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How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
10-20-2004, 11:22 AM
#51
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: RCadmin
I've flown many digital hitec's, JR and futaba's all with zero failure. The only major servo I have never tried is airtronics. Futaba 9252's, JR 8411's and 8611's, Hitec 5925/5945's and others in their lines.
I always wonder if a servo fails of any kind how much of that is due to improper setup. Also how many of these cases where a servo looks like it failed only after looking at the post wreckage. Probably lots of pilots blame crashes on equipment failure, interference or something else other than pilot error. I wonder as a sidebar how many crashes in general that are blamed on equipment are really pilot or builder error
I've flown many digital hitec's, JR and futaba's all with zero failure. The only major servo I have never tried is airtronics. Futaba 9252's, JR 8411's and 8611's, Hitec 5925/5945's and others in their lines.
I always wonder if a servo fails of any kind how much of that is due to improper setup. Also how many of these cases where a servo looks like it failed only after looking at the post wreckage. Probably lots of pilots blame crashes on equipment failure, interference or something else other than pilot error. I wonder as a sidebar how many crashes in general that are blamed on equipment are really pilot or builder error
A-M-E-N...
If a servo fails it usually is one of the following:
Dirty Power / Low power
Noise / Poor Connections
Installation / Rigging / Linkage
Improper Maintenance (i.e. gear wear)
Old Age
Funny how those who have one failure are very vocal about it, yet those of us who fly for years and years without an incident don't need to say a thing..... Frankly, I'de rather spend my time making sure the conditions above are not in our setups....
DP
10-20-2004, 11:30 AM
#52
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: backfire
Just curious; what are you doing with the ohm meter?
Just curious; what are you doing with the ohm meter?
One uses an AMMETER to monitor current draw during the setup process so that we can be sure that the setup is not binding. Actually - I use the servo "whine" as my guide .. its just as accurate.
If he used an Ohmmeter.. that could explain why he though his setup was OK
DP
10-20-2004, 12:26 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Do you guys really believe there is ANY difference in the quality of the COMPONENTS that go into a JR or Hitec or Futaba servo?? It's all just metal/plastic gears, an electric motor, a pot or two, and some IC's. I promise you there is no way these guys are manufacturing the majority of these components in-house. They buy what they need from other mfg's....and more than likely JR/Hitec/Futuba use some of the same vendors. The only difference is the way they mix up all the parts...which in the end is a very minor difference. Otherwise JR servos would only work with JR rx's, Hitec only with Hitec rx's, ect. There is a standard as to how these servos operate.. everything else is just fluff to get us to buy their product.
ORIGINAL: Leardriver
If you want to use that as an excuse for the Motors and ICs burning up in the servo (Hitecs tech report..not mine) that is your choice. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not valid. That is completely your choice. Oh yea, Hitec noted zero physical damage to the servos.
If you want to risk your $3000-$8000 plane to what many of us feel is substandard equipment because you trying to save a few bucks (not many when you consider the overall cost of these planes) it's your choice.
If you want to use that as an excuse for the Motors and ICs burning up in the servo (Hitecs tech report..not mine) that is your choice. Go ahead and bury your head in the sand and pretend it's not valid. That is completely your choice. Oh yea, Hitec noted zero physical damage to the servos.
If you want to risk your $3000-$8000 plane to what many of us feel is substandard equipment because you trying to save a few bucks (not many when you consider the overall cost of these planes) it's your choice.
10-20-2004, 12:27 PM
#54
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
so where did I mention that the failures were Hitec???
What I find interesting is that in nearly all of these threads, somewhere along the line it's discovered that a connection was loose causing poor signal/power to the servo...or that the servos had been involved in a previous crash....or there was a hard landing recently....almost always there's a REASON for the servo failure. I have yet to see anyone PROVE that the servo just failed all by itself with no outside help.....no matter what the brand.
In both instances that I have witnessed a "servo failure" (one of which was my plane that I crashed)...it was later determined that something else led to the servo failure. In my case, an extension vibrated loose, intermittent signal to the servo and the servo went hard-over....stupid mistake, lesson learned....haven't had a problem since. In the second instance the individual later remembered that he had been hovering over a pond the week before and had dunked the tail a little too far the last flight. A week later, and several more flights and that servo gave up the fight. Not exactly a big surprise....but again, lesson learned.
