Shaun Evans

Well,

I only had occasion to talk to Scotty about BVM once. In the conversation, he spoke highly of BVM's quality and performance. Since that conversation was the only one in which the issue arose, I only have that to base my idea of what Scotty thinks about BVM on. Did he really intend to 'put BVM out of business'?? Did he really mean it literally? Did he really have that kind of malice for BVM, or was it more like competitive bantering?

It's quite true that there are more than a few loyalists who will come in here and trash everyone else. Mostly, they're not Reps, but just mean, elitist types. I suppose there are those in this hobby who behave like that for all the major manufacturers, but what does it help?

I look at many of the posts I've read in this thread as basically 'kicking a man when he's down' and I think it's got to be the most useless of motives. Probably, the man is losing his shirt on this deal, and he probably doesn't feel good about failing at this, either. Why not leave the guy alone?

I feel badly for Mr. Bolduc, and I wish better luck to the next guy who makes an attempt.

EddieWeeks

Well I guess you were not there when he said
"We are going to do Bob Violett" and that is a quote.

I have known Scotty longer than anyone because I
got him into this hobby. Before he saw me fly a foam
job with a JPX260 he did not know there were turbines
that size.

Scotty is a nice guy. As he once said "I don't have a mean bone
in my body" and in my option he is correct.

That does not mean his mouth won't overload his
***** when he gets excited.

I learned a long time ago its either the CAI show
or no show. If he can't be the best then he is not going
to play.

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/Rig/Rig.html

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

I second that. Scotty has always been a hell of a nice guy, in my opinion, and has a great sense of humor. I wish him the best and I hope we will someday see him show up at some jet events. If he does, he (and everyone else) will always be welcome at the Weeks/Woketman tent/trailer/rum distributuion station!

yeahbaby

My Feedback: (21)

Eddie and Wocketman,

I'll augment the distribution center with some Mekong whiskey from Thailand. Guaranteed to help you lose 10lbs in 30 seconds.

Aaahh the memories......

take care boyz,

Buck

Jack Holland

My Feedback: (1)

Ok, I'll bite on this one. I'll share this story now and hope you enjoy. I have been building jets for 15 years. I love the BVM products. I have BV koolaid in my veins. I make a great living building their products for other folks. I know Bob and Patty personally, like , and respect what they do. Let me set the facts up here for you on what it was like in the beginning. I met Scotty at Florida jets years ago when he had a glisten in his eye to offer something new, something different. He took a proven design from a talented designer, Dan Gill and his Vortex, stretched it out, and installed a Sophia J-450 in it. He did this purely for the excitement of doing it... to have his own jet..Period! Not to put BV out or anything like that. The #4 Razor which weighted 21lbs dry was on display there. I was impressed from a builders point of view. Here was a jet with intakes already installed that came with everything in one box as a deluxe package. It was new, and different, it was highly prefabbed like nothing I had ever seen. I expressed interest to him about building one of his Razors for him. He invited me and a jet customer of mine to fly down to Baton Rouge and go fly with him. We did. He started the J-450 and handed me the Tx and pointed me to the runway. He replied, just taxi back to the hanger when your done, and we'll shut it down here. Now folks, here was a guy who just handed over the TX to a new jet plane to someone he had only met weeks before. Oh hang on it gets better... After we spent the day there, he invited me to rep for him, and I thought I was in heaven. We got ready to board Jim's Cessna 340, and Scott said, take it with you and fly it. He provided me with EVERTHING I needed to start and fly the Razor. Scuba tanks, regulator, everthing...I kept this jet for a season till I had was able to afford my dream...the Raptor..We made it's debute at Superman 98. The "Vista" schemed jet I built in Scott's shop while camped in my motorhome in his driveway. Another builder was supposed to have a Raptor ready for rigging and test flights 2weeks prior to the show. Ten days out, he calls and gives a list of excuses why he can't do it. With only 10 days, I built, painted, riveted with my wife and Lauren(Scott's wife), and cleared the jet you saw in 6 days. Scott and Dan rigged, as I passed out for a recovery sleep from the round the clock labor I had just endured. 10- 15 minute cat naps and pure "Got To" is what keep me going.
We made it to Superman on schedule and the "Vista" performed FLAWLESSLY. I was given a Pegasus to use for my own Raptor which made it's first appearance at Toledo 99, the made it's way around the jet circuit in Texas, and Mississippi, then Superman.

