Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

dubflyer: Answers to your questions.

1. You will probably need 10 yards of material for both planes.
2. I buy my nitrate dope from Aircraft Spruce & Specialties in Atlanta. Randolph is best.
3. I use normal laquer thinner purchased from Home Depot
4. I let nitrate dope thicken by putting some in a plastic cup, and leaving the top off. This I use for glue. Paint the surface you want to stick the fabric to - lay on the fabric, and glue through it.
5. I don't use any retardant. just dries normally.
6. I like BEHR latex paints the best from Home Depot, but I believe any brand latex is O.K.
7. I paint the latex on within one day of applying the three coats of nitrate dope, thinned 50/50.

dubflyer

My Feedback: (1)

Stickbuilder and Jim.......You guys are the reason why I like this hobby so much....taking the time to share your experiences and still forging fprward getting to know the limitations of materials as they appear on the market whalie at the same time taking on the challenges of building models and making a first class job if it to boot.

Great responses and I am learning all the while. I just received my gallon of Nitrate dope and butyrate dope from Aircraft Spruce. I also learned from their sales department that they do not have any experience using the products and are not sure what materials are used in the modeling world. In other-words I was told that you place the order and they pack it....they are not a source of information so you must know what you are ordering. This was told to me very sincerely as we had a very pleasant discussion with nobody on staff able to advise me on the use of the products in the modeling world.


I will experiment with the products as soon as I get settled in the UK. Yes I am transferring to the SE UK and am currently packing my household posessions in preparation to sell up and move to the UK for 5 - 8 years which by that time I will be retired and hopefully by then able to spend most of my days flying models in Florida.

I purchased Ceconite light fabric and Dacron to see how both would work out. Both are supposed to shrink using heat.

Will the Nitrate dope shrink the fabric further and if so how do I compensate for this . I guess this is where the experience come in and I will just have to experiment a little.
the brushes one uses with Nitrate or Butyrate dope one use only or can you clean them for multiple use.

Once again thank you for sharing your experiences.

Martin

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

I tried using stix-it once with pretty bad results. It was real thick and didnt thin enough to paint on. Did I get a bad can? Is it real thick straight out of the can and what would you thin it with? I'm gonna try koveral on a cub and an L-4 for this winters projects.
Edwin

woodbutcher

I thin Stix-it with dope thinner, works fine.

Jim Messer

My Feedback: (2)

To dubflyer:

I use non-taughtening nitrate dope. Is this what you purchased? If not, then it will continually tend to tighten - no problem with a good strong structure. Otherwise, look for warps like in your wings. I don't use any butyrate dope - no need to with gas engines.

Don't mess around with stuff like Stix-it when working with Ceconite. You don't need to be shrinking the fabric while trying to make it stick. Use a nitrate based glue like Ceconite Super Seam, or just plain thickened nitrate dope.

Highflyer2

My Feedback: (1)

Dubflyer

I use Ceconite exclusively (except when using Glen Torrance 5 color fabric for my German WW1 planes). I deal with aircraft spruce and specialty for all my materials (dope and such). I am lucky to live about 1 hour from their east coast store just south of Atlanta. The store staff is VERY helpful and knowledgeable. I suggest you go to their web site www.aircraftspruce.com and get the local number not the sales line. The store staff freely admits the people on the order lines are clueless as to 99% of the products offered by aircraft spruce.

Good luck

John

Stickbuilder

Dubflyer,

As does Jim, I use non-taughtening Nitrate Dope, followed by Automotive Primer. I have found that by going to my local DuPont auto paint store, they offer a very high grade of Sandable primer in aerosol cans. These are not like what you buy at the discount store, but is a larger can, and the nozzle gives a much larger fan shape, with no heavy concentration in the center of the fan. The pattern is much like what comes out of a Binks #7 gun. They also offer a very good clear coat in the same type of container. I have virtually switched over to aerosols, due to the non-issue of clean up, and the cost is pretty close to the same when you consider that there is no waste with the aerosol (you don't have to worry about mixing too much and dumping what is left over).

