O S 61FX Peeled Liner
08-26-2003, 06:06 PM
#1
Thread Starter
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
Well, I have a low time 61FX that I had on a trainer I had built for my son. We flew it some last summer and it sat up until just recently when I got it out for some exercise. The engine ran good for a few flights and then started giving me trouble. I got it home and noticed that the piston had some black marks on it. Popped off the head and found that the liner had peeled off around the top in several places. I know that this engine has not been abused and was broken in correctly for an ABN engine. Needless to say, I'm very dissapointed. Any suggestions for a replacement? I don't think I'll pay a premium price for a seemingly inferior product any more.
08-26-2003, 06:39 PM
#3
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: McLean,
VA
Posts: 402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
send it back to os engines
Try sending it back and see what they say. With mine, I flew it, then it sat around, then I flew it, etc. Never had a problem, and have never heard of a complaint like this.
08-27-2003, 04:35 AM
#5
Senior Member
ABN
Texastbird,
OS, as well as Webra, TT and others, have switched from ABC setups, with a true chromium plated sleeve, to an ABN setup.
This was done from a waste treatment perspective (Chromium pollution is more costly to neutralize.).
OS improved their ABN, with a flash copper layer, two stage process. As far as I know the .61FX had the improved process from the start. So it also fails.
I believe OS will stand behind their warranty, but you will still have a frail, sensitive ABN engine.
When you get it replaced by OS, break it in like it should be.
See this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...d+bore+engines
On the other hand, you can buy a good ABC engine....
OS, as well as Webra, TT and others, have switched from ABC setups, with a true chromium plated sleeve, to an ABN setup.
This was done from a waste treatment perspective (Chromium pollution is more costly to neutralize.).
OS improved their ABN, with a flash copper layer, two stage process. As far as I know the .61FX had the improved process from the start. So it also fails.
I believe OS will stand behind their warranty, but you will still have a frail, sensitive ABN engine.
When you get it replaced by OS, break it in like it should be.
See this thread:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/showthread...d+bore+engines
On the other hand, you can buy a good ABC engine....
08-27-2003, 09:12 AM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
When OS switched production to this new process Darzeelon mentioned, they had major QC problems with some engines; primarily the .46 FX and .32 SX models. They replaced a sack full of those during a year or so period. The liners had peeled just like you describe. I don't recall hearing of any complaints with the bigger motors, but apparently the process itself still has problems.
Don't mess around with techs; I would put a call in directly to Bill Baxter at Hobby Services. He's the manager there. The Empire is usually pretty good about backing up their products; especially when there is a known problem.
Mr. Baxter frequents the OS Support Forum here, so you might start there...
Steve
Don't mess around with techs; I would put a call in directly to Bill Baxter at Hobby Services. He's the manager there. The Empire is usually pretty good about backing up their products; especially when there is a known problem.
Mr. Baxter frequents the OS Support Forum here, so you might start there...
Steve
08-28-2003, 06:00 AM
#7
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
I believe that OS's change from abc to abn was not driven by pollution abatement costs since they still manufacture a number of true ABC engines to this day.
08-28-2003, 06:44 AM
#8
Senior Member
ABC, ABN and Ringed
Anthony,
I think it does have to do with pollution abatement costs.
An ABN costs less to manufacture than a ringed engine and has all but replaced them, in the "bread and butter" department.
The only company that uses ABN in real performance engines is Webra.
YS uses nickel, but in a totally different process, that doesn't "sport" the ABN's negative traits.
For "all out" performance, in marine and aircraft racing and for ducted-fan purposes, even OS doesn't believe in its own ABN process. It uses true chromium ABC instead.
I think it does have to do with pollution abatement costs.
An ABN costs less to manufacture than a ringed engine and has all but replaced them, in the "bread and butter" department.
The only company that uses ABN in real performance engines is Webra.
YS uses nickel, but in a totally different process, that doesn't "sport" the ABN's negative traits.
