ten pillows

After maidening my Ultimate today I was advised to check the wing incidences. These I was told by Rocco from Aeroworks were factory preset. He advised me to just build it and fly it. Wow! They are way off. I am new to this but I am concerned this plane will ever fly right. Here are the incidences:

Rt. inside lower wing.... = +0%
Rt outside lower wing... = +1%
Rt top inside wing....... = +1 3/4%
Rt top outside wing...... = + 1 1/4%

Lt. inside lower wing .... = 0%
Lt outside lower wing ... = 0%
Lt top inside wing ........ = - 1 1/4%
Lt top outside wing....... = - 1 1/4%

Stab was supposed to be factory set at 1% positive. Here are the actual incidences:

Lt inside stab +2%
Lt outside stab +1 1/2%
Rt inside stab - 1%
Rt outside stab -1%

All wings have wing tubes aqnd pins, which pretty much eliminates and modifications for adjustments. What can I do? Rocco told me out of appx. 400 or so planes from this shipment, that about 10% had the fuselage and wing pins incorrectly drilled. He gave me his advice on a quick fix that requires cutting the bottom monocoat under the fuselage and going in and reconstructing the pin holes that were drilled 1/16th of an inch off from the factory! (This has noting to do with the incidence. It was the first problem with this plane I ran into.) Since then however, there have been numerous problems with the assembly of this ARF.

My intent is not to dispairage here, only to seek out advice. What should I do to correct the incidences? Is it possible the plane can be trimmed to overcome the variances in incidences? Thanks for taking the time to evaluate and comment on these challenges!

ten pillows

scottfl78

well do you mean degrees instead of %? if so at least you are not over 2 deg off.. Perhaps the wing tips have some wash-out, or if not then a small warp? Many planes do.. I have heard of incidence problems before with other planes and the fix was to fill the pin holes with epoxy and re-drill them correctly.. Looking at your figures your left stab may be the only one off and possibly the right-top.. It is unfortunate, but I bet you I couldn't scratch build, or even kit build to the exact degree.. If you haven't already, give him your figures to see if the wings and stabs are warped or if they have wash-out.. AW Ultimates look to be awesome planes and I wish you luck.. Keep us posted..

ten pillows

Scott, thanks for the quick reply. Yes, the %(percent) does mean degrees. Dyslexia! H! It was late when I posted this and I didn't even notice how I had typed it. Regarding the left stab however, and the right top wing, will this combination cause the plane to have wing rock when flown? I know where there is a will, there is a way and I want to do whatever is necessary to make this plane fly well. It is a beautiful plane and everyone says they are great performers in the air. I am very leary to put this one up again until I have a better idea of what to expect. I will call Rocco this morning. Do you mean by stating that at least they are less than 2 degrees, that's not bad, uncommon or unusual? Sorry for so many questions but I've only built about 7 planes. This is the first bipe and I had no problems with incidence on the others. They were all ARF's too. Thanks again for your help.

ten pillows

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Hey Mike, you gonna bring that baby up and fly with us this weekend?

rmh

Check that your plane flies "hands off" level at cruising speed - then look at trims needed.
I did one of these for customer and it was pretty darn straight .
the incidences are are a trap -if you have any real aileron trim - the EFFECTIVE wing alignment is not going to be what was intended .
In a perfect world-- both top/bottom wings and ailerons would be exactly the same in operating angle -0-0.
So don't redrill nuthin till you are sure all trims are where they should be.
If the horizontal stabs are not perfectly true-- you will get a plane which flies with a lil bit of yaw - and wil loop track in a spiral to one side.
Rudder trim will change this but best to get the horizontal tail perfect before changing any wing/engine/rudder setups.
The stab alignment can be done with no cosmetic problems when model is re assembled
Tape 36" CF rods to assembled stabs and bore sight the alignment - get this perfect.

scottfl78

trust me.. I meant for him to fly it first and then fill and redrill the holes if nessecary.. I would only fly it if there is no chance of getting a new plane/fuselage from aeroworks.. I am assuming that they will not give you another plave as you said that they are aware of this issue with their ultimates.. I read a review on this plane in a recent magazine but don't have it handy to see if they had an issue, or if they even checked incidence.. All they said is that "it flew great".. Well every review says that So bottom line is that if you cant get a replacement plane you either:

1. Try to ship it back and get a refund.. It is a manufacturer defect and would warant replacement but who knows as I haven't dealt with aeroworks and don't know how they would handle this..

2. Try flying it and see if it is even noticeable..

3. If it is then it can be corrected by filling in the anti-rotation holes for the surfaces that are off, and redrilling them balls on...

This is all my opinion and maybe someone else has ran into this and can shed some light..

eraser

TP
I'm flying the Ultimate right now with a DA-50, and it flys great. With a bi-plane there is alot of stuff going on, roll coupling, pitch coupling, it just takes awhile to get it all mixed out. I've never checked the incidence of the wings, but I'll bet they are off. The only problem I had was that the plane would tuck towards the belly in a verticle climb, and i fixed this with a little up thrust. I agree with Dick, warped or twisted elevators are going to make it loop poorly. You should fly it first before making any drastic incidence changes

ten pillows

Possible Sunday. Do you want to meet in between?

