Xrod

My Feedback: (2)

I am building a 1/5 scale Waco biplane. I want to build as light as possible, but I think that putting a "plastic" looking monokote covering on this plane would almost be a crime. I used silkspan and dope years ago, but am not familiar with the new products such as silk or coverall (Sig). What would you guys reccomend for a stand off scale biplane?

Highflyer

if you want to go scale, definately go with a fabric i suggest a unpainted fabric and a dope finish as this how the full scale airplanes are done.
as for a plastic covering, it looks just like that cheap plastic

Patriot

I agree with HighFlyer. If you want the bare minimum in scale appearance, then go with fabric and a dope or paint finish if you prefer. But the fact of the matter is, plastic is in fact CHEAP, CHEAP,CHEAP!!!!!
Don't get me wrong, plastic films are fantastic for smaller sport planes when scale appearance is not an issue. But, when building a larger scale aircraft like a WACO, CUB or even Warbirds, then plastic is kinda like blasphemy. You definitely want to spend a little extra time and go with silk or Koverall etc, they give a spectacular finish.
And granted, it does weigh a little more than plastic, but if done correctly, the differance can be only a few ounces for a plane that size, believe it or not.
To compensate for weight, there is alot of building techniques that can be utilized to make up for the differance, like using lightening holes in the ribs, or carbon reinforced balsa spars instead of spruce, not sure if your plane uses spruce or not. Also, for a Waco, you could also make a custom carbon fiber landing gear instead of aluminum or steel, whichever is stock. Many things can be done to help lighten up the overall framework and hardware so you can get the covering and finish of your choice without turning it into a flying brick.
When using fabric, just make sure you thin out your nitrate dope so you get nice thin easy coats instead of heavy gloppy lines all over your covering.
And use just enough to seal it, then prime and paint. Try not to spray on too many coats of paint, two is usually plenty.
If you use butyrate, then you can brush it on if you prefer, just use a good brush to help prevent lines in the finish. Hope this helps.

Patriot

Patriot

By the way, I am sure you don't need me to explain how to do a dope finish as you have used silkspan for a long time. The process is the same. The differance is that silk is great for covering and is very light, but it is getting VERY expensive. Koverall is my personal favorite, as it only weighs 1.25oz/yd, which is less than many plastic films, but comes out a bit more when doped/painted etc.
If I remember correctly, silkspan is good for covering sheeted areas, but not over open bays. Koverall or silk is best for that.
I like the Koverall because it is applied dry, not wet, and tacked around the edges with nitrate. When the edges are dry and fabric is in place, then you can use an iron to shrink it over the area, which I really like, because you can control the amount of shrinkage you apply to it in order to get the best surface. Some materials like Skyloft are applied wet, and they shrink when they dry, and I have heard that it can shrink so much it will actually warp the wood, bummer. So, I stick with Koverall, it is light, really strong, and heat shrinkable to your preferance.

Patriot

And of course the best thing about a proper fabric finish. It NEVER peels up from fuel. Plastic film will, it is inevitable, unless it is sprayed and sealed with clearcoat.

RC-Captain

Im building a kit for the first time . The plane is a Mirage 550 , and Im not sure what has to be done to the silk once I cover my plane with it . Also because it is so thin, how well does it hold the balsa together ?

PS do any of you guys have pics of a plane covered in silk or koverall ?

Patriot

RC-Fiend, I always suggest Koverall for covering rather than silk, mainly because it is heat shrinkable, and is much, much less expensive than silk, yet has a nice fabric texture. Silk is of course the nicest route for the true traditionalist builders.
As far as strength goes, it is much stronger than a plastic film when properly doped. To give you an example, take a piece of scrap monokote and cut it just a little, then gently tear it in half. Kinda like a candy wrapper, it tears very easily, once a tear begins, it is hard to stop. Now see if you can get a hold of a piece of doped fabric, and try to tear that with your fingers. It will, but takes a bit more effort. Also, if you get a small puncture in fabric covering, it will resist further tearing as best it can, since it is a weave, not solid plastic film. Monokote will continue to tear if it is punctured.
You will be very surpised to see how well it holds up over plastic film. Also, as I said in the previous thread, Koverall and silk lasts, and lasts, and lasts. And, it won't peel up from getting fuel on it, plastic film will, it's inevitible.

Patriot

Xrod

My Feedback: (2)

Patriot,
Thanks for your ideas. I have been reading a bit about Solartex. Have you ever worked with that. How about using Krylon spray paint??

Patriot

I have never used Solartex. And Krylon paint is not fuelproof, and if you do decide to use it, I suggest applying at least 2 coats of fuel proof clear coat over it to seal it, or else it will end up a gooey mess.
I have found the most fuel proof paints that are affordable is Rustoleum, but it takes a good week to fully cure. Really the most fuel proof stuff is two part high quality auto paint like DuPont or PPG brands, but now we are talking about money. I am going to be painting my Citabria Pro here in a month or two with rustoleum, then two part clear coat to finish it off with a little pearl coat mixed into the clear to give it a nice pearlescent sheen. I have to experiment a little, but will post pics of the whole thing when done. But it won't be for a while.