For "all out" performance, in marine and aircraft racing and for ducted-fan purposes, even OS doesn't believe in its own ABN process. It uses true chromium ABC instead.
08-28-2003, 10:25 AM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
I agree with Shemp. I believe this cheapening of the liner plating is yet another ramification of production shortcuts and corner-cutting that I have watched OS go through the past few years.
I do not doubt what you say regarding the processes, etc., DarZeelon. And I agree that OS is keeping an eye toward environmental concerns: the enviro-nazi special carburetor on the 70 Surpass II is a prime example of that.
But I get the distinct impression that OS, like many other firms, is building their product to a price point instead of a level of quality these days. IOW, the bean counters determine what price the product should sell for to attract the most buyers, and then the engineers and production folks are told how much resources they can devote.
If you shop around for a big-ticket item like an engine or radio, you will see a very close parallel in pricing structure between The Empire and Horizon. 120 four strokes are a prime example; take your pick of an OS or Saito 120- both sell for $329.99.
I know this has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum, but we are our own worst enemies. We, the consumer, have pushed the companies to this brink by demanding cheap stuff. In today's world, even more so than ever before, cheap and quality do not equate. The manufacturers have to maintain a certain profit margin to survive. The fact that most will try to gouge us for as much profit as possible (can you say Futaba electronics? The gray market has broken up THAT little party<G>) changes nothing.
I'm speaking of the US market, but I would imagine things aren't very different in the rest of the world. You've got outfits like Cyberheli in Hong Kong(?), who buy in mass quantities direct from the manufacturers and sell cheap, relying on volume and their low overhead to make their profit. Then you have The Empire, who have a massive advertising budget and support staff to feed, and for a while got away with charging almost TWICE what CyberHeli did for the same product (9252 servos, as an example). Six months ago, Tower Hobbies sold that servo for $139.99. Now it is around $80. CyberHeli has sold them for between $75 and $80 since they came out.
Where am I going with this rambling? Good question. All I know, regarding the topic of this thread, is that I have seen the overall quality of OS engines drop noticeably since I've been in the hobby (I began in 1986). I no longer feel they are the best available. Some offerings, such as the 32 SX small heli engine, still rule their class. But the product line overall? No way.
And last week, I put my money where my mouth is; my new Laser 150 should be here any day.
Steve
I do not doubt what you say regarding the processes, etc., DarZeelon. And I agree that OS is keeping an eye toward environmental concerns: the enviro-nazi special carburetor on the 70 Surpass II is a prime example of that.
But I get the distinct impression that OS, like many other firms, is building their product to a price point instead of a level of quality these days. IOW, the bean counters determine what price the product should sell for to attract the most buyers, and then the engineers and production folks are told how much resources they can devote.
If you shop around for a big-ticket item like an engine or radio, you will see a very close parallel in pricing structure between The Empire and Horizon. 120 four strokes are a prime example; take your pick of an OS or Saito 120- both sell for $329.99.
I know this has been cussed and discussed ad nauseum, but we are our own worst enemies. We, the consumer, have pushed the companies to this brink by demanding cheap stuff. In today's world, even more so than ever before, cheap and quality do not equate. The manufacturers have to maintain a certain profit margin to survive. The fact that most will try to gouge us for as much profit as possible (can you say Futaba electronics? The gray market has broken up THAT little party<G>) changes nothing.
I'm speaking of the US market, but I would imagine things aren't very different in the rest of the world. You've got outfits like Cyberheli in Hong Kong(?), who buy in mass quantities direct from the manufacturers and sell cheap, relying on volume and their low overhead to make their profit. Then you have The Empire, who have a massive advertising budget and support staff to feed, and for a while got away with charging almost TWICE what CyberHeli did for the same product (9252 servos, as an example). Six months ago, Tower Hobbies sold that servo for $139.99. Now it is around $80. CyberHeli has sold them for between $75 and $80 since they came out.
Where am I going with this rambling? Good question. All I know, regarding the topic of this thread, is that I have seen the overall quality of OS engines drop noticeably since I've been in the hobby (I began in 1986). I no longer feel they are the best available. Some offerings, such as the 32 SX small heli engine, still rule their class. But the product line overall? No way.