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder

Martin,

One thing... when you are shrinking the ceconite, I would reccoment using your covering iron only, and stay away from the heat gun. If you are not experienced with the gun, you can over do it, and either warp a panel or worse. The worse is once that you have reached the limit of the dry heat shrinkage, the fibers will experience elongation. In other words, the fabric will begin to grow. You will then get bags and wrinkles that will never come out.

Dacron fiber is made from two different polymers. Without getting too technical here, the main polymer has a melt temperature of approximately 256c. The binder polymer (normally a small percentage) begins to go molten at around 232c. Long before you approach these temps, is where you will see the dry heat shrinkage work best. The woven ceconite will usually shrink somewhere between 3-6% of the original size in both warp and weave direction.

I reccomend getting the fabric as flat as you can when applying (pull the bulk of the looseness out as you go). It is best if you apply the fabric with the span and chord of the wing, or with the stringer and formers on the fuselage. Applying the fabric on a bias can give you some concerns with what happens as the cloth shrinks. Be sure to use only pinking shears when cutting the woven fabric in order to prevent ravels and long tails of threadlines. If loose threadlines get under the cloth, they will leave a long hairlike blemish in your covering thet you will have to live with.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Phlip

Great thread here ... a wealth of info even for those of us who've successfully used Koverall in the past. One contribution I'd like to make is concerning Stix-It. Stix-It is not used to shrink anything, it's only used as an adhesive to stick the Koverall to the balsa. The advantage it has is that it can be applied to the airframe, only where you want the covering to stick, allowed to dry, and then the covering can be stuck down using your iron on low heat -- not enough heat to shrink the fabric. To me, this is a much neater process than trying to apply the covering material with wet glue or dope.

Phil

aerospot

I have been covering with Koverall for quite awhyle with great results. I'm still learnin new techniques and am thankful for threads like this that share with us all! I am going to purchase one gallon of Nitrate from Aircraft Spruce. One question, should I get the tinted or clear non shrinking? I sometimes have pinholes and suspect that the green tint would help identify when I have enough cooverage to fill the weave. Someone in this forum suggested that I use talc powder to get the weave filled better. Do you brush or spray on nitrate after the first brush-on coat?
When ordering the nitrate from Aircraft Spruce I think I'll try some of theyre 'economy' 1.8 oz fabric. I have a telemaster that is need of covering and would be a great test bed for the new 'stuff'. I've always used Sig stuff before, koverall & dope.
I've read articles about using latex and am intrigued for sure. What could be better than using water based paints with such easy clean-up?? But I fly Nitro airplanes and have used both Buterate Dope and Rust-Olium paint with good results. Is there a way to make the latex fuel proof for us nitro flyiers? what about a urathane finish?

Thanks to all those who take time & contribute here. I love building these things as much as flying em and am excited about the prospect of entering this building season here in the north-east. Now I just have to decide what to build... too many options!!

Dave

Swoose

My Feedback: (2)

I found this thread and had a question about Koverall. I am building a plane and just bought some MonoKote covering from a guy. He also gave me a package of Koverall. I have never used it before. My question is if I do use it, is it meant to be painted over or can you cover it with the MonoKote? I am not sure what the steps are to using it. The plane I am building is has balsa sheeted wings and fuselage.

Thanks for any help.

Phlip

Koverall is intended to be doped (painted). If you were going to put Monocote over it, you could just put Monocote on the plane! The idea behind Koveral is to get a vintage, fabric and dope look.

Phil

skylark-flier

Swoose, Phil is absolutely right. Monokote (or equivalent) is intended to stand alone, as is Koverall. But they're 2 completely different types of covering systems.

I don't know your experience level but I see from your profile that you're primarily interested in electric. It's most likely that Koverall will be too heavy, once painted, to be of normal use to you. Basically, it's a fabric that you stick on your plane (more or less like Monokote) but unlike monokote you then have to paint (dope) it, which adds weight, along with strength.

If you're flying mainly park fliers, or the like, I'd stick to monokote. If you're into the larger, more powerful planes you might look into koverall, but I think you'd still be better off with monokote. The koverall, like Phil said, is intended to reproduce the older look - like the planes appeared in the 50's and 60's. The application method is quite similar to that period too, although it should be applied with a glue and hot iron for shrinking (not unlike monokote).