In both instances that I have witnessed a "servo failure" (one of which was my plane that I crashed)...it was later determined that something else led to the servo failure. In my case, an extension vibrated loose, intermittent signal to the servo and the servo went hard-over....stupid mistake, lesson learned....haven't had a problem since. In the second instance the individual later remembered that he had been hovering over a pond the week before and had dunked the tail a little too far the last flight. A week later, and several more flights and that servo gave up the fight. Not exactly a big surprise....but again, lesson learned.
ORIGINAL: Mike Rojas
Once again,amazing this stuff only happens to people with Hitec!!
Once again,amazing this stuff only happens to people with Hitec!!
10-20-2004, 12:58 PM
#55
RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: desertpig
A-M-E-N...
If a servo fails it usually is one of the following:
Dirty Power / Low power
Noise / Poor Connections
Installation / Rigging / Linkage
Improper Maintenance (i.e. gear wear)
Old Age
Funny how those who have one failure are very vocal about it, yet those of us who fly for years and years without an incident don't need to say a thing..... Frankly, I'de rather spend my time making sure the conditions above are not in our setups....
DP
A-M-E-N...
If a servo fails it usually is one of the following:
Dirty Power / Low power
Noise / Poor Connections
Installation / Rigging / Linkage
Improper Maintenance (i.e. gear wear)
Old Age
Funny how those who have one failure are very vocal about it, yet those of us who fly for years and years without an incident don't need to say a thing..... Frankly, I'de rather spend my time making sure the conditions above are not in our setups....
DP
10-20-2004, 01:04 PM
#56
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
I really wish hitec would give us some straight answers and maybe do a study of their own to disprove the lack of reliability of their products. To me that is what we are all looking for, otherwise some people will cut their losses and spend the extra 30-50.00 a servo and make the switch to another brand of servos.
10-20-2004, 01:06 PM
#57
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Marc you were there...and you know better. There was not scratch on them! Enough said on that. I know Hitec is a big supporter of RCU and have also been getting totally trashed on the forum for quite a while so I spose you are somewhat obligated to defend them. I am curious...what servos are in your Wildhare giles 202? Ummmm....JR 8411 and 8611 as I recall. I guess the price was right[X(][X(]. If ya want to say the prior crash damaged the servos go right ahead, but it is wrong. The worked without incident right up to the point that they didn't. They were NOT damaged.
Paul
Paul
10-20-2004, 01:14 PM
#58
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Paul,
If you must then. There are some who say that you setup the servos wrong and that even you realized this. If your servos are fighthing each other it would be no surpise that they would burn out. If this wasn't the case the fact that a servo does not have a physical scratch on it does not mean it was not damaged in a crash. A control surface on impact could have put great force on the gears and there are other stresses that occur on impact that might not scratch the outer case.
The 8411's on my Giles are there because JR sponsored that airplane plain and simple. Do I trust the 8411's and 8611's? Yes. Do I trust all the 5945's, 5925's and 5975HB's in my other planes? Yes. Have any of my Futaba, Hitec or JR servos ever failed? Nope. Never have. Do I log 50x more flight time then you do each season?
Again maybe yours were or were not damaged but there is some suspicion among many around you that these servos were ganged together and incorrectly setup by you and thus caused them to fail. I won't name who these people are but I will say it isn't just one or two who know you. Some things you said to certain people right after the lockup and investigation might have now come back to haunt Sorry.
If you must then. There are some who say that you setup the servos wrong and that even you realized this. If your servos are fighthing each other it would be no surpise that they would burn out. If this wasn't the case the fact that a servo does not have a physical scratch on it does not mean it was not damaged in a crash. A control surface on impact could have put great force on the gears and there are other stresses that occur on impact that might not scratch the outer case.
The 8411's on my Giles are there because JR sponsored that airplane plain and simple. Do I trust the 8411's and 8611's? Yes. Do I trust all the 5945's, 5925's and 5975HB's in my other planes? Yes. Have any of my Futaba, Hitec or JR servos ever failed? Nope. Never have. Do I log 50x more flight time then you do each season?
