Dave Presta

My Feedback: (3)

Should we expect every kit we decide to buy to be a proven safe, dependable, sound airframe that works as advertised when we pull it out of the box? I say yes. Is this alway's the case? Unfortunately not. It seems that sometimes manufacturers, in my opinion, are too eager to rush their product out into the public so they can be the first ones to have it out, and capitalize on the new product mojo and sell a bunch of kits before the next guy who is making one gets his out. We have seen this time and time again, but we still seem to rush out and get whats new before watching to see if it has proven itself to be a worthy kit. I have been guilty of this myself, but cant afford to be the crash test dummy, so now I just watch, wait, and see what (if any) problems surface out of every new kit that I am interested in. If I like it today, then I will either still like it next year or the problems will convince me to look somewhere else.

I have heard mention of BVM having problems with their kits too? Sure, anyone can have squaks in their product no matter how good they are, the big difference is that every time I have heard of BVM having an issue they have immediately came up with a solution for their customers.
I had a JMP T-33, still today one of my favorite flying planes. I had an issue with my gear doors opening up when I went too fast, this was at speeds the plane was not originally designed for. I called Tom Cook and he went to work on what we could do to keep them closed, came up with a solution, and it fixed the problem. This was not a design flaw, but still here is a manufacturer who cares about the success of his product.
Their are a few china manufacturers who have already been through the growing pains of horrible kits, and have powered through and learned from their mistakes and are now offering very good quality products for us to choose from. They have aircraft that are being flown successfully for years and I would feel comfortable spending my money on and putting my expensive gear inside. The key to moving forward is to admitting their mistakes and showing the steps they have taken to improve themselves. The company's who will never get any better are the ones who blame the customer over and over again and never take ownership for the bad parts. Its kinda like the r/c flyer who always blames his crashes on radio lockout, and never admits he just screwed up.
....But honestly, blaming china for a bad product is kinda like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad cheeseburger.

F15driver

My Feedback: (24)

The interesting thing about the JL kits is that their is no real consistency between the various models. The F-20 was my third JL kit, having previously owned an F-18 (sold it after 70+ flights) and I'm currently flying an F-22. These two models are constructed fairly well with only minor issues as they were being made airworthy. The F-20, however, was built extremely light with no carbon fiber anywhere other than in the landing gear/retract area. While light is good for many reasons, its not good if construction quality is sacrificed. It is only common sense that a critical area such as the elevator pivot shaft be made as strong as possible. This does not equate to a balsa mounting block.

To reiterate a comment I made in my earlier post, Camlex, the US dealer from whom I bought the F-20, has gone to bat for me with JL. They have been upfront and honest in trying to resolve this issue with JL. At the end of the day, however, the dealer can only do so much. They cannot be held responsible for a manufacturer who refuses to own up to its own shortcomings. Its sad that Camlex is an innocent victim in this whole affair. However, the JL people in China are not owing up to the fact that their construction of this airframe was inferior and not up to the ordinary standard of mercantibility. Their pat answer is that, and I quote " Please tell this customer, according to the picture, I don't think the responsibility is on us. Does he have further evidence to prove its a quality problem? We will review it further." With this kind of answer, will any picture make a difference? Included below are two further pictures that attest to what happens when things aren't built right, along with a picture of the F-20 prior to its maiden. Its sad, it was a beautiful airplane.

Shaun Evans

Ian,

Is that the F-20 you had at Arizona??

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

Yep, same one Shaun.

F15driver, where did you get pics of my plane???? For real, that is EXACTLY what mine looked like when it was over. I might have a photo on my phone I could pull down.

Shaun Evans

Bummer!

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

Your tellin me. No worse feeling than watching your airplane go in and knowing there is nothing you can do about it. If I bounced it on landing and cart wheeled it or something like that then I know who to blame, but something like this just sucks.

