sloppyG

it's all just basic economics

where is there opportunity for growth in the RC marketplace?

getting someone who's already in to buy an additional one, or getting a complete newbie started?
it's clearly the newbie, because once you get started you'll keep buying if you enjoy the hobby

RTR's are great for beginners, and good RTR's build brand loyalty so that later down the road you buy more expensive RTR's and/or kits from that same manufacturer

kits are great, but the news is that these RC companies aren't courting you or I on an RC car message board, they already have us

the RC companies are trying to get the business of rookies and people who you wouldn't call a "hobbyist/enthusiast"
that's why traxxas advertises in motortrend for a 70 mph nitro 4-tec

Phelansa

I for one never thought that there would be such a strong response to this topic. Personally I would not buy RTR. I love tinkering to much. Add to that the "cheapest possible" electronics that normally goes with RTR's.... In my case I spend about 2 hours tinkering for every hour I drive my cars. It just does not make sense, not to buy a kit. If you have never tried it, then I recommend that the guys who advocate RTR's try a building a kit. I am sure that at least 2 out of 3, will absolutely love the experience. It takes a lot less time/effort/skill to build than you think.

That said I think SloppyG makes some excellent points in the previous post.

ludeman

I have built kits. Now I just get RTR and put better motor and esc. Like I said it's a time thing for me.

Gex_61

I’m not sure if I can add anything to this thread. Just about everything has been said, and I don’t want to repeat info.

My first car was either going to be a Traxxas Rustler RTR, or a xxx-t kit. I went with the Traxxas Rustler because it was RTR and I couldn't wait to go drive it. My parents also liked the Rustler because they didn't know how involved with this hobby I was going to get, and it was going to be much cheaper than the xxx-t. I'd say my first 2-3 years, I didn't do much at all to my cars. I barely remember what my Rustler looked like. My dad did all of the maintenance, and I just drove. I then got a used xxx buggy from one of the local racers at my track. I didn't know anything about it either, other than the quality was much better than the Rustler. I slowly started to do things myself, cleaning the diffs, re-oiling shocks, etc... When I did eventually get my xxx-t mf1 kit, I built it by myself and enjoyed every second of it. It only took a few hours because I couldn’t put it down.

Now that I am very involved in the hobby and with racing, I will only buy kits if I can help it. It’s nice building your own car, and there are more quality parts in a kit. Things might have been a little different with me if the xxx-t kit was the only thing available in the hobby shop. Maybe kits will make a comeback once everyone has a car. Help the newbs out, so we can get there faster.

This thread is going to be 30 pages long in no time. Hot topic!

calvino

I got an RTR because I was new to RC and didn't know how much I would like it... and also I didn't want to say to my parents "HEY, I need a radio, ESC, servo, battery.... ([X(][:-][>:]) to get it running, soo I got an RTR, but I have to say, having the ability to make it your self/choosing what you want is a GREAT idea, my next vehicle MAYBE a kit, I do have to say, knowing how it works is great, it shure woulda saved me alot of headaches....[8D]. as for the RTR I do have to say there is a place for it, like beginners who want to get their feet wet without sinking a whole lot into something that they may not find enjoyable, but I do have to agree that the RTR is sadly taking over the market these days[], I do hope traxxas.... learns that HEY ARR and KIT are GOOD, and people DO LIKE THEM, nuff said for now

Shompola

I mainly buy kits, a lot of fun to build. However, I would love to get offered more finished bodies, especially Tamiya ABS bodies.

The Mad Modder

I started rc with a Traxxas Sledgehammer kit. It was pretty fun. Except that I has an updated kit and non-updated instructions. I failed to see the little slip of paper that explained about the update and wasted a good deal of time trying to order parts that I didn't need for the new kit. Finally figured it out though, and the rest went smoothly. Overall I did enjoy it very much and learned a lot about how RCs work.

Argess

I was going to stop with my last post, but somehow I just gotta be me.

There seems to be two subjects getting mixed up. I think the subject is supposed to be about kits. I immediately jumped at this thread due to the reference about RTRs because I've see too many long-term hobbiests pooh-pooh the newbies with their RTRs...the old kit snobery thing.