Also, you have to admit, when he debuted and flew the Panther at Superman, landed all dirtied up, then folded up the wings when taxing back...we all wee-weed on ourselves!!

It was after the warm reception and attitudes he received had taken it's toll, that it may have shifted directions alot. I felt this and did not like it. I wasn't out to get anyone...I still always visited BV and the gang in their tents at the shows and was greated with a handshake and a smile. This is how it should be. We all love jets...bottom line. I was, and still am an active dealer for BVM, wasn't going to change that, so I parted from CAI not so smoothly after about 2 years due to conflicting egos and ideas regarding the loss of my Raptor at a show. Feelings were hurt a little, things were said...you know how it works...but time healed. BV is the king, but CAI did have some kool stuff, and some neat ideas. I have yet to fly anything as exciting as the Raptor. I hope some one will buy the molds and continue to produce this outstanding jet.

Good luck in your endeavors Scott and family, and our prayers go out to Lauren for a complete and speedy recovery.

Jack Holland
Genesis Jets
Professional Jet builder and fishing guide

Brian B

My Feedback: (5)

It never made any sense to me that a new company like CAI would come along and jump right into the high end market where BVM had been king of the hill for so long. It just did not seem like a good business plan to me. It might have worked better to come out with some less expensive kits, build a good rep, then move into the high end.

Also, there were the unfortunate crashes, many with lots of witnesses. That did not help. These led to some cruel jokes, which are probably familiar to most of you. For example, what does CAI stand for? Answer: Comes Apart Immediately. Or, Crash And Ignite. And so on. Once these got into general circulation, it was easy to tell that the modeling community had lost faith in CAI and that the end was near. Too bad, it could have been different.

Vincent

My Feedback: (61)

Jack,

Very good post, I enjoyed reading it. Facts are facts, you were there and thats it. I never owned a CAI product but did buy some accessories from Scotty with no complaints. IMHO I would have refined the raptor and stayed with it for a long time before moving on to all the other stuff, Scotty did too much too fast. The vortex design could have given been a main stay in the sport jet market if it had been handled correctly.

Vin...

JET FX

Why bash a manufacturer?
It never ceases to amaze me how many, uninformed morons have survived to adulthood. Common sense just aint so common I guess!!!!!!

I wonder how many of the bashers have had a go at producing, anything other than hot air and BS.
I am taking note of whos doing the bashing, and just ticking them off my list of credability...

As to BVM, I like his products, and I admire his achievments...
But Bob please be more selective with who you have reping for you, some of these guys are total loosers and ruin the strong rep you have created over the years. We enter this hobby, for fun!
Do these pin head reps really think they have any credibility after bagging another manufacturers products?
Wake up! and have a go yourselves...But that is not likely is it!!!!

Scotty good luck , and may good fortune and health find your family well.

Sorry guys, but I hate 'wanna bee's' - and had to vent, after reading so many dumb posts hear! (you know which ones I refer too.)

Marty Cowan...

GlennisAircraft

My Feedback: (1)

First of all let me say I never met Scotty in person, but I know a lot of 'big swingers' in this hobby who did, and I don't know any of them that have much good to say.

I personally spent several dozen (probably more) hours on the phone with Scotty though, and never had a 'solid' feeling about where he was coming from. When someone bounces in this hobby with (what he claims) are millions of dollars, claims to be an engineer, these little details like wing fold mechanisims don't pop up.

I just told Jack Holland on the phone yesterday about the old "Aluminum P-51" story (20 years old or so now). This guy bounced in one day, told this big story, sold all of the magazines on the 'story' (Scale RC Modeler really taking the bite), took all kinds of deposits, then skipped out never to be seen again. When some guy comes along that I never heard of, with all of this big dollar talk, I'm skeptical.