And last week, I put my money where my mouth is; my new Laser 150 should be here any day.
Steve
08-28-2003, 12:12 PM
#10
Senior Member
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
Good post Steve!
We're getting waaaaaaaaaay off topic here but....
I'm afraid I'm in DarZeelon's camp where the chrome issue is concerned. Enviro-Commies have made it excruciatingly difficult for industry to easily provide many of the things we had grown to really like!
Lawyers have made it difficult in other areas...Remote NV assy's come immediately to mind.
Never mind that they don't work for crap....the feeling I get is that a person can't get hurt by an engine that won't run!
No injury = No lawsuit.
As for OS. Despite some serious issues with liners and NV's, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to paint their entire product line with such a broad brush and say "it's gone". It isn't. I think their products represent some of the best engineering to be had at any price.
Now that the modeler has been replaced by r/c consumers...you will see the definition of "quality" radically altered. It isn't about "quality" anymore to the average modeler. It's about everything BUT quality... Sad but true.
I just can't see myself drooling over a "vintage" "YinYang.61" in some future time....
I don't have an answer...just these thoughts.
'race
We're getting waaaaaaaaaay off topic here but....
I'm afraid I'm in DarZeelon's camp where the chrome issue is concerned. Enviro-Commies have made it excruciatingly difficult for industry to easily provide many of the things we had grown to really like!
Lawyers have made it difficult in other areas...Remote NV assy's come immediately to mind.
Never mind that they don't work for crap....the feeling I get is that a person can't get hurt by an engine that won't run!
No injury = No lawsuit.
As for OS. Despite some serious issues with liners and NV's, I'm not sure it's entirely fair to paint their entire product line with such a broad brush and say "it's gone". It isn't. I think their products represent some of the best engineering to be had at any price.
Now that the modeler has been replaced by r/c consumers...you will see the definition of "quality" radically altered. It isn't about "quality" anymore to the average modeler. It's about everything BUT quality... Sad but true.
I just can't see myself drooling over a "vintage" "YinYang.61" in some future time....
I don't have an answer...just these thoughts.
'race
08-28-2003, 01:09 PM
#11
Senior Member
Engines
Harry Higley, or George Aldrich had an article in MAN, 15 or 20 years ago.
That article said that for an engine to sell in the USA for a street price of $100, it must sell at the gate of the factory that produces it for $10.
ALL THE REST IS PROFIT!
For OS the marketing in Japan takes its share, then the US distributor, then the local distributor, then the dealer and eventually, the price is tenfold.
When a car is made in Detroit, the difference between what the manufacturer receives for the car and what you actually pay for it, is about 20-25%. The total mark-up is 25-33%, not 900%, like in model engines and all other model accessories.
I know everybody wants to make a profit, but are we all such suckers? :stupid:
That article said that for an engine to sell in the USA for a street price of $100, it must sell at the gate of the factory that produces it for $10.
ALL THE REST IS PROFIT!
For OS the marketing in Japan takes its share, then the US distributor, then the local distributor, then the dealer and eventually, the price is tenfold.
When a car is made in Detroit, the difference between what the manufacturer receives for the car and what you actually pay for it, is about 20-25%. The total mark-up is 25-33%, not 900%, like in model engines and all other model accessories.
I know everybody wants to make a profit, but are we all such suckers? :stupid:
08-28-2003, 01:23 PM
#12
Senior Member
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
Without profit...business fails.
Don't be fooled by the car manufacturers. They'll ***** out the vehicle and then bend you over in the service department!!!
You'd better have an ABC A__hole or you're gonna see some REAL peeling!
Race
Don't be fooled by the car manufacturers. They'll ***** out the vehicle and then bend you over in the service department!!!
You'd better have an ABC A__hole or you're gonna see some REAL peeling!
Race
08-28-2003, 03:06 PM
#13
Senior Member
Sweinerei...