So maybe lets get back to "kits"????

One thing about kits is the lack of choices. There are some kits that are basically a chassis and suspension and that's it. Some include everything except the radio. I know I have a lot of questions about kits. For example, when it says all you need is an engine and radio, does that mean it comes with the flywheel, clutch components, exhaust header and pipe? And if it doesn't, what fits, and what needs fabrication or other mods to make it fit.

Maybe if the manufacutrer's knew what to offer in kit form, there would be more kits. Right now, it seems that to make kits more attractive (and keep the price up) they offer a kit with a lot of hop-ups already included (Baja 5B SS for example, or the kit version (team version) of the NTC3).

You know what, I'd like to read next in this thread? What does everyone want for a kit? What do they want included, and what don't they want included. Come on kit afficiendos.....what do you want a kit to include? AND you RTR guys.....what kind of kit would you be happy purchasing, if you were to buy a kit?

So maybe if the manufactures were to know more about what people want, they would offer it (maybe wishful thinking......)

iamnot

the only thing rc manufacturers see as
a vote for product is what people buy

people are buying rtr's much more than kits
witness the savage
comes as a kit
yet the rtr sells far more

that's what manufacturers look at

at tower they list their top 15 selling products
there's only 1 kit in the top 15
the baja 1/5 ss

since that's what's selling
that's probably
what they'll keep making

RCCanuck

well the RTR crowd is happy with their options in the market......the kit crowd needs to get off their duff and tell these companies what they want by using their buying power to shape the market.....its not a case of RTR's ruining it for kit builders that is just wrong.....If you want kits buy only kits and when you do send out an email to Traxxas or any other RTR company and tell them you want more kits and you may just switch to Traxxas if they had more kits available.....if every one that is dissapointed that the kit market is small did this than they would have to listen.....its all about supply and demand....if the demand is high enough the supply will catch up and eventually surpass the demand and thats when you will see some better pricing on kits.

Access

The problem there is that the kit buyers are expecting something extra, either a lower cost, better parts, or something like that for a similar cost. I mean if you saw a kit next to a RTR and the cost, parts, capabilities, etc. were exactly the same, as a 'kit' buyer wouldn't you feel 'cheated'?

And b'cos of the sheer volume differences and the way the distribution chain works (ultimately someone has to order and stock these items), its easier for them to just relegate kits to the very high end of the hobby (TC5, FT T4, etc.) and let everything else be covered by RTR. Kits are filing a niche but I don't think they will ever go back to being the mass-market standard.

The Mad Modder

I buy kits because I enjoy building them. Doesn't matter if it has more in it or not. Building it is half the fun of being in RC. Not every kit buyer is looking solely for more stuff.

Access

So would you be willing to pay, say 10%-20% over the RTR price for the "privilage" of getting what amounts to a non-assembled RTR that you can build up yourself?
B'cos with economics, the distribution chain, and the fact that someone has to stock these kits (which don't appeal to the mass-market like the RTRs) that is basically what the decision comes down to the for manufacturers. Look at it from their standpoint. Maybe direct-ordering and elimination / bypassing the distribution chain can change that, but right now this is how things are.

The Hedgehog

This is why I discovered Tamiya kits! I love building them like Sheograth said its an extra bous time of enjoyment you get with a kit.

I like RTR's because they bring people into the hobby and that's where it ends. I have a buddy who works at the hobby shop and you would not believe the amount of people that bring their Traxxas' in for really EASY maintenence.

The problem is when I want a car and it is only offered as RTR, I have to sell the radio equipment, servos, motor etc. etc...

Access

The worst thing I ever saw was a guy who didn't understand body clips, I was in a LHS with a field out back and guy comes in complaining the body won't stay on his car, the LHS staff shows him how to snap the body clips into the body posts to secure the body to his truck and then the guy goes back outside and runs his truck. Several minutes later he comes back in complaining the LHS staff messed up his truck and now the body is stuck and won't come off, LHS staff again had to explain the principle behind body clips again, that you have to take them off before trying to remove the body, I remember the two of us couldn't help but to laugh out loud at the whole affair.

calvino

dude, that is just SAD, someone who doesn't know the EASIEST thing in RC, man, if he can't understand THAT, I duno what happens when his car starts doing _____

sheograth

I have to admit something.


