why use a y harness?
04-24-2007, 03:11 AM
#51
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RE: why use a y harness?
here we go again with the high and mighty attitudes 
!!i still say i have found what i wanted to know and that is that most boats do not benefit from a y harness,race boats maybe ,but most people do not race they run for fun and ive seen plenty running big boats on here and with no y harnes and they seem to manage fine .
!!i still say i have found what i wanted to know and that is that most boats do not benefit from a y harness,race boats maybe ,but most people do not race they run for fun and ive seen plenty running big boats on here and with no y harnes and they seem to manage fine .
04-24-2007, 04:05 AM
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RE: why use a y harness?
These guys must have been born knowing everything about everything, and never once asked a question or doubted an answer they had been given , I have a couple of questions as i want to learn,
Flabum you mentioned a heavy duty Y piece, i take it, you mean thicker wires ? i could be wrong, but i would like an explanation if/when i am, as i thought electric would travel through the same in a thinner wire Y piece, but the thinner one would get warm when used, but not restrict power? i did use a heavy duty Y piece in my tests, and did use welded tag batteries,
MrMikeG not sure what you was on about, when you said solder a switch into the Y piece ?
pictures of my heavy duty Y piece wires and not heavy duty Y piece wires (thin wires at top not heavy duty) and one of the welded tag batteries, Sorry they aint great pictures.
Flabum you mentioned a heavy duty Y piece, i take it, you mean thicker wires ? i could be wrong, but i would like an explanation if/when i am, as i thought electric would travel through the same in a thinner wire Y piece, but the thinner one would get warm when used, but not restrict power? i did use a heavy duty Y piece in my tests, and did use welded tag batteries,
MrMikeG not sure what you was on about, when you said solder a switch into the Y piece ?
pictures of my heavy duty Y piece wires and not heavy duty Y piece wires (thin wires at top not heavy duty) and one of the welded tag batteries, Sorry they aint great pictures.
04-24-2007, 06:16 AM
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RE: why use a y harness?
It's common elecrtical knowledge. The heavier the wire, the more amperage they can flow. If a wire heats up, it becomes a resistor.
Batteries with bars welded to them rather than wires also deliver more amperage thereby reducing voltage drop.
Conducter size matters hugely, every electrician knows this.
Batteries with bars welded to them rather than wires also deliver more amperage thereby reducing voltage drop.
Conducter size matters hugely, every electrician knows this.
04-24-2007, 06:29 AM
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RE: why use a y harness?
Thanx Flabum ,yup i got the point with the thicker wires and welded batteries, and thats what i used in the tests, not all the people on here are electricians and some of us need explanations to things, and that makes the learning easier,
Mike G, or anybody. Any info on the switch on the Y piece/harness would be helpful?
QUOTE: from Mike G in an earlier post
If it is a money thing just solder your own switch into the Y harness, save heaps! Y harness $6, water proof switch $3, knowing I have the best = priceless
i cant work that part out ????
Mike G, or anybody. Any info on the switch on the Y piece/harness would be helpful?
QUOTE: from Mike G in an earlier post
If it is a money thing just solder your own switch into the Y harness, save heaps! Y harness $6, water proof switch $3, knowing I have the best = priceless
i cant work that part out ????
04-24-2007, 06:42 AM
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RE: why use a y harness?
its common knowledge to those who know electrics but like ive said if you dont question the whys and where fors we might all as well be sheep!!.i asked the questions as i doubted it would work i have yet to see a significant improvement in performance by using one as regards the test dave did of the voltage and of ricks test with the scales.in fact ricks test showed without the y piece there was a slight improvement so once again this throws up the question of why bother?.basicly the only thing i can see to improve performance that i can see working is the better battery packs .i think the use of a y lead is still questionable or at least to me going by the tests done.i wonder how many of you have even tried running a boat without one? seems you all just follow what someone tells you .well id rather get all the facts and make my own mind up .thats why ive asked and questioned if that bothers you then dont reply simple as that.ive now got all the answers i needed so once again thanks to everyone who contributed.
04-24-2007, 04:15 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
Mart,
Funny how you argued with us till you were blue in the face about Dave's 7 hp Zen yet you never ran one or even seen one. Now you are here doubting even his words.
Funny how you argued with us till you were blue in the face about Dave's 7 hp Zen yet you never ran one or even seen one. Now you are here doubting even his words.
