Fuel Mix Question
09-17-2017, 01:41 PM
#26
Not using fuel after a month because its bad HORSE PUCKY! If you buy in to this you need to give your head a shake.
Car collectors and hot rodders often start and run their toys after prolonged sitting without dumping the fuel and replacing it with fresh.
Racers with 45 gallon drums with fuel left in at the end of the season seal it up and run it off in the new season several months down the road with no problems.
Resorts and many outdoorsman simply unhook their tanks after winterising their outboards only to hook them up and run them come spring.
Weed whackers, garden equipment, snow blowers and farm machinery all get fired up and run after sitting for long lengths of time without throwing the fuel out and suffer no problems.
There are just too many examples of fuel sitting for extended periods of time before being used and working perfectly to believe the ones who would have you tossing any fuel you haven’t used up in a month. Pure unadulterated bull in my opinion and anyone who buys into this garbage needs help as badly as the ones who profess this practice.
Dennis
Car collectors and hot rodders often start and run their toys after prolonged sitting without dumping the fuel and replacing it with fresh.
Racers with 45 gallon drums with fuel left in at the end of the season seal it up and run it off in the new season several months down the road with no problems.
Resorts and many outdoorsman simply unhook their tanks after winterising their outboards only to hook them up and run them come spring.
Weed whackers, garden equipment, snow blowers and farm machinery all get fired up and run after sitting for long lengths of time without throwing the fuel out and suffer no problems.
There are just too many examples of fuel sitting for extended periods of time before being used and working perfectly to believe the ones who would have you tossing any fuel you haven’t used up in a month. Pure unadulterated bull in my opinion and anyone who buys into this garbage needs help as badly as the ones who profess this practice.
Dennis
09-17-2017, 04:10 PM
#27
The aromatics are the first thing to leave the gas, making for hard starting. Gas stored in cool, dark, airtight containers has a fairly long shelf life. Once oil is mixed in, the degradation accelerates markedly. I have overhauled many two strokes large and small, that were severely damaged by degraded fuel.
You might get away with using old fuel. You might not. As an engine lover, I treat my engines in the best manner possible, and don't take chances.
AV8TOR
You might get away with using old fuel. You might not. As an engine lover, I treat my engines in the best manner possible, and don't take chances.
AV8TOR
09-18-2017, 01:35 AM
#28
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Not using fuel after a month because its bad HORSE PUCKY! If you buy in to this you need to give your head a shake.
Car collectors and hot rodders often start and run their toys after prolonged sitting without dumping the fuel and replacing it with fresh.
Racers with 45 gallon drums with fuel left in at the end of the season seal it up and run it off in the new season several months down the road with no problems.
Resorts and many outdoorsman simply unhook their tanks after winterising their outboards only to hook them up and run them come spring.
Weed whackers, garden equipment, snow blowers and farm machinery all get fired up and run after sitting for long lengths of time without throwing the fuel out and suffer no problems.
There are just too many examples of fuel sitting for extended periods of time before being used and working perfectly to believe the ones who would have you tossing any fuel you haven’t used up in a month. Pure unadulterated bull in my opinion and anyone who buys into this garbage needs help as badly as the ones who profess this practice.
Dennis
Car collectors and hot rodders often start and run their toys after prolonged sitting without dumping the fuel and replacing it with fresh.
Racers with 45 gallon drums with fuel left in at the end of the season seal it up and run it off in the new season several months down the road with no problems.
Resorts and many outdoorsman simply unhook their tanks after winterising their outboards only to hook them up and run them come spring.
Weed whackers, garden equipment, snow blowers and farm machinery all get fired up and run after sitting for long lengths of time without throwing the fuel out and suffer no problems.
There are just too many examples of fuel sitting for extended periods of time before being used and working perfectly to believe the ones who would have you tossing any fuel you haven’t used up in a month. Pure unadulterated bull in my opinion and anyone who buys into this garbage needs help as badly as the ones who profess this practice.
Dennis
True car collectors use all sorts of tricks to avoid all the problems with stale fuel, I've talked to a few.
Race gas has very little to do with ordinary gas, they mostly share the name, and that's it. But a lot of the race gas will turn to jelly after some time, not over a couple of months though.
I have no idea about what resorts and outdoorsman do, but sometimes it help not knowing any better.