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

This is easy to solve...vote with your feet. Don't buy junk from junk purveyors. It seems that Jet Legend is putting out some real garbage lately from what has been posted...and is not standing by their mistakes. I know some guys who are building a T-45 and discovered the pins were not installed in one of the stabs on the jet while they were building it. The stab spun on the shaft while they were working on it so I would have to say it's a more common problem lately it seems.

Wanna teach 'em a lesson? Stop buying from them. Wanna teach the other junk dealers a lesson? Stop buying their crap and for sure stop crying when you pay 1/4 of what a Skybanger jet would cost and then it folds up like an Old Fart's card table with his Ugly Stick on it when the wind blows too hard on your first or second flight. I remember when I used to fly FB stuff and the gear pretty much never worked among other things. Their response to complaints: "Oh, so sorry" but they never did anything to fix the issues. All they cared about was getting the customers money and that was it. I got fed up and said no more.

Right now, I have one BVM jet and two Comp-Arfs. I don't think I will ever get another "China ARF"...except maybe a proven platform from Anton one day. I'm just not in the mood to mess with the junk jets anymore.

Beave

GSR

My Feedback: (145)

Now Now Ian- Yours did not look like F15s did. Yours looked MUCH worse!!!!! The shock wave is still traveling north.

F15driver

My Feedback: (24)

Ianobar,

Yes, the photos do look similar. Amazing what a little lack of attention to construction standards can do, isn't it? Like yours, all I could do is watch mine as it plowed into the ground and broke into hundreds of small pieces.

Rob
F15driver

dubd

Here's a video of Ian's F-20 going in. It's a shame that JL didn't step up on this.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCgGTNZ9yMM[/youtube]

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

Nice vid Dantely, way to polish a turd!!! It was a pretty nice take off though, I guess that's one way to look at it. Too bad you weren't zoomed in more to see the whole tail end of the plane flutter in that turn. Since the company I obtained it through isn't going to do anything about it I am going to contact Jet Legend directly and see if I can get through to them. I am not one to complain when the error is on my part but I will not stand idly by while a defect destroys my functional equipment and get NOTHING for it. That's it for me and China ARF's I think. I am going to stick to building my own designed airplanes and build them to be bullet proof!! A-6 incoming!!

high-flyer

Hi Guy,s
Sorry to hear about your losses.
I have a JL F20 with Jetcat 160 ready to test fly and this post is a concern. I tend to fly fast so it looks like i will put the test fly on hold untill i decide it is safe to fly. Please reply with any realistic options that will minimise the risk of elevator flutter ?
I have had heat issue,s as well that a heat shield has helped.
JL F20 Flyers, Please reply with feedback on your jets

Regards

John

dubd

Ian, Hopefully you can use the video footage to your advantage. How JL responds to you will determine if I ever buy a plane from them again. Looking forward to seeing the A-6!

John, I think you have to cut into your horizontal stab and inspect it. There is no way around it.

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

John, I had a 160 in mine as well. If you value your electronics at all I would seriously consider the info that has been presented here. I don't think it matters what size motor you use, the bottom line is that the design of the stabs is simply not good enough for normal flight. I was not droppin the hammer when mine went in so its not a speed issue. The decision is up to you though John but if it were mine, there is no way I would fly that plane, for me it would just not be worth the risk.

I just watched the video of the F-20 going in and before I never had the volume on, I must apologize to any little ears that may be listening, I was a little "heated".

