thunderchief

I had a discussion at the field today or argument! We have a cement pad for turbine start up then we have a 150 foot taxi way to the main run way. One of the guys in the club said that AMA requires that after start up you have to carry your fire extinguisher to the pilot's station . That’s a new one on me. The AMA requirement on page two of “Safety regulations for model aircraft powered by gas turbines” says 16. A”B/C-rated or equivalent fire extinguisher shall be present for all engine starts. Water based fire fighting equipment shall be present at the field.” He claims that because it is listed under the sub heading “Flight line Requirements” that it must be carried to the flight line. The guys are FPV fliers and up set because we have told them that AMA requires all FPV to have a spotter. Any input would be appreciated especially from a CD. Thanks
Glenn

Wclays

My Feedback: (85)

Flight Line Requirements
16. A “B/C”-rated or equivalent fire extinguisher shall be present for all engine starts. Water based fire fighting equipment shall be present on the field.

17. A phone shall be present at the site, along with the phone number of the closest fire department or 911, whichever has been determined to be most effective for emergency response.

18. For all organized events, dedicated to jet models, a safety barrier shall be in place.

19. The pilot will exercise caution during ground operation so that the exhaust gasses from the engine do not impinge on any flammable object. For organized events the use of blast deflectors in the start up area is recommended.
20. No turbine powered fixed wing model will be flown after dark, or in poor visibility conditions.
Rotary wing models require an onboard illumination system providing the pilot with a continuous and clearly illuminated view of the model’s attitude and orientation at all times.

21. Turbine powered aircraft will not be allowed in any speed or racing events.

22. All hand-launching of aircraft, with a flight weight under 7.5 pounds wet, will be no closer than 25 feet from any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot’s helper. It is recommended that the pilot utilizes the assistance of a helper to launch the model.

Per AMA

Clay

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

And once you clarify this they will find something else! Believe me.

Seriously, it is only where the turbine is started, that is what is says in the rules. Call Ilona at the AMA and see if they will believe her.

Wclays

My Feedback: (85)

Some Rules for the FPV groups that seem to forget they need a spotter and someone to take over.

d) All FPV flights require an AMA FPV pilot to have an AMA FPV spotter next
to him or her maintaining VLOS with the FPV sUAS throughout its flight.

e) The AMA FPV pilot must brief the AMA FPV spotter on the FPV spotter’s
duties, communications, and hand-over control procedures before FPV flight.

f) The AMA FPV spotter must communicate with the AMA FPV pilot to ensure
that the FPV sUAS remains within VLOS, warning the FPV pilot of
approaching aircraft, and when avoidance techniques are necessary.

g) During an FPV flight, the FPV spotter must be prepared to acquire the
transmitter/control from the FPV pilot and assume VLOS control of the sUAS
at any time safe operation of the flight is in question.

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

FenderBean

Honestly "on the field" covers you, it doesn't not specify anything more restrictive. That is simply his interpretation of a rule that is vague, so until the club adds to that or AMA changes the wording I would keep doing your thing. I have never seen anyone bring their fire extinguisher from the start up area to where they stand to fly. A simple fix if the guy persists is to give AMA a call, I have done this before to clear up somethings when some people said one thing while others another.

And the club recommended setup distances are just a recommendation not mandatory, some clubs can't meet that due size limits and things but are still covered under AMA.

paulsf86

My Feedback: (52)

Agree with both posts by Wclays above.
Paul S

Len Todd

In our particular case, we have the Pitts back 125' from runway's Centerline. The Startup area is back 100' - 75' from Centerline. We have 75' Taxiways to runway, Pilots stand back 50' from centerline (i.e. ~ 10' -15' back from edge of runway), safety line = edge of runway. Runway = 75' wide. Everyone's field has a little bit different layout. Last time I saw the AMA RECOMMENDED field layout diagram it was still "recommended." So given any field layout, one is supposed to apply common sense, ... hopefully. CO2 Fire extinguishers generally are located in the startup areas. Water extinguishers typically have to be in some sort of vehicle because you need to get there quickly to do any good with a small water extinguisher. (We have had several jets go down over the years. Seldom do they go down close to the flightline). For us, there also has to be some hand-held extinguishers cause we have some places you can't drive the fire fighting vehicle and they are handy for the Pits, etc.. A little common sense goes a long ways. Every club should evaluate their own particular field layout and determine what is needed to be as safe as reasonably possible. Len Todd, CD

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

Agree with the above. If I might add another rules question.