Mike

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Hmm, maybe, have to see what the wife has planned.. You got a field in mind?

ten pillows

Thanks for all the input. I agree with all you, in that I need to fly it myself first and see how I handle it. I spoke with Rocco from Aeroworks this morning and he advised me that it is not uncommon for these planes to have as much as 3 degrees variance in wing incidences. He said variances are very common on bigger ones too. He says the most critical criteria is CG and thrust. Apparently these planes are designed with up thrust for aerobatics. He shared with me a few tests I can do when flying it to measure the thrust, and measurements I can make on the ground to figure out exactly what the right and up thrust are. He says sometimes he'll fly a plane 70 plus flights before he gets it completely set up right.

I did not ask about returning the plane. I really like it and hope when I fly it I'll be able to handle it. Dave Villwock maidened it for me and it truly was a hand full. It was all over the sky. We programmed in a few trim adjustments, but did not have the time to fly it again yesterday. Today I went to the field but it was to foggy to fly. I waited about 4 hours there for the fog to lift, but finally had to get to work so was unable to fly it. Hopefully tomorrow morning I will have the opportunity. If not then Sunday I'll hook up with John Vanderhage and he'll help me.

Being new to this hobby and new to RC Universe, I want to personally thank all of you for your wisdom and input. I am an avid reader and I spend hours combing these threads for info that will help me learn more. Allot of you are actively spending loads of time helping others. My hat is off to you.... Thanks..., and keep the info coming. I will keep you'all posted on my progress.

ten pillows

ten pillows

You know the fields bud I don't. I am willing to listen to any suggestions. Also, you would be welcome to come down on Saturday night and spend the night, fly Sunday, then return home so you wouldn't have to make the long drive in one day. Or...? What do you think about the wing incidences John?

Mike

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Glad it flew, wonder why it was such a handful.. Dales wasnt.. as far as fields, the only real in between one I know is the Skagit field... thats about 1.5hrs drive for me or so, probably around that for you I bet.

We will have to see if I can make it all the way down there.... Ill be down there all weekend next week for the show if nothing else works.

ten pillows

Maybe next week will be the program then. I will be working the expo booth on Friday 9 to 11 and Sunday 12-1. See you then if not sooner.

Mike

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

OK, if you dont want to come to skagit, we will see how next weekend plays out then. The skagit field is very nice! Ive been itching to take the big yak out there!

What booth you working in? Rams?

ten pillows

John let me see what the weekend looks like. I might come to Skagit on Sunday.

Mike

Scalenut-RCU

Sorry you are having some problems. I test flew my new Aeroworks Ultimate with a Fuji 50 last week and can tell you it is very responsive, and when a little out of trim could be a handfull. When I took off the rapid response rate and being out of trim gave me a challenge until I got some altitude. Once I got in a couple of clicks of down and a couple of clicks of right aileron it flew great, hands off. I only have a couple of 15 minute flights on it but really like it now that I have gotten my reflexes up to speed with this bird.

I have triple rates programed into my radio and would suggest you go with very low rates until you get used too it. I am only using high rate for aerobatics and extream high rate for 3D. I switch to low rates for takeoffs and landings. You may be feeling the extra crisp response and thinking it is an incidence issue. Good luck.

Scalenut-RCU

ten pillows

Thanks Scalenut, I will heed your advice and keep the rates very low for awhile. With a little luck I'll fly it tomorrow!

ten pillows

ten pillows

Hey Scalenut,

It was a fairly descent day today so I got in a couple of flights. The plane flew exceptional! Straight as an arrow. I know the incidence is off, but I am inclined to agree with Rocco, that the CG and thrust are the most critical factors. I am going to work on some video and try to post it in the next few days. Thanks for the advice, and you were right I didn't need much throw to rock!

ten pillows

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Congrats mike!

scottfl78

Good to hear.. What's a couple degrees between friends

ten pillows

Thanks John can't wait for you to try this plane and give me your opinion.

Mike

ten pillows

Thanks Scott. I am so relieved it didn't turn out badly. Man let me tell you the high rates are way fast and exhilarating! Hope to have video soon.

Mike...aka ten pillows...aka Rainman

jinwoo

My Feedback: (7)

Hi guys,

I am thinking about getting a 27% Ultimate and have some questions. What is wheel to wheel distance and the distance from tip of the nose to the wheel. I am trying to figure out if the fuse can fit into my car. I am carrying Funtana 90 in the passager seat with little room to spare. (I drive 1996 Camry).

Thanks

ten pillows

Hi jinwoo,

It's about 21" either way. Wheel to wheel is 21" and center prop to wheel, either side is appx. 20". I land and take off on grass so I did not take into account larger 4 1/2" wheels on my plane. That would add an additional 3" to the measurement. My wife has a 96 Camry too and I would expect with the wings off it, that it might fit in the passengers seat with the back reclined. You should be okay.

ten pillows

Bashedit

My Feedback: (35)

Ten Pillows,
It looks like your one of the latest to build one of these and I'd like to know if you encountered any other problems during the build. I just ordered one yesterday, I have a sweet spot for bi-planes, and any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Ed