Scotty told me on several occassions that he intended to put BVM
"out of business". He also had said several other things such as he would "buy him and close him up", etc. The statements that Scotty made to me alone about BVM would fill a small book. Scotty was into it with AMT, myself (on several occassions) and many other long time manufacturers in this business (not to mention BVM).

I don't know how long any of the participants here have been in this hobby, but I have for 30 years. When someone skips in and starts 'bangin heads', modelers/manufacturers, especially in the 'jet set', they don't like it. No one minds a little competition or a new manufacturer, but when they come in and start (what I call) throwing their weight around, it causes hard feelings, and you are in for an uphill battle.

I know (for a fact) that BV and/or his 'guys' bashed CAI, I have personally heard it done on more than one occassion. CAI isn't the only one they 'bash', but bashing is always a two way street.

Why shouldn't BVM bash CAI? Here is a guy telling everyone he is going to put you out of business, and in direct competition for a very very narrow market of modelers. Every kit and accessory that CAI produced was a direct dollar out of BVM's wallet.

In my opinion, his first problem started with the "shotgun" approach of trying to offer a full line of kits/accessories without getting your feet wet to start. BVM didn't start this way, they started small and worked up. In fact this is his (Violett's) second time around as a manufacturer.

I realize that Scotty's statement revolves around family, illness, and Sept. 11, but we have all experienced these issues.

CAI had some good ideas and products, and some weren't, but in my opinion his problems came from his personality and performance of his stuff in the end.

Dennis Rastetter
Glennis Aircraft

JET FX

Dennis,
Bashing any manufacturer is not the way to gain self credibility.
(REGARDLESS OF REASON)...
I just dont understand why somthing that might be said during idle conversation constitutes starting a school yard style booger flicking
(*** fore tat) contest...

Who give a rats backside, if Scotty wanted to be the best!
And whats wrong with having ago anyway...??????????

Also regardless of what BV has said about his competitors, I DO NOT SEE
BV trashing anyone hear, or online period!!!!

Great expectations are to be admired not ripped apart. Wow! petty egos are quite evident hear.

Scotty may have tried to accomplish a lot in a short time, again why not!!!!!
I am not a CAI rep, or even own any of their products. I always admired the Panther and would still consider purchasing one if they were still available.
I DO NOT KNOW! why certain CAI models had accidents, I WAS NOT THERE! even if I was, I would not be saying negative comments, GEEZ models crash all the time, HOW DO YOU KNOW it was not the most common fault of all PILOT ERROR, ARE YOU SURE it was structual faliure????? WHERE IS THE PROOF????

Who are these people????, reps what ever?
what credibility do these people have...????
What qualifies these types to pass judgment????

I am yet to find ANY R/C product on the market that could not use improvment in one form or another.........


Cheers - Marty

jbsmith

My Feedback: (1)

He he he.
Wouldn't it be interesting if BV picked up CAI's kit line, tooling molds, ect.??

later

A10FLYR

My Feedback: (1)

I'd call that a compliment to Scotty!!

exocet-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Good Call, Dean!

I won a composite Razor at 98 Superman and Scotty was the nicest guy to deal with then and later. I ended up selling the jet to a guy here in Japan but, in my own dealings with Scotty and CAI, I had nothing but excellent service and a kind voice. That is more than I can say for some other makers' (Not BVM-Have never imported or ordered one) kits I have imported to Japan. I wish Scotty the best and the best to his family.

Tim

RC_MAN

My Feedback: (11)

If I was a beting man I would think that Century Jets will be picking up the line. It would comliment their current offerings. They seem to be buying everything in their sight lately.

Any Thoughts?

leer69

Geez Dennis, have you got an axe to grind or what. You're busy slamming Scotty but I notice you are hawking your wares to his customers.

So you know a lot of big swingers and none have anything good to say about Scotty. Gee do you suppose they didn't like the competition? Hmmmm, maybe they didn't like that he is a successful, aggressive business man who came into the market with a full head of steam. I'll bet he ruffled some feathers and upset some nests. Heck we can't have them BMW drivin' CEOs takin' over this hobby, no sirree.

