the tooling, work and not to mention - the investment and say, "You know, I could sell a couple of these to my friends and maybe recoup my tooling costs."

"Avonds sells his kit for $1,500. I could guarantee a few sales of my version if it was priced at...$700."

Let's say you cloned BV's F-100. You had all these large expensive molds laying around for "personal" use. Don't tell me you wouldn't be tempted as heck to sell a few of these "kits" to pay a few bills, fund your next model, buy a turbine, etc.

Further, it makes absolutely no sense to me, to invest thousands of dollars in time and tooling when you can buy a replacement fuse from the Mfr. for $200. It's like Copying an entire Cadillac in your garage because you need replacement brake pads.

The temptation will be GREAT!

Craig

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

There is a HUGE difference between designing something with the generally similar outline of another product and pulling molds off the EXACT product.

Whether you believe it or not.. BV did design the Bobcat from a clean sheet of paper (it was a cocktail napkin if I remember right). The fact that it looks similar to other designs is irrelevant.. He didn't use another manufacturers parts to make his own. The Rafale was PURCHASED from Frantz Walti for the express intent of producing kits and was COMPLETELY above the table business-wise in all respects. Bob has never tried to claim otherwise.

Now.. pulling molds off of Phillip's design is perfectly OK if he wants to do it so long as he NEVER uses those molds for his own gain. That means selling kits, selling the molds to someone else to produce kits, etc.. If someone wants to go to those lengths.. that's their business.. I certainly wouldn't want to do that myself..

And until such time as he violates any laws.. you're making a bunch of claims and accusations which are completely unfounded, regardless of what you see as a 'logical' conclusion.

-Doug

ProfLooney

Also we seem to be talking thousands of dollars for making a mold. Hell for 200 or less I could make a compete mod of avonds F-16 all the tooling and hard work is already done all you have to do is set it in sand with a sep board clay the cracks spray some tooling gel after waxing of course and glass I can see thousands of dollars if starting from nothing but a premade glass fuse only costs a couple hundred and less if you like me and can get the materials for almost free it costs a hell of a lot less. so to me it is worth it if a operson wants to. I dont have 1500 laying around to buy a kit every time I may crash one when for a 200 dollar investment i can have a mold and pop one out for a few bucks. If it cost you a thousand bucks to make a mold of a glass fuse thats already done then somethings dreadfully wrong.

Joe

Modelman

My Feedback: (7)

Joe,

Your reply is exactly my point...

My point being... Someone elses "Hard work " is already done! Nothing there is yours. Nothing! You could spend a month duplicating every component and still have an Avonds F-16... an expensive one at that!

Good point again. Unfortunately, not many of us have access to resin, glass and chopping guns for personal use from our employers. So the alternatitive is to purchase the materials and equipment outright. Look at it that way. It's costly! I'm sure you would agree if you had to actually purchase your materials and buy the equipment.

Again, you tell me what it costs to purchase all the materials and equipment to duplicate and produce a large composite/molded part. It's well over $1000 if you're starting from zero. Not to include the cost of the master.

I guess the true issue here is not the cost or work involved in actual production of a composite part. The issue is the act of copying someone elses work. But hey, if you feel okay with being able to duplicate a $1500 kit with your "personal use" $9000 in tooling... go for it. As my wife says, "Don't get caught."

I'm off my soapbox now... I apologize for rambling!

Craig

PHIL NUZA

My Feedback: (19)

Please allow me to save this guy allot of time (money) and trouble.
just buy a KIT. Remember molds just give you a shell now comes the work and engineering part.And hope you get it right the first time.

LTV_A7D

My Feedback: (2)

I see what you mean (David),

I didn't understand what "copy" meant. In that case, it could be falling toward the gray area of plagiarism, but, only if the copier gives into temptation and begins to distribute the molds to fellow modelers for his own profit. It's a tough subject.

(And to the rest).....I still don't think Radiojets is a threat to Phil Avonds, I mean come on. This forum has blown way out of proportion. I think the IDEA that a great silent majority COULD be scheming to make their own molds from another designer's product (for their own profit), is more intimidating than what is actually happening. I would reasonably guess that a very small percentage of jet modelers are making their own molds and even fewer are actually copying a pre-made fuse (which is probably why R.J. came here looking for the select few others doing the same). I'm still somewhat surprised at the almost violent responses from various reps and manufacturers. Remember, this Internet really lets one see what the guy next door is up to. But, I don't think you're going to shake any foundations by making threats, by attempting to interweave morals upon others, or complaining about feeding a family which YOU chose to have. This jet forum is great for the exchange of information, but, that should be it. Getting your blood to boil over what the jet modeler next door is up to is not worth it. Because, if they were an actual threat, we would not see the vast number of ongoing successful kit companies (as there are today). ...and now I'm totally out of soap!