At the local service center for weed whackers, lawn movers etc, about 90% of the bad or not running engines is due to bad gas.
A large car engine might just run slightly rough with old(-ish) fuel, but a small engine is a lot more sensitive.
Though it's been quite a few years and somethings has changed, back in the late 90's when I worked at an oil refinery the chemist could detect degradation in gas after about 2 weeks. But hey, what do they know...
(And No, that's not the same as you have to pour out the fuel after a couple of weeks.)
09-18-2017, 03:00 AM
#29
Yep. +1.
The problem is well known, well published, and well documented. I've been building race engines, all types of engines actually for cars, boats, full size airplanes, etc. for over 50 years and have encountered the problem too many times to count. I'll not argue about it....
AV8TOR
The problem is well known, well published, and well documented. I've been building race engines, all types of engines actually for cars, boats, full size airplanes, etc. for over 50 years and have encountered the problem too many times to count. I'll not argue about it....
AV8TOR
09-18-2017, 03:51 AM
#30
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Yep. +1.
The problem is well known, well published, and well documented. I've been building race engines, all types of engines actually for cars, boats, full size airplanes, etc. for over 50 years and have encountered the problem too many times to count. I'll not argue about it....
AV8TOR
The problem is well known, well published, and well documented. I've been building race engines, all types of engines actually for cars, boats, full size airplanes, etc. for over 50 years and have encountered the problem too many times to count. I'll not argue about it....
AV8TOR
09-18-2017, 04:29 AM
#31
My Feedback: (2)
Clearly, when discussing this issue, you need to mention whether or not you are discussing fuel that has been mixed with 2 stroke oil, or straight, unmixed fuel.
2 stroke oil has fuel conditioner in it that when mixed with straight gasoline makes storage for a few months a complete non event.
Any comments without that info is without merit, as people have no idea what you are talking about.
That said, when talking straight pump gas storage, I've had stuff that would plug up super easily, taking a just a month or 6 weeks (think Honda bikes and outboards here w/TINY fuel passages), and I've had stuff that would go several months without issue - like a couple of small full scale airplanes in my past (Tri-Pacer and C182) with mo-gas STC's. So, I can say when it comes to straight gas storage, it depends! When something is going to be stored for a while, you can roll the dice, or you can use fuel conditioner. Your call!
2 stroke oil has fuel conditioner in it that when mixed with straight gasoline makes storage for a few months a complete non event.
Any comments without that info is without merit, as people have no idea what you are talking about.
That said, when talking straight pump gas storage, I've had stuff that would plug up super easily, taking a just a month or 6 weeks (think Honda bikes and outboards here w/TINY fuel passages), and I've had stuff that would go several months without issue - like a couple of small full scale airplanes in my past (Tri-Pacer and C182) with mo-gas STC's. So, I can say when it comes to straight gas storage, it depends! When something is going to be stored for a while, you can roll the dice, or you can use fuel conditioner. Your call!
09-18-2017, 06:53 AM
#32
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Clearly, when discussing this issue, you need to mention whether or not you are discussing fuel that has been mixed with 2 stroke oil, or straight, unmixed fuel.
2 stroke oil has fuel conditioner in it that when mixed with straight gasoline makes storage for a few months a complete non event.
Any comments without that info is without merit, as people have no idea what you are talking about.
2 stroke oil has fuel conditioner in it that when mixed with straight gasoline makes storage for a few months a complete non event.
Any comments without that info is without merit, as people have no idea what you are talking about.
Some oils are not even recommended to be stored mixed for more then a couple of weeks.
The majority of small engines that doesn't run after winter storage etc is small 2 strokes.
09-18-2017, 07:36 AM
#33
My Feedback: (2)
If you don't mention what 2 stroke oil you're talking about it's safer to say that it's not safe, as far from all 2 stroke oils have any conditioner/stabilizer.
Some oils are not even recommended to be stored mixed for more then a couple of weeks.
The majority of small engines that doesn't run after winter storage etc is small 2 strokes.
Some oils are not even recommended to be stored mixed for more then a couple of weeks.