Guess you're right about your starting small point though. When you have the means and ability to start with a bang you really ought to crawl into the market with an barely noticable product. That's how we push the envelope in this hobby. By the way, I am building a balsa ducted fan for Bryojet propulsion. It has a mongo cheater hole, anyone want to buy a few hundred?

You're right. Who cares what trash talk Scotty said about Bob or Bob said about Scotty to acquaintances. The "I'm gonna kick his butt" stuff doesn't mean jack, even if it is immature. Yeah it probably makes for hard feelings and makes the path to acceptance tougher if you're an outsider but to each his own. Now smeer campaigns and outright lies are a different matter. That goes beyond permissible bashing in my book.

Yep, Scotty rubbed people the wrong way with his aggressive style and no doubt that caused some resentment that may have helped bring CAI down but what's equally clear is that a bunch of insecure people with fragile egos are breathing a sigh of relief now that he's gone.

Yea baby -- now that's a mouthful. LOL

Tom

A10FLYR

My Feedback: (1)

VERY GOOD CALL , i AGREE. bRUCE, ARE YOU LISTENING?

DCM

My Feedback: (15)

************************************************** **
Guess you're right about your starting small point though. When you have the means and ability to start with a bang you really ought to crawl into the market with an barely noticable product. That's how we push the envelope in this hobby. By the way, I am building a balsa ducted fan for Bryojet propulsion. It has a mongo cheater hole, anyone want to buy a few hundred?

************************************************** **

Leer69

Your right on the mark.


David Hudson
www.dcmodelshop.com

GlennisAircraft

My Feedback: (1)

Leer69, I didn't want to see CAI go either, but I did want to make the point that a lot of the blame falls on Scotty himself. He did ruffle feathers, and that was my point. The 'big swingers' I spoke of though, were customers, not manufacturers (sorry, I wasn't clear).

I don't think Scotty was capable of starting with a 'big bang' in this hobby. If he did have the money, he did not have the experience. I've seen the Panther and Raptor in person, and during construction, and both had many issues that had never been addressed in their design.

I don't think that the wing fold incidents with the Panther were pilot related. The CAI website showed the mechanisim on 5/15/01 (in their news section), and in the second to last paragraph states "There is a scenario to where the hinges could fail when using the CAMS and mechanical locks. The failure mode occurs when either the front or the rear CAMS are not engaged on the pins. . . " Unless I'm wrong, I believe this was after the Top Gun/house incident.

You don't push the envelope when something is half designed.

Dennis

leer69

Dennis:

I agree that Scotty was capable of ticking off customers and manufacturers with his personality/attitude, but I also think that some of these problems arose because people who think they are due respect don't like it when they don't get it. It's all about egos butting into each other in my book.

To address your point about CAI/Scotty not having the experience to make models, my reponse would be that he bought the experience in the form of Danny and various other accomplished modelers and model builders. No doubt they made mistakes along the way, but that's how you refine product. Sometimes though the manufacturer isn't willing to refine to the extent that the customer would prefer. From what I have seen, at least on the sport jets, CAI was pretty close to being as good as it gets or if you prefer, as good or better than BVM. Likewise from what I have seen the scale projects, though awesome in many ways, definitely needed more bugs worked out. I am sure it's a heck of an undertaking to get one of these things perfect.

I don't get why you think the Panther incident wasn't pilot error. The second sentence you quoted says it all. Basically he says if the pilot/builder doesn't lock one or both cams on each wing before flight then the wing could fold. Sounds like he is addressing operator error in the form of failure to do a preflight procedure. Without removing the hinge mechanism altogether I don't know how you would completely remove operator error from this system. I suppose you could make it so that one cam could hold the entire load but I am not an engineer and don't know if this was possible. I still think it was pretty ballsy to contemplate putting this scale feature in a model, and that to me anyway amounts to pushing the envelope.

Anyway, I reckon we will just disagree on a few points and agree on others.

Respectfully,

Tom

Terry Holston

My Feedback: (1)

Guys,
As to the Panther wing folding at Topgun last year. The pilot was a good friend of mine: Mr. Lewis Patton a very accomplished jet pilot.

Lewis told me that the plane was entered in Team Scale at TG and that he was just the pilot, all preflight checks were done by the owner/builder, Not Lewis.