Steve :stupid:

ProfLooney

Ditto Steve

And I might add again this is just a hobby to most of us and if someone wanted to spend his "Thousands" of dollars making 1 mold for 1 plane that "You can buy cheaper" then let him its his own business. And if he bought the first kit then he has paid Phil all he deserves. Lets get real here guys. If you buy a kit have a crash or an accident while transporting How many of you waste your money buying a new kit for maybe 1 broken part and how many of you fabricate your own broken part. If you think it is plagerism to Buy a kit and then rebuild a part in case something happens, Then all I can say is why dont you share your wealth with the rest of us not so fortunate folks "Who have to put food on the table for our families".

Thats why I would rather scratch build and wished there were more plans for built up jets. Because with distributors and manufacturers with attitudes abt feeding their own families and stuff, well what abt us that Buy your stuff we have families or ourselves to support too and cant always pop out 1500 to rebuy a kit we bought once before and already put the money in your pocket once. now dont become greedy, I dont live in arkansas and now have to buy my resins and glass, but if you shop around online I can still get enough materials to build a mold for 200 or less. Remember, we have the web and there is always some cheaper place to get stuff. So I think all the Scare tactics abt thousands to make a mold from an already tooled product, Most of us that have done it before and those that are all around the hobby that has done it know better.

Also do you think it is Plagerism to take a set of plans and have a kit cutter Copy them for you and cut you some parts then since the kit cutter has the vectors for that set of plans to cut more kits? I dont think so ! Don Smith is one that at bottom of his plans says that one cannot cut kits with out his permission. Well he better read up on the laws cause they are doing it all over. He has a copyright on his plans but that is it. If a person wants to have a kit cutter cut a kit for them that is their right. Unless he has a patent on his parts (which I doubt because the cost of it would outweigh what he can get out of it ) Not to mention he would have to post the pending patents of his parts then, He has absolutely no say so in who cuts kits from his plans. Thats another example of greed. It would be very different if he manufactured his own kits but he just provides plans for the scratch builder.

Basically these designers could think abt the little guy and design a set of plans for someone that may want to scratch build a plane. I know Phil has the F-14 as built up because I just ordered a set of plans. But what about the rest of his planes? You know most of these designers are hurting themselves. O f course I dont think a lot of them are sitting around worrying abt something like the debate we have going on here as they already know someone will make a copy of their plane and it will normally never be known. But they had to draw up a set of plans to design the thing, why not make more money by selling a set of plans for the people that may not be able to shell out 1500 fot a kit. Or make more by the people that save up and can afford 1 kit maybe cannot buy another for yrs to come, but could afford a set of plans. I think a lot of it is greed. they see more money in having a product someone has to pay them big bucks to have rather than small bucks to buy a set of plans and build their own from scratch.

Ok I'm done venting for this thread

Joe

Countryboy

My Feedback: (25)

ProfLooney

You want plans? G. Bertella out of Italy has several jet plans available.

Just to list a few...F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, SU-27, Mig 15, Mig 17,
MB339, SR-71, Tornado, Rafale, F-84F & G, and several others.

Take your pick, order a set of plans and scratch build it. After you have finished spending countless hours and lot's of hair pulling getting the thing to the point of being flight ready, then come back and tell us how you feel about overpriced kits. Oh yea, after your finished, could I borrow it for a plug? Make it an Su-27 please.

Granted... these mega buck kit's are not for everyone, and I think the designers/manufactures realize that to bring a highly pre-fab composite kit to market that sales numbers are not going to be that great. They know beforehand that they are dealing with a limited client base. I would think that they look at this aspect and have somewhat of an idea as to how many kit's will be sold to recoup their expenses plus make a marginal profit.

I don't see the names of Violett, Avonds, Geitz, Rantet... anywhere on the "Forbes" top ten list, or the top one thousand for that matter.