22. All hand-launching of aircraft, with a flight weight under 7.5 pounds wet, will be no closer than 25 feet from any individual, except for the pilot and the pilot’s helper. It is recommended that the pilot utilizes the assistance of a helper to launch the model.

This is strangely worded. Some might take it to mean you can't hand launch an 8lb jet but the rule doesn't really state that. My question is if I have an 8lb glider powered by a K45, why wouldn't I be allowed to hand launch it. And yes, by the rules I would have to have a rudder and brakes. Brakes would never be used but they would be on there.

c/f

My Feedback: (1)

To your FPV flyers, Rarely discussed rule. Any video transmitters outputting greater than 25mw, requires a HAM tech license, 250mw is the norm for outside racers 8-)
Does your club require AMA license display board? what about HAM tech license ? If this where more widespread known I believe 2/3 of FPV activity would disappear.

Len Todd

Not true! FPV does not meet the requirements of Part 97 (Amateur Radio Operations). Specifically, it does not transmit callsigns, It does not listen to preclude interference, Amateurs are allowed only a very few type of one-way transmissions, none of which FPV qualifies in. And then there is the issue of taking prize money at races. Not allowed by hams! But your inference is right, most of us are not even hams. Then re. power levels: Part 15 of FCC regs allows 50db at 3 meters which equates to less than .5 mW ( that is point five milliwatts, not 25 mW).

I brought this up with AMA and Horizon's Engineering Manager at Toledo. From the end user perspective, the best away around the Amateur Radio requirement is FCC Acceptance, just like our Radio Transmitters we use for controlling the craft. The manual on Blades new Torrent infers that they were headed down that path. But they obviously did not get there because there is no FCC Acceptance sticker on the bird. I was told there is one other bird out there with FCC Acceptance, but have not seen or IDed that bird. According to the AMA rep I have been discussing this with recently, AMA has a lawyer looking into the potential need for Part 97 rule changes or other guidance from the FCC. But, with guys taking purses as prizes, using unlicensed transmitters out side of Part 97 requirements and claiming a ham license covers them, this may all blow up in our face. That's why I asked the AMA folks to look into this with the FCC so that we are seen as wanting to be preempting the issues versus a bunch of out of control federal law violators.

IMO the Ham bands are the right place to be doing FPV video. But, there needs to be some rule changes before what we are currently doing is legit, let alone where we might be in 5 years, etc.. And, ... if you are taking prizes or prize $s home, well then the ham bands are not the right place for you. Then you are a Part 107 flyer and need an appropriate FCC and FAA licenses! Right now the current situation is a regulatory mess waiting to happen! Hear, see and speak no evil will eventually not work. The sacrificial lambs may just find themselves facing $10K notice of forfeitures. The last repeat offender notice I saw for similar issues was $20K +.

c/f

My Feedback: (1)

http://www.tested.com/tech/488686-wh...se-flying-fpv/

My understanding is different than yours and those I fly with have got the license,

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Len Todd

Classic - Hear no evil, see no evil. I ran these issues past the American Radio Relay League's Engineering and Governmental Affairs reps. Their conclusion is exactly as I stated it. Actually, they brought up the one-way transmission issue and they independently calculated the Part 15 (i.e. no license required regs) Also, I have been a ham for 47 years. You may want to consider actually reading Part 97 of the FCC regulations. Enough said. I am not here to engage in a regulations war. Just want to make sure we do not mislead folks with incorrect info.