Patriot

daw

My Feedback: (6)

I have used Solartex and love it. I've covered four different planes with it with good success, It is a course weave fabric and looks good on a Bipe. I would recommend spraying it with a clear sealer to help it clean better. It is fuel-proof but wipes off easier with a shot of clear over it. It is very easy to work with and shrinks well. It doesn't seem to sag as bad as other fabrics I've seen. I've attach picture of my Sig Liberty Sport and TF Corsair both Solartex.

rflasch

My Feedback: (8)

This one's done in solartex

Patriot

From what I know, Solartex is a fabric based iron on covering right? I have seen this before, it's kinda like Coverite, and is really nice and easy to use like other films. The only bad thing about iron on coverings is that they always seem to have trouble with lifting at the seams when exposed to fuel, and the extra coarse weave can be hard to clean. I would do what daw said, and that is to give the whole thing a coat of clear-coat to seal it all up and make it easier to clean.
But then again, if I was to go through all the trouble of adding another coat of clear-coat over an iron on covering, why not just use silk or Koverall to begin with?
Another nice thing I'd like to mention about koverall or silk. When you do a good job with it, you can dope, prime and sand the seams. This way, there are no seems at all. Kinda neat when you look closely at the plane and there are absolutely no seams at all. Alot of guys who don't know alot about fabric, ask how I put all that monokote on and did it without any seams. The whole model has a perfectly smooth glass like surface with no visible seams. Can't do that with iron on covering, and looks very professional.
Alot of full scale planes that use fabric also fill and prime the fabric to the point where they have a glass like surface which looks much sharper than the weave look. It just depends on what kind of surface you want.
On full scale aircraft, a smooth glass like surface is preferable, since believe it or not, it gives better aerodynamics with less drag.

Patriot

P.S. Those are some sharp Bipes.

woodbutcher

Nice planes daw and rflasch! Is the Solartex the stock colors? If so, what paint did you use to match on the cowls etc.! Thanks.

Flypaper 2

Another you might look into is Micafilm. Very light, tough, takes paint well, and stays shrunk. My avatar is covered with it. About 10 yrs. old.

daw

My Feedback: (6)

Solartex comes in many colors. The only supllier I know of currently in the US is BALSAUSA. I recommend a heat reactive product such as BALSARITE or STIX-IT as a prep before covering. Those products allow the covering to adhere batter and stop sagging in the heat. It also can be used at seem areas to help prevent them from pulling apart. I really haven't had a problem with that myself. I normally overlap that material 1/4 inch. The best thing I can say abou tthe product is is ability to work around curves and shrink to fit. I believe you could cover a baseball without wrinkles.

Highflyer

people at my field use solartex alot on giant scale models and it looks really good
for an exelent finish: apply stix it to the airframe, iron on the koverall or it's equivilent, put on nitrate, put on the sandable sealent from sig and use probably about 350 to 400 grit paper, finally put on the buytrate and you'll end up with a proffessional looking airplane

if you spend so much time building a plane it should be a crime to put on some cheap plastic finish.

Toypainter

My Feedback: (5)

Solartex is great stuff. I used it on my .40 size Nieuport 28, painted it with Dupont automotive base coat then cleared with Minwax satin clear polyurethane (from Home Depot). It required no preparation at all for paint except wiping it down to make sure there was no dirt or grease or anything on it.
My next project is a 1/6th Pica T-28. I am going to use Solartex again, but this time I'll prime it to fill in the weave before painting.
By the way Quantum Models sells Solartex.

http://www2.mailordercentral.com/quantummodels/

Patriot

Went and looked at a plane that used solartex, and have to admit, it looks very nice. But then again, I guess I am getting a bit "snooty" when it comes to a finish. The plane was a Super Stearman, and looked great, but up close under the wings and fuse, it had all those seams all over the place.
Hence, my preference back to koverall. In many ways, I think choosing between these coverings is like chosing between Ford and Chevy. All I can say in the end is, ,if you want a the best looking finish with absolutely no visible seams, then go with silk or Koverall, as they can be covered when primed and finished.
Other than that, you might as well flip a coin.

Patriot

P.S. Xrod, for the good Lords sake, DON'T USE MONOKOTE for this plane. Especially a Waco.

pete913

I agree that using monokote on your Waco is a sacrilage of the highest order. Scale models of fabric airplanes should be done in silk and dope, or coverall, solartex etc. As for the weight issue, I've wrung that one out a long time ago, and I can't buy the myth that monokote is lightweight. I once weighed a square yard of opaque silver super monokote, and also a yard of prefinished coverite , which folks claim is soooooo heavy. The results were, the monokote weighed in at 2.4 oz, and the prefinished super coverite at 2.7oz. Acually, the semi transparent monokote is considerably lighter, about 1.4 oz, but that isn't gonna be an option for a scale plane. Also, as the size of the model increases, the weight of the covering becomes mostly a non issue.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