Again maybe yours were or were not damaged but there is some suspicion among many around you that these servos were ganged together and incorrectly setup by you and thus caused them to fail. I won't name who these people are but I will say it isn't just one or two who know you. Some things you said to certain people right after the lockup and investigation might have now come back to haunt
Sorry.
10-20-2004, 01:19 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
What do you measure with an Ohmmeter? Resistance? Does the resistance go up or down when there is binding? Just curious.
10-20-2004, 01:22 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: canavanbob
What do you measure with an Ohmmeter? Resistance? Does the resistance go up or down when there is binding? Just curious.
What do you measure with an Ohmmeter? Resistance? Does the resistance go up or down when there is binding? Just curious.
10-20-2004, 02:58 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Actually it was speculation on my part and I will tell you EXACTLY what it was........I started to second guess myself why these "brand new (9-10 flights) servos would fail as such. I put in about 2% right rudder to throttle mix at 1/2 stick and above in an effort to "fine tune" the up lines. After the servos locked out I started to second guess whether or not I had "linked" the two servos in the TX or not.....as it turns out I did! What I did observe when installing the new servos was a tiny little bit of lead/lag between the two servos because I used a pmix and had one servo in ch4 and the other in ch8 (I think)..this is due to the way the reciever sequences the inputs (as I am told), mainly ch1 first and so on. It was speculated by some that was the cause of the failure! I don't buy it because guys have been setting stuff up like that for years....way before matchboxes and all and we didn't have the failure rates we have we these. Of course we were not using Hitec than either. And IF that was the case all it proves is that Hitecs are the most tempermental servos going and cannot take even the slightest Resistance
So Marc, what you are implying is that I am a sloppy builder with very little concept of what I am doing? Again...you know me and should know what I am like by now. If not well than what can I say. And yes you do fly more than I do, but lets not compare flying foamy's and such to 35% models. The effort and care to do so is quite a bit more than what you are stick banging around. Some of us don't have the option to go fly every single nice day that rolls around. I'm not slamming for you for that but please don't try to compare apples to oranges. You have what.....5 flights total in the two years you have owned that Giles because as you put it "it's too much work" to go fly it.
Oh yes to correct myself for the smart ass that was so helpful in pointing out my mistake....it should be called an Ammeter. Thank you, it should really help the next time. I'm am quite sure that all the guys that have had Hitec failures will be making that correction and we should therefore consider this issue shut! We have found the root cause! It 's an AMMETER! Ok now I have had enough of this thread and am done wasting my time.
The setup in question:
So Marc, what you are implying is that I am a sloppy builder with very little concept of what I am doing? Again...you know me and should know what I am like by now. If not well than what can I say. And yes you do fly more than I do, but lets not compare flying foamy's and such to 35% models. The effort and care to do so is quite a bit more than what you are stick banging around. Some of us don't have the option to go fly every single nice day that rolls around. I'm not slamming for you for that but please don't try to compare apples to oranges. You have what.....5 flights total in the two years you have owned that Giles because as you put it "it's too much work" to go fly it.
Oh yes to correct myself for the smart ass that was so helpful in pointing out my mistake....it should be called an Ammeter. Thank you, it should really help the next time. I'm am quite sure that all the guys that have had Hitec failures will be making that correction and we should therefore consider this issue shut! We have found the root cause! It 's an AMMETER! Ok now I have had enough of this thread and am done wasting my time.
The setup in question:
10-20-2004, 03:02 PM
#64
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
You gotta love when guys take it personal
Paul,
Why not try the 8611's using the same exact mix setup that you did on the hitec's to compare apples to apples. If they don't fail without the matchboxes or equalizer then maybe you have a case. However without testing that way your method is not scientific and you are not drawing a fair conclusion based on your methodology of testing. Since they are not programmable this is not possible so you cannot draw a result from an apple to apple test I guess.
The lead/lag may very well have been the cause and so could the crash. You just don't have enough data to say that those were the reasons or if it was just a simple failure without any relation whatsoever to those issues. My problem is that I've done many studies in college and after and we deal with the scientific method and statistics. You are not using any generally accepted methods to draw your conclusions. You were bold enough to use just mixes on the hitec's so why not use it on the other servos in the same way? I don't know if the airtronics are programmable but if they aren't then you can't even compare this to test the theory and thus cannot draw any reasonable conclusions.