The majority of small engines that doesn't run after winter storage etc is small 2 strokes.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
API TC is a certification for two-stroke oils, awarded by the American Petroleum Institute. It is given after the product passes through stringent tests that determine the level of detergent performance, dispersion, and anti-oxidation. It is the only remaining, not revoked classification of the API Two-Cycle motor oil specifications (TA, TB, TC, TD). Being a very old standard itself, most currently produced 2T lubricants meet its specifications, even the lowest quality ones; current high-quality oils exceed them (often labeled "API TC+" although not based on actual measurements).
That said, no clue what oils you have available to you locally. State side, 2 stroke oils generally provide for fuel conditioning.
API TC is a certification for two-stroke oils, awarded by the American Petroleum Institute. It is given after the product passes through stringent tests that determine the level of detergent performance, dispersion, and anti-oxidation. It is the only remaining, not revoked classification of the API Two-Cycle motor oil specifications (TA, TB, TC, TD). Being a very old standard itself, most currently produced 2T lubricants meet its specifications, even the lowest quality ones; current high-quality oils exceed them (often labeled "API TC+" although not based on actual measurements).
That said, no clue what oils you have available to you locally. State side, 2 stroke oils generally provide for fuel conditioning.
09-18-2017, 09:27 AM
#34
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That would be a direct contradiction to my experience. As far as actual documentation:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
API TC is a certification for two-stroke oils, awarded by the American Petroleum Institute. It is given after the product passes through stringent tests that determine the level of detergent performance, dispersion, and anti-oxidation. It is the only remaining, not revoked classification of the API Two-Cycle motor oil specifications (TA, TB, TC, TD). Being a very old standard itself, most currently produced 2T lubricants meet its specifications, even the lowest quality ones; current high-quality oils exceed them (often labeled "API TC+" although not based on actual measurements).
That said, no clue what oils you have available to you locally. State side, 2 stroke oils generally provide for fuel conditioning.
API TC is a certification for two-stroke oils, awarded by the American Petroleum Institute. It is given after the product passes through stringent tests that determine the level of detergent performance, dispersion, and anti-oxidation. It is the only remaining, not revoked classification of the API Two-Cycle motor oil specifications (TA, TB, TC, TD). Being a very old standard itself, most currently produced 2T lubricants meet its specifications, even the lowest quality ones; current high-quality oils exceed them (often labeled "API TC+" although not based on actual measurements).
That said, no clue what oils you have available to you locally. State side, 2 stroke oils generally provide for fuel conditioning.
Be glad that you experience is good, I've seen sooo much problems that it's not even funny, and heard of even more.
That the oil will protect for things like corrosion etc isn't the same as it will keep the gas top notch.
Oils for things like racing doesn't really need that kind of additives as it's mixed when used.
09-18-2017, 09:46 AM
#35
My Feedback: (2)
Not going to even discuss racing, as few people flying RC are needing/wanting to get the last 1% of available power from their engines. It's too easy to just get a bigger or more powerful engine.
Engines with effective compression ratios in the area of 6.5 to 1 really don't require too much in the way of "top notch" fuel. That's how many get away with running super low octane white gas/Coleman camping fuel without issue.
Our lawn equipment generally drinks from the same fuel can the RC planes do to keep the fuel as fresh as possible. That equipment routinely sits for months at a time - and is expected to start and run as well as it did the day it was put away. My point is, that's exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases, even when taken to extremes. Like a chain saw that fires right up after sitting full of fuel for several years. If the fuel doesn't smell varnished, most often you're good to go!
Engines with effective compression ratios in the area of 6.5 to 1 really don't require too much in the way of "top notch" fuel. That's how many get away with running super low octane white gas/Coleman camping fuel without issue.
Our lawn equipment generally drinks from the same fuel can the RC planes do to keep the fuel as fresh as possible. That equipment routinely sits for months at a time - and is expected to start and run as well as it did the day it was put away. My point is, that's exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases, even when taken to extremes. Like a chain saw that fires right up after sitting full of fuel for several years. If the fuel doesn't smell varnished, most often you're good to go!
09-18-2017, 10:40 AM
#36
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Not going to even discuss racing, as few people flying RC are needing/wanting to get the last 1% of available power from their engines. It's too easy to just get a bigger or more powerful engine.
Engines with effective compression ratios in the area of 6.5 to 1 really don't require too much in the way of "top notch" fuel. That's how many get away with running super low octane white gas/Coleman camping fuel without issue.