04-24-2007, 04:26 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
lol i argued with the attitudes of some including you!! and there you go again proving my point i have not argued with anyone about this subject ive questioned the use of the y lead and i think facts speak for themselves..005 more torque without one to me is proof ,and i trust rick.funny though that when someone questions things he gets acused of arguing which is not correct or right.people are forever saying if you dont use a y harness your voltage will be reduced via the rx to 4.8 volts which has been proved not to be the case .also it was shown that the torque acheived is not reduced by not using one but actually was higher on 3 diff types of rx.i asked if the y harness did what everyone was saying it did and it seems possibly not or at least the benefits are not as high as we were led to beleive.
04-24-2007, 04:57 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
ORIGINAL: DaveMarles
Thats no myth and I'll tell you why and give you the results. No1 is I've tried it in several boats where rudder power is critical and it does make a significant difference. Perhaps many people wouldnt notice a difference or wouldnt need the advantage but I do.
No 2 . To get the best rudder servo performance you need to be using the correct Y lead and thats one with heavy duty wires and very short overall length of ca 70mm . The battery pack must be a good quality 5 cell welded pack nicad or NIMH. The switch assembly for least power consumption must be a heavy duty type such as the expensive Futaba one with thick wires for digital servos costs about 18 GBP part number FUTM4385. The Y lead allows the supply of a higher voltage to the servo when its under load. I did detailed torque and voltage drop tests a while ago and saw there was a major difference. I just set up a quick test a few minutes ago in my workshop and did it like this :
I put a volt meter across the red and black servo wires on my 13 kg torque KO 2174 analogue rudder servo. I plugged the servo into my Futaba 136F receiver ( correctly stated as having a bus connector across each polarity of sockets in the rx.) and plugged the switch lead into the RX. With no load the reading was 6.5 volts. I then applied the maximum load possible on the rudder and the voltage dropped to 5.7 volts. I then connected via the Y lead and applied the same load and voltage read 6.1 volts.
G.S.M.
Thats no myth and I'll tell you why and give you the results. No1 is I've tried it in several boats where rudder power is critical and it does make a significant difference. Perhaps many people wouldnt notice a difference or wouldnt need the advantage but I do.
No 2 . To get the best rudder servo performance you need to be using the correct Y lead and thats one with heavy duty wires and very short overall length of ca 70mm . The battery pack must be a good quality 5 cell welded pack nicad or NIMH. The switch assembly for least power consumption must be a heavy duty type such as the expensive Futaba one with thick wires for digital servos costs about 18 GBP part number FUTM4385. The Y lead allows the supply of a higher voltage to the servo when its under load. I did detailed torque and voltage drop tests a while ago and saw there was a major difference. I just set up a quick test a few minutes ago in my workshop and did it like this :
I put a volt meter across the red and black servo wires on my 13 kg torque KO 2174 analogue rudder servo. I plugged the servo into my Futaba 136F receiver ( correctly stated as having a bus connector across each polarity of sockets in the rx.) and plugged the switch lead into the RX. With no load the reading was 6.5 volts. I then applied the maximum load possible on the rudder and the voltage dropped to 5.7 volts. I then connected via the Y lead and applied the same load and voltage read 6.1 volts.
G.S.M.
Just for in case you missed it. If you notice the last paragraph, he lost 1 volt running the servo thru the radio. That is a huge voltage drop. That's losing 16% of your voltage to the servo. This prooves there is resistance in the reciever which also slows the servo. Then he said he had a voltage drop of .4 volts using the y-harness which translates to about 7% voltage drop. I think the numbers speak for themselves.
Like I said, seems funny you are now questioning his words along with all the other experienced racers and builders here.
04-24-2007, 04:59 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
Mart, you believe Ricks test because it goes along with what you think is correct, nothing to do with reality. You are entitled to your opinion but you don't know whats best and thats plain to see. As far as I'm concerned Ricks test is flawed. It cannot have been done accurately and thats nothing against Rick but his test defies the realities of what actually happens in a boat that needs high servo power and it defies the laws of physics. I'm sure he must have missed something in his tests. Its OK saying that a Y lead was used and it had thick wires but obviously something was not correct in his test.