Don't use monokote, it's going to look like crap. I have used coverrite with poor results and it sags too much in time, just use solartex or worldtex they are the same thing by the same manufacture.I used it on my 1/5 waco, herr pitt's,super decathalon and my smith miniplane with no sagging issues or lifting problems. You do have to clear it if you want to make cleanup easy and plus the clear coat will seal all the seams down. Here's a few pic's of the smith mini plane I did, all my waco and decathalon pic's aren't supported here.[:-]

woodbutcher

Outstanding planebuilder 66!
I'm assuming the cream is the Solartex color. What about the blue? Is it all paint? What kind of paint?
I've got a Balsa USA EAA Bipe and will go with the Solartex but wondering about the best way to trim. Thanks.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

All the blue is worldtex/solortex covering, 56 pieces in all , the cowl, wheel pants and gear legs are blue streak by pactra and the whole plane is clear coated in topflite clear lustercote. The wire gear legs were built up w/ balsa and then .65 oz. glassed over them and then I painted it. I was kicking myself after I did all the stripes and I went to put on some numbers and realized that they too had to be cut out and ironed on as well as the tail design, I sat there stareing at the red numbers saying out " does it ever stop?! "

swooper

Well....somebody's got to give the dissenting viewpoint, right?
First, what full-scale airplane was covered with something like potato-sack burlap? The fabric covering materials seem too rough textured for a truly scale finish.
Second, is your model meant to be admired on the ground or are you going to fly it a lot? The ease of repair is a big factor in my choice of covering and from that point of view, film is the obvious choice.
I like building scale subjects but for sport flying purposes. Also, I want to be able to laugh off any crash, not have a "labor of love" turn into a heartbreak. Finally, we fly at 6300 feet elevation. For all these reasons, my new Pica Jungmeister is covered in Ultracote. It's nowhere near as plasticky looking as Monokote. As for the weight issue, I think you can save a half-a-pound easily on the big Waco. A lot of the covering goes on way behind the balance point, so any weight gain is quadrupled in ballast up front. It's all too common to read about fabric-covered short-nosed biplanes needing 12 oz. of lead on the firewall. The Jungmeister is going to balance without ballast other than what's built into the Thunder Tiger .91 4stroke.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

Swooper you have a lot of good points but it's just a matter of preference, I find that worldtex/solortex is actually easier to apply than monocote or ultracote but it's much easier to apply econocote due to it's low temp. The repair issue is in all of our minds when something happens but I don't think about the time spent covering a model when I lose one, I think about the building. But most of us know that's the gamble we take every time we fly. Yes, it does weigh more, but that's not going to stop me from using fabric covering on my bipes, why?, they just look better when playing the roll of hanger queen. I don't remember any of them needing weight to balance, of course I go the route of move the equipment to balance and not add weight, I had only 1 biplane that needed weight after all my efforts were done and it was a plastic film covered waco .30 by sportsman aviation, but that was a poorly designed arf that you can't do anything about. The last thing I don't get is the altitude thing?!, I lived in steamboat springs, CO for a year at 9000 ft altitude, I don't remember having problems with my planes up there, Hot days or cold. If you lose a lot of planes and blame it on altitude then I don't know what to say, a lot of people fly up there and have great success doing it, I did.

swooper

Thanks for the reply, planebuilder66, and "nice job!" on the Miniplane. What a great kit. Nobody ever said of my Miniplane "Gee, it's too bad you used Monokote."

You said "If you lose a lot of planes and blame it on altitude then I don't know what to say..." which seemed better left unsaid to begin with. I neither lose a lot of planes nor blame my mistakes on anything. I think my models get a reasonable longevity, but don't they all crash in the end?

As for the elevation comment, I've seen what a difference an extra 1/2 pound makes here while even at 4000 ft. it's not so bad. As elevation increases, the loss of engine performance is real. The loss of lift is real. The increase in stall, take-off and landing speeds are real. I think the answer is a lower wing loading and lower power loading. To me it all comes down to flight enjoyment and that means a lighter plane is a lot more fun! I'd rather get an extra 100 feet of height in loops than have a nicer appearance sitting on the ground. I did my first Hog-Bipe in Koverall, the second one in Ultracote. The weight loss and performance increase were dramatic, with the same engine, no less.

I didn't intend to say film is better than cloth, just that both have their advantages. I did a TopFlite Elder in "Antique" colored Coverite and Varathane that looked wonderful. A scale trainer, mailplane, WWI fighter, or other work plane needs the look of dull cloth, but to me airshow stunt planes look best in bright shiny colors. As you said, to each his own! [8D]

Good discussion here.

planebuilder66

My Feedback: (8)

Sorry, I didn't want it to sound pissy but koverall is way heavier than solortex, I did my pica waco in that orginaly and it was heavy. I had a pilot error mishap and I ended up coming to the conclusion to recover it in worldtex, man what a difference, I lost about 8 ozs. in total weight and I had to shift the battery back twards the tail. Don't get me wrong thou, I have a couple of warbirds and aerobatic planes that all are covered in monocote or ultracote. It's good stuff and takes a few beatings of hanger rash with no signs of damage. The one thing I did like about koverall is the ability to do a fuselage in 1 peice, man that stuff is strong too, I needed a knife to punture the covering.[:-]