Rider-60

My Feedback: (17)

4Sad to see these issues as JL planes have nice flying qualities, may be there is a poorly made batch as the F20 is not so new and it is the first time we hear this. I have a T45 and a F22, both of them with many flights on the clock and still going strong.
Hope they will improve their QC

Couch Potato

Hi Rob (F15driver),

Very sorry for your total loss and thanks for showing pics in post #21.

jeff sewell

My Feedback: (1)

I find it quite alarming that there have been such failures, particularly as JL have been reasonably good with quality and I have been happy to stand by their products. I have personally tested to destruction an F20 tailplane and found it to be quite durable whilst having a static load of about 35Kg applied at the leading and trailing edge whilst the shaft is clamped solid. Of course there is argument for a fatique test too but it's difficult to replicate...
On internal inspection I found the block to be quite solid and no play occurring in the shaft or 'drive'. I wonder whether this means inconsistency in manufacture where some customers are getting sub-standard components.
I'll be talking to JL about these problems and will not order any more jets until I am satisfied the problems are fixed.
That being said, it is easy to see why manufacturers have disclaimers on their products as once a customer receives the product, the manufacturer can no longer have any responsibility on the way the product is assembled or handled.
However, it seems there is some replication in the tailplane faults which would indicate a problem.
I am considering advising my F20 and F15 customers to mass balance the tailplanes as this may reduce the likelyhood of failure.

Not happy...

Jeff

RAPPTOR

My Feedback: (41)

[:@] i was rediong the pin hinges on the rudder. the more i worked on it ,the more it flexed.finally poped.. pealed it open.this is what i found..made a new one myself..they said a new one would be $38.00 .. i did not think it would be any better..

Eagleburger

Poor design and construction, simple as that. Wood will split along the grain every time, add a wedge....OMG, Sorry for the loses, but I am laughing right now.

olnico

FEJ is having exactly the same issue with some of their full flying elevators.
Some 1/5,5 F-16 have crashed due elevator pivot tube un-gluing during high speed pass.

I have some pictures of the elevator system looking exactly as this one:


The basic design is wrong here. The shaft shall not be slick but grooved longitudinally. Putting a torsion pin at the end of the shaft in a hard wood block is not enough.
I have sent at least two quality feedback letters to FEJ about the design problem and how to solve it. The only answer I received was: "thank you, we will look at it"
No other feedback, discussion, or demonstration of any kind of design change so far... This lack of feedback and two way communication is why I stopped cooperating with FEJ.

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND EVERY PERSON WHO BUYS THESE KITS TO XRAY EACH ELEVATOR TO CHECK HOW THE PIVOT TUBE IS GLUED AND DESIGNED.

It is very easy to do: next time you take a plane just go through an airport Xray gate with your stabilizers wrapped in craft paper.
The Xray operator will invariably ask you what it is. At this point he'll certainly let you watch his screen. Just explain what you have and what you need. I usually ask the operator what he sees around the elevator tube, and the guy is generally more than happy to demonstrate his skills and give you a detailed description of the internals...

On the big FEJ F-16, I added 4 half torsion pins along the tube length...

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Dantly,

Nice post script on the vid...never have truer words been written.

Beave

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

What is the experience of you guys with Global Jets modifying JL jets? I am putting together an F-18 pro from a kit, rather then the ARF. Global has added carbon fiber to a lot of areas and plywood through out. I can't tell about the rudders or elevators internally? All of the bulk heads are plywood and the elevator rigging seems extremely strong, just like a BVM F-16 that I had flown. PLease comment? Thanks! Dan

Kometfreak

Be very scared, the Chinese are going to be building full scale airliners and are building sub components for Boeing.

The solution is two fold, one quit buying their stuff, second don't buy alpha or beta releases. Perhaps when they figure out that the customers won't buy until some well known modeler in the USA has a couple of hundred of flights on one of their products things will change.

GOGGLES PIZANO

olnico..what type of glue is used there? sort of looks like a hotglue of some sort.also concerned with how smooth the glue appears in main hole for the shaft,shoild also be a rib going from the block to trailing edge to distribute forces.seems the structure is not up to snuff at all,guess the structural integrity suppose to lie in the skin.well this seems primetime for yellow acft and bvm to fill a nitch here.hey Shaun how bout an f20?

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

Sorry, I guess I speak for the hundreds (thousands?) who at one point chose to buy a JL kit rather than spend the extra $K's on other brands.
Have fun with your $5K kit!!