What you want to test is whether the mix you used could be the cause of failure.
I'm not saying that the mix, setup, or crash were the cause and I am NOT saying that it wasn't. What I am saying though is that nobody has proper data to draw any conclusion. You have made conclusions based on incomplete data, testing and samples. That is fine if it makes you feel better but your conclusions are a red herring to the real facts which are unknown to all (even you).
marc
Paul,
Why not try the 8611's using the same exact mix setup that you did on the hitec's to compare apples to apples. If they don't fail without the matchboxes or equalizer then maybe you have a case. However without testing that way your method is not scientific and you are not drawing a fair conclusion based on your methodology of testing. Since they are not programmable this is not possible so you cannot draw a result from an apple to apple test I guess.
The lead/lag may very well have been the cause and so could the crash. You just don't have enough data to say that those were the reasons or if it was just a simple failure without any relation whatsoever to those issues. My problem is that I've done many studies in college and after and we deal with the scientific method and statistics. You are not using any generally accepted methods to draw your conclusions. You were bold enough to use just mixes on the hitec's so why not use it on the other servos in the same way? I don't know if the airtronics are programmable but if they aren't then you can't even compare this to test the theory and thus cannot draw any reasonable conclusions.
What you want to test is whether the mix you used could be the cause of failure.
I'm not saying that the mix, setup, or crash were the cause and I am NOT saying that it wasn't. What I am saying though is that nobody has proper data to draw any conclusion. You have made conclusions based on incomplete data, testing and samples. That is fine if it makes you feel better but your conclusions are a red herring to the real facts which are unknown to all (even you).
marc
10-20-2004, 03:05 PM
#65
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Lets talk about cool power verse wildcat............Just kidding let's not go there. LOL
10-20-2004, 03:10 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Actually Marc if mine was the only one than I could agree with you, but do a search on your own site and it is just staggering the amount of threads you find. Mine is not the only failure that I personally know of. And the others were not "ganged". And the reason I used an equalizer on the servos was because I originally thought i was going to put the "new" 5945s back in the plane. I was afraid of how "fragile" they are. The airtronics 94358 have performed very well and are staying as I believe they are a very robust and basically bullet proof servo.
Paul
Paul
10-20-2004, 03:19 PM
#67
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: Furyflyer2
You measure AMP draw, you're servo should draw 0+/- amps at center, and full end of travel.
ORIGINAL: canavanbob
What do you measure with an Ohmmeter? Resistance? Does the resistance go up or down when there is binding? Just curious.
What do you measure with an Ohmmeter? Resistance? Does the resistance go up or down when there is binding? Just curious.
You can also judge the amount of current draw by the amount of "singing"... the more noise, the more draw. Once you have trained you ear you don't need a meter... and you can "see" the current at the field without having to get out the meter every time..
DP
10-20-2004, 03:19 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Sorry to be a "smart ass" and pointing out your error. I realise you are not in a good mood to be teased. My apology.
10-20-2004, 03:21 PM
#69
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: Leardriver
Actually Marc if mine was the only one than I could agree with you, but do a search on your own site and it is just staggering the amount of threads you find.
Paul
Actually Marc if mine was the only one than I could agree with you, but do a search on your own site and it is just staggering the amount of threads you find.
Paul
A quick search for 8411 failure yields 84 records
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/sear...mitbutton=+OK+
A quick search for 5945 failure yields 69 records
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/sear...mitbutton=+OK+
10-20-2004, 03:25 PM
#70
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
If you do a [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/searchpro.asp?phrase=5945+failure&author=&forumid= ALL&topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&tim efilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&min Rank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+]search [/link] for single posts containing 5945 and failure you get 118 posts
If you do a [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/searchpro.asp?phrase=8411+failure&author=&forumid= ALL&topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&tim efilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&min Rank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+]search [/link] for single posts containing 8411 and failure you get 135 posts
If you are drawing conclusions about failures they seem equivalent based on the thread and post chatter here.