Lewis has/had a Panther also and his didn't have the wing folding option.

He didn't know the one entered at TG had one either! Until too late!!!!

I guess when it comes down to it the pilot should check every thing, as is full scale practice.

Just to clear things up a little about pilot error.

JET FX

Good one Terry...

As any body with real experience can tell you in a heart beat! regardless of who owns the aircraft, as with full size aviation!
IT IS THE PILOTS RESPONSIBILITY to fully check over the aircraft before flight 'especially' when flying at a public display...
Now for any pilot to state that preflight is not his responsibility,
blows me away!

So I guess the 'Panther' is not to blame afterall?????

Would you fly on any fullsize aircraft that was not often checked over....

Come on, if you have a wing fold mechanism and dont check that this feature is locked and loaded, you deserve to 'crash and burn'
Sounds like great engineeering to me if he was able to even take off!!!
let alone apparently complete a partial flight of any length.

So lets discuss how well designed/engineered the CAI 'Panther' really is !!!!!
"The bloody thing can fly on one wing"

Scotty, I hope you put a patent on that.....

Cheers - Marty

EddieWeeks

I was never impressed with the way the wing locked.
It had 4 x 1/8 roll pins that were pressed into
a big block of aluminum and then 4 aluminum latches,
pushed by 4 servoes, would rotate and grab the wussy little roll
pins. Yeah it worked, maybe... But with all custom
machining, I can think of many ways, it could have
been far simpler and stronger.

oh well ... as Scotty showed it to me, before it flew
I was thinking. "there go to be a better way than that"
but I did not say anything. I was trying to be nice.
He would not have listened anyway.

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

Seems to me that I have heard a couple of other manufacturers recently try to pin their design flaws on the end consumer. If the thing was designed right it would be fool proof. Sure the wing fold mechanism is cool but why introduce such a high potetial area for failure into these models? We don't need it for storage of our models on a carrier deck.

As far as someone deserving to crash and burn what an arrogant statement!

And come on Terry.....Lewis did not know that the airplane he was flying had the fold wing mechanism???? Gimme a break here. Lewis is more thorough than that. It was my understanding that Jess Hogan built the airplane. Jess and Lewis are good friends I am sure Jess would have told Lewis it had the wing fold mechanism, or at the very least Lewis would have seen it. BTW this was NOT the only Panther that failed at the wing fold mechanism. I personally know of at least one other.

Ron Stahl

My Feedback: (12)

How sad it is that another player in the so so small market of jets is gone. I give great respect to the players that have stood the test of time and in no specifec order, JHH, JMP, BVM, DL, Century,TGA, RAM, AMT, AVONDS,YELLOW. While there have been others that could have been on this list they all are gone, have come and gone, or have yet to show us that they can; so they can't be there at this time. I wish all of you well, but show us what you can do and not spend endless hours telling us with what you might do. As a modeler of over thrity years I have seen all of the players in the ducted fan and turbine market. The above companies are the ones that are here today but only as long as they choose to be. CAI was the last to fall but won't be the last to go. In the end the the companies that show up and FLY THEIR STUFF are the ones LEFT STANDING. Good luck to all of you who are in business in this small market.

GlennisAircraft

My Feedback: (1)

Well, after I went back and read all of the post's, I will have to say I agree with about everyone's opinion here.

As far as Leer69's last post, I'm going to print it and hang in on the wall, he pretty well covered my opinions there.

One last point on the wing fold, not to be too critical though. The CAI claim was that each hinge would stand 1140 pounds of torgue. First of all, I don't think the wing panel could withstand this stress. Unless the hinge was made from something I haven't heard of, I think 1140 lbs is a little on the fat side. With 2 hinges per side, this would be 2280 lbs of torque required to break that joint. Now to put this right in your own mind, imagine the 2 hinges secured (as they were in the wing) to a hardened steel (or stronger material) beam and weighted to 1.14 tons (2280 lbs). Were they that strong?

As I remember the 'Roll Pins' as Eddie described, I know it wasn't that strong, but I do agree that it is the pilots job to inspect the aircraft.

Dennis