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

21. Turbine powered aircraft will not be allowed in any speed or racing events.

That answers a lot, I was wonder why we didn't have turbine pylon racing. Ummm Sad Face

SECRET AGENT

My Feedback: (18)

Can you imagine turbine pylon racing! I've watched many a pylon race and never saw one where someone didn't crash, you would have to have an entire fire dept at the field for that kind of event, HA!

c/f

My Feedback: (1)

"Just want to make sure we do not mislead folks with incorrect info"

While I appreciate learning different points of views on this subject, the 45 year veteran HAM examiner in our club appears to have not understood 97 as well and up the ranks of the HAM community by half dozen .8-)
I will definitely bookmark your opposing view point for future reference.

Auburn02

My Feedback: (1)

Maybe it means you can still launch your 8lb jet, but since it's more than 7.5 lbs you don't have to bother with being 25 feet away from everyone else. Just launch it over their heads. The rule implies that's okay!

why_fly_high

My Feedback: (19)

How stupid of me! They are only worried about those little squirrely jets. Makes perfect sense now!

Vettster

extinguisher at the pilot station?... Yes Please! Add a tripping hazard that you can fall over while watching your jet taxi off the runway towards the pits, then trip and hit full throttle launching the plane right into the pits!

Such a stupid Idea made up by stupid people that are not happy with the amount of damage they have already done to the hobby.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

The way I understand is that you need to have the gas Co2 extinguisher when the engine is starting, the Co2 extinguisher is useless on a jet that has crashed and is on fire ( I've had, helped put out and seen many on fire )

We will encounter a few AMA members that don't fly jets and have a different interpretation of the turbine rules and they will try to enforce their interpretation on us, I had that happened a few years ago when I was observing a qualification flight for a new turbine pilot, we were not members of that club ( the instructor and myself ) but the qualifying pilot was, the other club member was telling us that for the qualification flight the prospective jet pilot had to be body boxed with his instructor, we argue but at the end we agreed to do the flight with the body box but I told the instructor that he had to keep his hands off the body box and to stand behind the qualifying pilot during the entire flight and he did, we couldn't shake the other club member, he was hovering around us during the entire flight.

The interesting part is that I singed off a few turbine waivers at hat field before and after that incident without anyone trying to enforce the turbine rules.


The experienced turbine pilot will
assist the applicant with as many flights as necessary until satisfied that the applicant is prepared for
the qualification flight after which the experienced turbine pilot will declare the applicant qualified to
perform the qualification flight flying solo without buddy box assistance.
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flyinfool1

My Feedback: (2)

The AMA does not require a buddy box for the qualification flight, but the club rules may have such a requirement, any club rule that is more restrictive than AMA rules trumps and the AMA will never tell a club to back off on any rule. Or it could just be an overzealous member that has not read ALL of the AMA rules that do not apply to him.

The club that I am prez of does have some special rules for turbines that are applicable to our field layout and lease agreements, no one can violate them just because it is not an AMA rule. Many clubs have rules in addition to the AMA rules. If something is brought up, rather than argue, just ask to see the document they are referring to (Club rules should be posted at the field). At that point, someone will learn something. I keep a current set of AMA turbine rules in my flight box just for days like that.

Auburn02

My Feedback: (1)

Guessing it's more of the latter, but good points.

Could you share what some of those rules are? Not looking to argue with whatever rules your club has added, just curious really since I don't often get to fly away from my home field outside of going to events like FL Jets and such which typically aren't at a club field.

flyinfool1

My Feedback: (2)

Here ya go.

As with most rules, they evolve because of an issue that has occurred. So some look silly but address a real issue that has happened.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

That was the first time and the last time we heard of that rule at that club, no other member had heard about it, we had a few more waivers signed off per the AMA rule after that event, that member was a special one that many liked and didn't, because he would loose it in an instant then the next second he turned into the nicest person around.

SECRET AGENT

My Feedback: (18)

I've met many people like that. They need a t-shirt warning people that reads: "I hate being bipolar, it's freaking awesome!"