Technology marches on, and there are some that are willing to pay for that technology. Sad but true. not everyone is on the same pay scale and the ones that can afford to purchase these overpriced kit's should not have it held against them.

Someone mentioned they build furniture, now you want to talk about overpriced name brand.

ProfLooney

You want plans? G. Bertella out of Italy has several jet plans available.

True but I have not found anywhere in the states to order them. I have a friend in austrailia that has ordered a set of the Rafale from italy and it has been 2 1/2 months and he has yet to see them. I would rather order from a place that I know for sure I will get them and get them timely.

I love scratch building been doing it for 25+ yrs and to me the building the entire plane yourself is the most enjoyable part. I am not saying I havent had my share of head scratching and *****ing abt how the designer should have explained better abt how to do some special construction he OR she used, but thats the fun part of it for me. Personally the only mold I have made was for the Ziroli P-40 after I scratch built the fuse. to me even after 15 yrs of working with fiberglass I much prefer a wood fuse than a glass fuse, just like I am not a fan of foam core wings as I prefer the Built up as for me it is easier to install all my crap in. Though most of my planes are WWII fighters and bombers I like to install all my controls so they are hidden which means a lot of stuff in the wings themselves.

Joe

aparchment

Craig:

With all due respect I think it is backwards to say it costs thousands of dollars to mold a part or fuse for which you already have the "plug" and also to say that the manufacturer will only charge a couple hundred bucks for a new fuse. My only experiences with seeking replacement or additional parts have been that the sum of the parts would most likely have exceeded the price of the kit.

This is a tough call. Once you buy the kit you can pretty much do whatever you want with it except copy it and sell the copies. There is no doubt that this type of behavior is purely theft. However, if you don't sell copies but only use the molds for personal use the question is whether you are doing something wrong because you are depriving Philip of the revenue he would have made if you need to replace the plane or parts of it. Personally I don't think you are but that's only my opinion. I can think of a ton of reasons why I am wrong and a bunch for why I am right. For me it comes down to what I perceive as fair.

Antony

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DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

You don't necessarily have to buy an entire kit or go to the trouble to make molds to replace broken fiberglass parts.

In my case, I'd crushed the nose of my Y/A A-4 one too many times. I called Charles at Y/A to ask if he could mold just the nose section for me. He told me that he couldn't do it.

I knew that the shape of the Y/A A-4 and the JHH A-4 were exactly the same, so I called Larry and asked him. He initially wanted to lay up an entire fuse, but I explained that I only wanted the nose section forward of the inlets.

A few days later, I had a replacement nose section at a nominal cost and a minimum of time and trouble that I grafted onto the fuselage. I'm sure that Avonds or any other kit manufacturer that has on-site production would gladly work with the modeler to produce the needed parts to keep the plane in the air.

Dan

rcricky

Dan,

What did you do about the cockpit area, coz that sure as heck aint "exactly the same" as Jet Hangar's. Anyway, why didn't Larry just sell you the fuse? I'd think he would have been thrilled to be able to at least sell a partial A4 this year......

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

I didn't have any problems mating the cockpit area of the JHH nose section to the Y/A fuselage. I made a vertical cut just ahead of the inlets on both the Y/A fuselage and the JHH nose section, then grafted them together. If you saw my model in RCM's coverage of the BitW 2002, then you've seen the results.

But my point was more about how it isn't always necessary to buy a whole kit or make a complete mold of a FG fuselage just to replace a broken part. I was only using my A-4 as an example.

Dan

rolln_thndr

My Feedback: (1)

How did you graft an epoxy nose section on to a polyester fuse? I'm just curious because I thought epoxy and polyester are incompatible (I may be misinformed though).

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

It's a pure mechanical bond. I made a butt-joint between the two sections and tacked then together with CA, then sanded the inside really well with coarse sandpaper and layed on a wide strip of FG cloth & either Z-Poxy laminating resin or 30-minute epoxy. I can't remember which right now as it's been a while since I did this, but I know that it was a slow-drying variety.

Dan

LTV_A7D

My Feedback: (2)

RCricky, that was kind of a low-blow. Jet Hangar's models rule and you know it. Rolling Thunder, great question...now who can answer it? Lastly, I can't believe the JHH/Yellow A4 worked its way into THIS forum....let's see, which one of these models came into existence first? And people are nervous about what the ordinary guy next door is up to?