Of-course profit is good.
Curt, when was the last time you had to replace the piston/sleeve set in a TT.46 and paid $68, to overhaul a $75 engine?
The model engine industry drags you through the mud, not less than the auto industry.
When a certain level of profit is exceeded, someone is acting like a hog.
There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to buy a new, high quality .60 engine for $30.
It does not have to be produced somewhere in mainland China to cost this much.
That .60 costs $160, because we modelers are willing to pay that much. Not because it is worth it.
$30 still leaves a 50% margin for profit of all involved.
Curt, when was the last time you had to replace the piston/sleeve set in a TT.46 and paid $68, to overhaul a $75 engine?
The model engine industry drags you through the mud, not less than the auto industry.
When a certain level of profit is exceeded, someone is acting like a hog.
There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to buy a new, high quality .60 engine for $30.
It does not have to be produced somewhere in mainland China to cost this much.
That .60 costs $160, because we modelers are willing to pay that much. Not because it is worth it.
$30 still leaves a 50% margin for profit of all involved.
08-28-2003, 04:35 PM
#14
Senior Member
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
Gee whiz Dar...I think we've gotten so far off the original post we'd need a roadmap to get back.
I just don't agree that anyone is making a HUGE profit. If we consider ALL the costs involved with manufacturing and marketing a product....we see where all the "profit" goes. The list of people with their hands outstretched for their slice of the pie is LONG! Facilities, materials, machinery, utilities, R&D, engineering, outsourced processes, personnel, insurances, taxes, tariffs, transportation, marketing, ad infinitum. The product is the least of the mfr's worries...it's everything else that costs the money!
If any of us had the upfront cash...we could have an engine made to be sold as the "MyOwn .61". It would be a real shocker to see just how much of that 900% profit that has been mentioned ever remains to put food on the table!
I'm all for $30.00 HIGH QUALITY engines. We'll never see those however.
'Race
I just don't agree that anyone is making a HUGE profit. If we consider ALL the costs involved with manufacturing and marketing a product....we see where all the "profit" goes. The list of people with their hands outstretched for their slice of the pie is LONG! Facilities, materials, machinery, utilities, R&D, engineering, outsourced processes, personnel, insurances, taxes, tariffs, transportation, marketing, ad infinitum. The product is the least of the mfr's worries...it's everything else that costs the money!
If any of us had the upfront cash...we could have an engine made to be sold as the "MyOwn .61". It would be a real shocker to see just how much of that 900% profit that has been mentioned ever remains to put food on the table!
I'm all for $30.00 HIGH QUALITY engines. We'll never see those however.
'Race
08-28-2003, 07:14 PM
#15
Senior Member
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
Well...
I'm afraid all this hoo-hah has done nothing to assist our friend Texastbird with his engine.
My suggestion would be to allow Hobby Services to take care of the liner issue under warranty. Purchasing an aftermarket replacement RNV would likely address the infamous "fuel aerator" effect of the dreaded stock remote needle and to go back to using the motor.
Perhaps OS can outsource it's bread and butter line to China where prison labor is so cheap, and concentrate it's efforts on producing the quality products it is capable of.
'Race
I'm afraid all this hoo-hah has done nothing to assist our friend Texastbird with his engine.
My suggestion would be to allow Hobby Services to take care of the liner issue under warranty. Purchasing an aftermarket replacement RNV would likely address the infamous "fuel aerator" effect of the dreaded stock remote needle and to go back to using the motor.
Perhaps OS can outsource it's bread and butter line to China where prison labor is so cheap, and concentrate it's efforts on producing the quality products it is capable of.
'Race
08-29-2003, 01:17 AM
#16
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hervey Bay Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,995
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ABC engines
Still to be found for reasonable prices .. quality too.
I love my MVVS .49 and .61. Quality chrome plating on the liner and nice materials.
I also like the slightly "tough" (rough?) exterior look. Not pretty like OS. But with engines, beauty should always be more than skin deep.