Our lawn equipment generally drinks from the same fuel can the RC planes do to keep the fuel as fresh as possible. That equipment routinely sits for months at a time - and is expected to start and run as well as it did the day it was put away. My point is, that's exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases, even when taken to extremes. Like a chain saw that fires right up after sitting full of fuel for several years. If the fuel doesn't smell varnished, most often you're good to go!
Engines with effective compression ratios in the area of 6.5 to 1 really don't require too much in the way of "top notch" fuel. That's how many get away with running super low octane white gas/Coleman camping fuel without issue.
Our lawn equipment generally drinks from the same fuel can the RC planes do to keep the fuel as fresh as possible. That equipment routinely sits for months at a time - and is expected to start and run as well as it did the day it was put away. My point is, that's exactly what happens in the vast majority of cases, even when taken to extremes. Like a chain saw that fires right up after sitting full of fuel for several years. If the fuel doesn't smell varnished, most often you're good to go!
And does that mean that people isn't using racing oil for other things then racing? I've seen my fair share of people on forums that runs different types of racing oils in their RC equipment. (And no, I have no idea which of those oils might have contained some additive or not)
What has low compression to do with anything here, aren't we talking about if the gas goes bad?
And in any case, don't you think high compression and a strong ignition might actually be a better option to fire of some degraded gas? I mean, heat does wonders when you're trying to burn something usually.
Yes, you expect the equipment to start, right, doesn't most? Guess what, the local service shop is full of equipment like that. Things people doesn't expect to start any more is usually sent to the scrapyard.
Well, isn't it pretty obvious that if the chainsaw starts and the fuel doesn't smell bad, that you're probably good to go? But isn't it a slight difference if the chainsaw runs bad compared to a engine in your airplane?
I've heard people running two strokes without oil for long periods of time, and on all sorts of strange stuff that wasn't gas, but that not really the point...
It feels like I'm arguing with one of my X, zero logic and therefor no ability so see any reason to oneself or others... I'm out of this discussion!
09-18-2017, 10:57 AM
#37
In six weeks time, the fuel degrades enough that the specific gravity has changed quite a bit. Enough to change the air/fuel ratio of a carbureted engine by nearly one full point to the rich side. We've probably all seen an old two stroke motorcycle, chain saw, or weedeater smoke a lot when being started and run after sitting in storage. That's one of the reasons why.
Then there is something to consider with todays ethanol laced gas that nobody has brought up yet. The ugly specter of "Phase Separation". Look it up; it's death on a two stroke.
I keep asking the question...... Why take the chance with your equipment?? For the savings of 3 or 4 dollars??? Doesn't make sense!!
I too am out of this discussion. Good luck to all.
AV8TOR
Then there is something to consider with todays ethanol laced gas that nobody has brought up yet. The ugly specter of "Phase Separation". Look it up; it's death on a two stroke.
I keep asking the question...... Why take the chance with your equipment?? For the savings of 3 or 4 dollars??? Doesn't make sense!!
I too am out of this discussion. Good luck to all.
AV8TOR
Last edited by av8tor1977; 09-18-2017 at 11:08 AM.
09-18-2017, 11:51 AM
#38
My Feedback: (2)
Both of you are saying there are issues that might apply to running older fuel that's been mixed with oil, oil that I've proven (see above) contains a fuel conditioner, when run in our RC engines.
I'm calling BS..... but I'm going to put a reasonable limit on it. Let's say 6 months.
I'm calling BS..... but I'm going to put a reasonable limit on it. Let's say 6 months.
09-18-2017, 12:25 PM
#39
Can't resist one more. Rotax has been in business since 1920, and has built literally millions of two stroke engines, in use all over the world. They are likely the largest manufacturer of two stroke engines on the planet! I would chance to say they have a bit more experience than us. So why, WHY, would we ignore their recommendation of a 1 month limit on mixed fuel??
AV8TOR
AV8TOR
09-18-2017, 01:08 PM
#41
My Feedback: (2)
Can't resist one more. Rotax has been in business since 1920, and has built literally millions of two stroke engines, in use all over the world. They are likely the largest manufacturer of two stroke engines on the planet! I would chance to say they have a bit more experience than us. So why, WHY, would we ignore their recommendation of a 1 month limit on mixed fuel??
AV8TOR
AV8TOR