04-24-2007, 05:02 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
funny how your quoting daves findings as regards voltage? yet you choose to ignore ricks test results using scales to measure the troque which show the oposite effect.im not saying daves figures are wrong im saying ricks test shows a diff result so how can you explain that?.and dave what you just said is totally unfair ricks test is just as fair as yours in my book so how can you explain his findings.
his test is flawed but youres wasnt? now whos seeing what he wants?anyway like i said several posts ago i have what i was looking for and i thank you for trying to clear a few things up.
his test is flawed but youres wasnt? now whos seeing what he wants?anyway like i said several posts ago i have what i was looking for and i thank you for trying to clear a few things up.
04-24-2007, 05:19 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
martno1fan
You basically told those that run actual race boats in this thread that they don't know what they are talking about because your right and they are wrong. This is you who don't own or run a race boat. If that's not the way you meant to come across then perhaps you need to re-read what you have posted.
As far as I am concerned, you are a forum Troll. In a previous thread you started sprouting off how I was wrong about running in a Zenoah engine. This is you that doesn't even own a Zenoah.
All the advice you give here in your 3000+ posts is mostly based on what you have read about and not what you have done in the real world.
And no, this is not a "high and mighty attitude". Your talking about a subject that relates to race boats not your weedeater sport boat but when people try and tell you about race boats require more robust equipment, you say your boat is big and doesn't need it so no one does.
You are like my teenage Son - He is always right (until he realises that he is in trouble and needs Dads help).
You basically told those that run actual race boats in this thread that they don't know what they are talking about because your right and they are wrong. This is you who don't own or run a race boat. If that's not the way you meant to come across then perhaps you need to re-read what you have posted.
As far as I am concerned, you are a forum Troll. In a previous thread you started sprouting off how I was wrong about running in a Zenoah engine. This is you that doesn't even own a Zenoah.
All the advice you give here in your 3000+ posts is mostly based on what you have read about and not what you have done in the real world.
And no, this is not a "high and mighty attitude". Your talking about a subject that relates to race boats not your weedeater sport boat but when people try and tell you about race boats require more robust equipment, you say your boat is big and doesn't need it so no one does.
You are like my teenage Son - He is always right (until he realises that he is in trouble and needs Dads help).
04-24-2007, 05:25 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
im sure you did dave no worries on that score ,im also sure rick did his too.all i wanted to know is if it worked and it seems it does for you ,im trying to learn things here thats why im asking questions im not looking for arguments .im not one to follow the crowd ill leave that to sheep id rather be shown the facts and then decide from there.i do appreciate you doing the test and like ive said what diif there was wasnt no where near as much as some said it would be .i appreciate small percentages can mean a lot in your situation as a racer but to a sports user id say its not that important wether the boats doing 35 or 55 mph.
04-24-2007, 05:28 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
ORIGINAL: wayneuk01
Some hitec servos eg 805bb require this set up depending on receiver type it does state if its a non b.e.c type then its ok to plug directly into the receiver would there be any advantage to using a y lead on a non b.e.c type receiver i beleave the specktrum i have (dx3) is a non b.e.c so pluging straight into the receiver is ok
Some hitec servos eg 805bb require this set up depending on receiver type it does state if its a non b.e.c type then its ok to plug directly into the receiver would there be any advantage to using a y lead on a non b.e.c type receiver i beleave the specktrum i have (dx3) is a non b.e.c so pluging straight into the receiver is ok
04-24-2007, 05:32 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
whatever you say john read my posts again and see ,it was me started the thread to find things out i have not told anyone they dont know what they are talking about . and as for the running in thing was i the only one who told you all 2 strokes need running in?.also i have never mentioned race boats i asked why a y lead works and if it does.seems your the one whos spat his dummy out mate just because i dont agree with what you say now that is funny.personal attacks are not needed ,but i guess thats the only way you can comunicate.
04-24-2007, 05:51 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
ORIGINAL: martno1fan
i appreciate small percentages can mean a lot in your situation as a racer but to a sports user id say its not that important wether the boats doing 35 or 55 mph.
i appreciate small percentages can mean a lot in your situation as a racer but to a sports user id say its not that important wether the boats doing 35 or 55 mph.
You were asking a question as to why Y-harnesses are needed and we answered. You kept questioning us even after we prooved there is a difference. Nobody is personally attacking you, only pointing out that you question what we have already have tried and are using. We are, however, pointing out to you that you are in it as a fun sport (for now) and you really may not require the level of perfection the racers and serious builders require and demand of themselves. I say "for now" because soon, you may become competitive (god save us all
) and you will require some good, solid adviceWhich is what we are trying to give.