I just finished a bi-plane with Koverall and dope, am including a couple pics of it. All the other planes in the pics are covered with monokote.

Dave

alfredbmor

Hi all:
I have been busy covering my Dynaflite SE5a with Sig Koverall using Stix it, no problems by now, this is my first Koverall job. I will be finishing the covering soon and I am still lost on what kind of primer or paint should I use.
The fact is that I read at the Dynaflite SE5a thread that I could use Minwax water based poliuretane and then paint with acrylic water based paint. I will be usin glow fuel and I need a lot of info about the system that I should use.
I'd like to have a WWI finish one, not a high gloss one.
Please Help.
Thank you

Alfred.

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

While having used Koverall and Ceconite and woven plastic, adhesive backed fabric like Coverite, etc., whatever happened to real cheap Dacron dress liner or does knowledge of that material for model aircraft covering really make me appear ancient?[sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif]

bps

My Feedback: (3)

I am finishing a 1/4 scale Sig Clip Wing Cub modified to a three piece wing and covered with Koverall. I am using a latex product ModPodge I purchased at Michael's Craft Stores to adhere the fabric and then fill the weave and attatch it to the rest of the structure after shrinking the fabric. I just use water to thin it and clean up. Works great and no smell.

Best of luck with your project.

flicka5

My Feedback: (2)

Hey, that Cub and covering look great with a perfect covering job! What is this Hodgepoge material normally sold to do? Like a paper paste or cement ?

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

See ya'll later, gotta go to Michaels and buy some hodgepodge!! Will they know by name?
Edwin

Stickbuilder

The only issue with dress liner is that you need to make sure that the liner that you purchase is not the pre=shrunk kind. They sell both kinds, but the pre=shrunk dress liner will never tighten up. I once bought a full bolt of the stuff for something like 5 bucks, and giggled all the way home thinking about the deal I had scored. It would not shrink, so the little wife made out like a bandit, and I went back and paid full price for the right stuff.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

ramcfarland

My Feedback: (44)

Excellent infromation here glad I selected COVERAL and SIGS STIK IT got a Stinson ready to cover thanks for all the posters of positive input for Coveral I figured it was the trick now I believe.

bps

My Feedback: (3)

I must eat a little crow here. The name of the product is MOD PODGE P/N CS11302. Should have taken a closer look at the name before posting, my apologies.

The bottle says that it is used as "Waterbase sealer, glue and finish for all surfaces". I am pleased with the results.

Edwin

My Feedback: (2)

You are forgiven! <g>
Edwin

TrickyPig

This is a GREAT thread....I finished a scatch build twin trainer a couple months ago and used Sig Koverall.....I used Stix It with no problems.....
Sealed the fabric with Nitrate Dope - mixed in a little baby powder ( applied 2 coats - lightly sanded between coats)
Set aside for 3 weeks to off-gas.....primed with latex primer (light coat & light sand)....painted with Behr flat latex paint (2 coats - lightly sanded after 1st coat)
Set aside for 4 weeks to off-gas....sealed with semi-gloss polyurethane (spray can)

Latex primer & paint applied with spray gun set to 55 psi...I put a small shot off windsheild washer fluid in paint until it had a milky consistancy

Very big Koveral fan....

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_72...mpage_2/tm.htm

Chip_Mull

My Feedback: (1)

Randolph dope is available from F&M Enterprises along with Poly Tone products with NO hazmat shipping costs. F&M has an exclusive to develop the Poly Fiber method for modelers by modelers. Available at http://www.stits.com along with lots of Q&A on the web site. Contact us at [email protected] for Randolph or Poly Fiber color cards and price sheets.

For painting polyester fabric with dope use the Non-Tautening dope. All dope shrinks but Non-Tautening shrinks less. Use Nitrate dope first and then follow with Butyrate color.

For less problems with the paint peeling away with your trim colors, try the Poly Fiber method but DO NOT MIX the two methods.

huntermax3030

My Feedback: (3)

Question about Dacron dress liner. How to you tell (or what do you ask for) the “pre-shrunk” from the regular cloth?