PS Thank you, Dan! I didn't know either.
PPS: I own a Yellow A4! Very happy with it and I like JHH kits as well, very much.
Steve

PPS: Yeah, I gotta go along with ya "Ricky" :stupid: , JHH has been around for over 20 years in a nearly impossible business. But, they don't rule. And neither does Yellow, Century Jets, Top Gun, Jim Fox, Thorpe Bros. and all other companies that provide an easy/economical way into the hobby. I know, you probably ONLY fly BVM...well, exxxcuuuuse me. Even if I were a multi-millionaire, I'd still want kits from these other "entry-level" manufacturers. And that is a more detailed explanation of why I stated the word "rule". Try reading between the lines next time, bright one.

Shaun Evans

Oh Lord,

We're not back to this, are we? I really thought we'd exhausted this before, but I guess not. I really wish that if anyone had a real case, or at least some hard facts, that they'd hire an attorney and pursue some legal remedy. Wouldn't that be much better than all the innuendo?

Yellow Aircraft, Int. commissions mold-makers to build plugs for kits. They also buy molds of existing kits to build and remarket them. They don't need to 'steal' airplanes from anybody.

With the introduction of the Yellow Aircraft A-4, modelers got a much easier to build, more highly detailed and better priced alternative to the existing A-4s of its time. Competition amongst manufacturers was good for the consumer, once again.

DanSavage

My Feedback: (5)

I'm not.

As I wrote previously, my only point was that it's not always necessary to buy a complete kit or make a mold of a entire fuselage to obtain the parts to fix a broken model. There are reasonable alternatives that both protect the manufacturer's interests and serve the needs of the modeler.

Dan

rcricky

Yep, Thunder, that was kind of mean. Sorry! I don't thik those kits 'rule' much, but I didn't mean to kick the guy when he's down.

TGoodwin

I have read through this entire thread but have not seen mention of one pointe.

So who is paying royalties to or seeking permission from McDonald Douglas, General Dynamics, Lockheed Martin and others just to name a few for making "F15" "F16" "F18" etc.? Think about how much R&D dollars they invested. Don't they ultimately own these designations, trademarks and designs?

Just a question.

Ted

ProfLooney

Very good point Ted not to mention all the factory drawings we can get on the web one of them the chance vought company has theirs on the web at http://www.vought.com/vspecial/html/download.html all their work on the A7 and the F-4U and others can be gotten with fuse formers airfoils etc noone pays them for their hard work. I am working on an A-6 intruder now and not gonna pay royalties for the drawings so most of the arguements are mute.

If you build a kit and there is no glass fuse for the plane so you build a glass fuse and sell fuses for the plane you gotta ppay royalties? I dont think so so this whole thread is a mute point.

Shaun Evans

Prof,

I don't really see the connection between paying royalties for modeling a full-size aircraft and splashing someone's else mold outright.

In the case of the full-size aircraft you mentioned, there are companies that have 'splashed' them, too. They've done it under license, and did, in fact, pay 'royalties'.

ProfLooney

Well I am not for outright copying either but if I scratch build a plane then decide to make a mold and sell it and if it happens to be the same as the companies due to same plane was molded for I dont feel I owe anyone anything and can sell to my hearts content as I was the one that built the plane and molded it who cares abt the designer they draw and sell their plans knowing people will be doing that. If I was to do a glass fuse of a plane from their fuse I would change it 10% as required by adding maybe scale details etc if the original doesnt have it and sell it as my own. that is called business and is totally legal. If I built a plane and sold a glass fuse I wouldnt be so ignorant to know I will be losing some business by someone copying my work and altering it. if it wasnt altered yes i would take legal action if not i would tell the person good luck and what a good job they have done. Also if the part isnt patented then theres nothing the designer can say abt it.

Do I think this is fair hell yes it is fair because if you go into a business and dont protect you work with patents well you snooze you lose. It is done every day in the big corporate world what makes the hobby world any different it is called making money and running a business.

Joe

PS I dont do this as i just enjoy the hobby but i back up anyone who does and does it legally

SDCrashmaster

Patents and Copywrite protect against thievery. Stealing someones work and claiming that "well, there was no patent on it" only makes that person a legal thief.
If you can live with your thieving self, then have at it. Unfortunately, there are far too many 'thieves' in the world that manage to sleep well at night.