If you do a [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/searchpro.asp?phrase=8411+failure&author=&forumid= ALL&topicreply=both&message=both&timeframe=%3E&tim efilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&min Rank=0&sortMethod=d&submitbutton=+OK+]search [/link] for single posts containing 8411 and failure you get 135 posts
If you are drawing conclusions about failures they seem equivalent based on the thread and post chatter here.
10-20-2004, 03:25 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Going back to you Mike about what you said...Can I afford to have the 40% go in? Yes, I can...my dad would very much so help me. Why should I be afraid? These servos are setup fine. I'm pretty sure if I can't hear buzzing or humming at center and at full deflection then my servos are setup just right. Yes I will take them out after many many flights to change for new ones. :-)
Dan
Dan
10-20-2004, 03:44 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
Hey Marc...just did a search on "8411 failure". Guess what word word was associated with failure all but a handful of times......Hitec.
Ok, I really am done with this thread now. God I hate it when I waste so much time on a point! Oh yea, Canavanbob...sorry to snap at you. No hard feelings...this is supposed to be fun.
Paul
Ok, I really am done with this thread now. God I hate it when I waste so much time on a point! Oh yea, Canavanbob...sorry to snap at you. No hard feelings...this is supposed to be fun.
Paul
10-20-2004, 03:58 PM
#73
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: Leardriver
Hey Marc...just did a search on "8411 failure". Guess what word word was associated with failure all but a handful of times......Hitec.
Paul
Hey Marc...just did a search on "8411 failure". Guess what word word was associated with failure all but a handful of times......Hitec.
Paul
I personally don't think the failure rate is significantly high on any of the major radio manufacturers to where it is something I'd lose sleep over. I would put JR/Futaba/Hitec in any of my planes without a 2nd thought or worry. Everyone needs to do their own due diligence and what they feel comfortable with. That is why we have more than one choice in the hobby.
I think it can all be a matter of what you tune yourself into. If you think JR's fail you tend to look everywhere for that and tune yourself into that "noise". If you think hitec's fail you do the same and look for signs of failure everywhere and ignore signs of others failing. It is just like when you get a new car or are shopping for a particular car. All of a sudden you now "notice" these cars on the road more often where before you rarely noticed. Humans are deletion creatures. We block out most of what comes in and filter accordingly. Once your filter is set a certain way that is the way it works.
10-20-2004, 04:17 PM
#74
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
ORIGINAL: Leardriver
There was not scratch on them! Enough said on that. They were NOT damaged.
Paul
There was not scratch on them! Enough said on that. They were NOT damaged.
Paul
Not a scratch on the servo? Is that a reliable determining factor for whether a servo is 100% functional? How many people here have servos where the gears stripped, motor failed, ic board failed, wiring failed and the servo from the outside looks perfect? Probably more than 80% to 90% if I had to hazard a guess. Anybody ever strip gears out but the servo looks perfect from the outside just as one example? Of course.
Does anyone here use the aesthetic condition of whether a case is scratched or damaged as the final determining factor of whether a servo might be faulty? I had to point this out because that statement of whether your servos were scratched or not cannot be the determining factor as to their post crash health.
10-20-2004, 04:33 PM
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RE: How many failures are their with Hitec verse JR servos?
I guess nobody liked my attempt at humor, oh well.
As I have stated before, and I believe to be true, based on my own observations;
Hitec digital servos need a good signal. If they are not getting a good signal very strange and weird things can and sometimes will happen. JR and maybe Futaba (limited experience with them, mostly bad) will operate on a marginal signal before they quit working. My standard test now is to try programing the servo thru the extension that will be used with servo in place. If it will not program, there is something wrong with the extension or the connection. If the servo will program it means I can look forward to good reliable use.
Ed M.
As I have stated before, and I believe to be true, based on my own observations;
Hitec digital servos need a good signal. If they are not getting a good signal very strange and weird things can and sometimes will happen. JR and maybe Futaba (limited experience with them, mostly bad) will operate on a marginal signal before they quit working. My standard test now is to try programing the servo thru the extension that will be used with servo in place. If it will not program, there is something wrong with the extension or the connection. If the servo will program it means I can look forward to good reliable use.
Ed M.