The FIRST time I ever saw a body clip I didnt realize they go into holes on the posts... I tried to force the entire clip open and around the post.

Bluebrew

My Feedback: (1)

Like a lot of you people I enjoy building and wrenching better than running(to a slight degree). Natually I wish there were more kits available, but realise the RTR's are the reason the wheeled R/C segment of the hobby is still going stong. There was a time my fleet was all kits, but after I had exhausted my choices I had no choice but to buy RTR if I wanted something new or different. As time passes I realise I sometimes have a hard time remembering which were kits and which weren't, because over time they all get "the treatment". Good to hear about the new Revo...never had one! Is it like the Savage SS with all but the radio gear? If so I predict a flood of 3.3's on fleabay!

drevil

My Feedback: (5)

That is silly. Why would it cost more for Traxxas to sell me a box full of parts that they didn't have to pay somebody to assemble? If anything a kit should be cheaper. I understand what you're saying about having to stock the kit compared to the RTR but I'm sure people would gladly buy kits if they were available. Not everyone is looking to just run these things, some of us actually enjoy the build. Personally I enjoy the build more than anything else.

I would gladly pay the same amount for a kit over RTR assuming everything else is equal.


But doesn't that make sense? How can you justify paying the same amount for a kit that doesn't include electronics when there is a RTR right next to it assuming everything else is equal? Of course kit buyers want a lower price because they aren't getting the electronics. Like I said above I would gladly pay for a kit over RTR if the price was the same and both included the same electronics.

Bluebrew

My Feedback: (1)

OK to address the thread title I have to agree with RCCanuk's view with regard to percentages. I think the number of instant gratification, it's just a toy types are very few. If they buy one and like it, we have a new hobbiest, if not it's banished to a closet or on fleabay!

sloppyG

dr evil,

kits can cost more due to economies of scale

the RTR is assembled in factories and ships complete

the kit needs to have individual parts bagged, and that requires different equipment at the factory

the companies sell far fewer kits than RTR's so the cost of the equipment to package the kits is spread out over fewer units so the cost per is higher


it's like in the auto industry, where manufacturers at a time decided to make an option like A/C standard because producing cars with and without adds to production costs


it's not just the total cost of the parts in the box that determine the cost, doing anything different and making different versions all make the price tag higher

Troopermanaic

My Feedback: (7)

I have an RTR and its tough. Its the HPI Nitro MT and it kiks @$$ but recently broke the steering knuckle

Access

You need to look at it from the perspective of everyone in the distribution chain. You are not buying the vehicle directly from Traxxas. A RTR might cost Traxxas $30. to manufacture, they sell it to the distributor for $50., the distributor sells it to the hobby shop for $80., and the hobby shop sells it to you for $160. The main determinant of cost is not how much the original item cost Traxxas it's how efficient (or inefficient) the distribution chain is in getting it to you, the end customer.

Look at it this way, lets pretend like there were two color schemes for the rustler, blue, and "hot pink". The latter was rather unpopular with most of the mass-market crowd and tended to sit on store shelves for several weeks before selling. While one could typically count on selling a few of the blue ones every week. Now if you were a hobby shop owner, how many rustlers would you order with the blue color scheme, and how many would you order with the "hot pink" color scheme. And what would your price difference be? Consider the limited amount of shelf space, your operating costs, and your business model (basically, turn over inventory, make profit, buy more inventory, repeat).

If your costs to the end customer are any kind of representation of your own costs (as a business), you would end up stocking less of the hot pink rustlers and selling them at a higher price.

iamnot

i was going to make this same point

but sloppy did it quite well
i think

but it's kinda funny to think of opening a box and it just being full of loose parts and screws

with no identification or instructions

can you imagine the
"what part is this"
posts that would generate

The Hedgehog

Lol, the mechanically inclined person in me kind of likes building and modifying r/c cars more than running them (guilty [&:]). I like painting nice bodies too.