For the gentleman who enquired about Lasers, I have a laser .70 that is 10 years old, and has a great "ringed" (2 in fact!) ABC set-up. Sadly, Laser are now in the "no liner brigade", and plate the bores with Nickel. They do a good job of it though. I have a 300 V-twin (beast!) that sounds like a Harley, but doesn't vibrate nearly as much.
It's going in a Creek Hobbies 73" Sukhoi. Should be fun
.
fiery
I love my MVVS .49 and .61. Quality chrome plating on the liner and nice materials.
I also like the slightly "tough" (rough?) exterior look. Not pretty like OS. But with engines, beauty should always be more than skin deep.
For the gentleman who enquired about Lasers, I have a laser .70 that is 10 years old, and has a great "ringed" (2 in fact!) ABC set-up. Sadly, Laser are now in the "no liner brigade", and plate the bores with Nickel. They do a good job of it though. I have a 300 V-twin (beast!) that sounds like a Harley, but doesn't vibrate nearly as much.
It's going in a Creek Hobbies 73" Sukhoi. Should be fun
.fiery
08-29-2003, 08:57 AM
#17
Senior Member
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
Three cheers for MVVS!
I happen to think the MVVS has a very "european" look to the finish. That's not "rough"....it's multi-faceted class!
Superb engines selling for less than they're worth.
'Race
I happen to think the MVVS has a very "european" look to the finish. That's not "rough"....it's multi-faceted class!
Superb engines selling for less than they're worth.
'Race
08-29-2003, 10:28 AM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
fiery,
I'll be interested to hear how that 300 twin works out. I'm thinking about a MidWest 80" CAP or Super Stinker bipe as a future project, and I'm just not interested in gasoline or big two-stroke glow engines.
The candy man delivered my Laser 150 yesterday. What a piece of work! I've got to install a GEM 200 and static-track the main blades on that new helicopter, then I can clear the bench and get started on the Ultimate.
This Laser 150 is amazingly compact; and light. Should be a real winner.
Steve
I'll be interested to hear how that 300 twin works out. I'm thinking about a MidWest 80" CAP or Super Stinker bipe as a future project, and I'm just not interested in gasoline or big two-stroke glow engines.
The candy man delivered my Laser 150 yesterday. What a piece of work! I've got to install a GEM 200 and static-track the main blades on that new helicopter, then I can clear the bench and get started on the Ultimate.
This Laser 150 is amazingly compact; and light. Should be a real winner.
Steve
08-30-2003, 12:35 AM
#19
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Hervey Bay Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,995
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
?
Steve
You and I think alike. Big two strokes (gas or glow) leave me cold.
Big four strokes - preferably twins or multi's - now your talking!
Let us know how you get on with your Laser 150 (superb engine!)
Perhaps start a new thread on it?
I'll post once the Sukhoi is finished. I'm still wondering if I'll be enough pilot for it, but hey, the motor fits, and I prefer not to stuff the noses of my aircraft with church roof if I don't have to ....
fiery
You and I think alike. Big two strokes (gas or glow) leave me cold.
Big four strokes - preferably twins or multi's - now your talking!
Let us know how you get on with your Laser 150 (superb engine!)
Perhaps start a new thread on it?
I'll post once the Sukhoi is finished. I'm still wondering if I'll be enough pilot for it, but hey, the motor fits, and I prefer not to stuff the noses of my aircraft with church roof if I don't have to ....
fiery
08-30-2003, 01:39 AM
#20
Senior Member
My Feedback: (13)
O S 61FX Peeled Liner
I spoke with Joe at Proctor today. He said the 300 would be major overkill for the MidWest CAP; the 200 twin would be perfect, in his opinion. Hmmmm...
Anyway, it will be a bit before I start paying attention to the 150. I just might start a new thread on it. I hope there is more interest than there was when I was looking for info on the Enya R155...
Steve
Anyway, it will be a bit before I start paying attention to the 150. I just might start a new thread on it. I hope there is more interest than there was when I was looking for info on the Enya R155...
Steve