Truly, there is no hard feelings here, but please, don't piss off the experienced people here......
04-24-2007, 06:01 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
he he he mart you in trouble again?
john, mart is one of the good guys in here i love him to bits he,s sound and he was sceptical about the y lead and having said that he might have had a zen in the past.
i own a zen and he knows more than me about them so lighten up this is a fun thing were all doing not some battle ground lol.....................Pete
john, mart is one of the good guys in here i love him to bits he,s sound and he was sceptical about the y lead and having said that he might have had a zen in the past.
i own a zen and he knows more than me about them so lighten up this is a fun thing were all doing not some battle ground lol.....................Pete
04-24-2007, 06:02 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
flabum i have not said anyone is wrong i have asked questions etc, two tests were done and both showed diff results .i allways said from the start if the diff is small as daves test showed i wouldnt bother using one.ricks test showed that both ways worked equally i dont think thats me calling anyone a liar here?.ive said it till im blue in the face i thank everyone whos contributed but a few guys have taken things personally god knows why, i have then been called names so yes i do take that very personaly.once again it seesm we cant question or disagree with certain people so i now wish id not bothered asking in the first place.i will definately think twice before i get involved in any more of these discusions from now on.what started out as an intersting thread to find out the facts has once again descended into chaos because certain people dont like peole who question them.im done with this place now im not staying to be insulted and victimised for daring to question things.
04-24-2007, 06:05 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
Hi,
In saying all of that, it seems that Martins boat as much (Or maybe more) than anyone's currently needs a very high amount of torque to control the rudder.
G
In saying all of that, it seems that Martins boat as much (Or maybe more) than anyone's currently needs a very high amount of torque to control the rudder.
G
04-24-2007, 06:05 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
ORIGINAL: pete_486
he he he mart you in trouble again?
john, mart is one of the good guys in here i love him to bits he,s sound and he was sceptical about the y lead and having said that he might have had a zen in the past.
i own a zen and he knows more than me about them so lighten up this is a fun thing were all doing not some battle ground lol.....................Pete
he he he mart you in trouble again?
john, mart is one of the good guys in here i love him to bits he,s sound and he was sceptical about the y lead and having said that he might have had a zen in the past.
i own a zen and he knows more than me about them so lighten up this is a fun thing were all doing not some battle ground lol.....................Pete
04-24-2007, 06:07 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
One last thought and I'm thru with this thread....
Nobody here talked of response time. Servos are rated with torque and response time. The higher torque and faster response is rated at full 6 volts. When you have voltage drop, response time also drops. A 16% drop in voltage also means a 16% drop in response time which can be devasting in a race. The faster you go, the more response time is important. Poor response time at 60 -70 mph will put you into a bouy, or worse, into a competitor.
Nobody here talked of response time. Servos are rated with torque and response time. The higher torque and faster response is rated at full 6 volts. When you have voltage drop, response time also drops. A 16% drop in voltage also means a 16% drop in response time which can be devasting in a race. The faster you go, the more response time is important. Poor response time at 60 -70 mph will put you into a bouy, or worse, into a competitor.
04-24-2007, 06:14 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
ORIGINAL: martno1fan
thanks for the kind words pete but im done with this site for a while im not hanging around to be called names .
ORIGINAL: pete_486
he he he mart you in trouble again?
john, mart is one of the good guys in here i love him to bits he,s sound and he was sceptical about the y lead and having said that he might have had a zen in the past.
i own a zen and he knows more than me about them so lighten up this is a fun thing were all doing not some battle ground lol.....................Pete
he he he mart you in trouble again?
john, mart is one of the good guys in here i love him to bits he,s sound and he was sceptical about the y lead and having said that he might have had a zen in the past.
i own a zen and he knows more than me about them so lighten up this is a fun thing were all doing not some battle ground lol.....................Pete
04-24-2007, 06:20 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
That's true Flabum, although I am not sure the response time is linear to supplied voltage drop - ie: it may not (or may be, - I look forward to the response) be the case that a 10% voltage drop equates to a 10% speed drop. (The 10% figure plucked from the air for ease of use)
Glenn
Glenn
04-24-2007, 06:27 PM
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RE: why use a y harness?
no i know flabum but marts about to quit and i quite like him he is a bit outspoken sometimes but arnt we all and you should read his thread on the build of his woody that he build on a budjet for next to nothing and the vids he put out.................Pete