Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

LOL - Thanks Terry !

How about something like this to keep us legit so that I don't get fired...

We've heard some explanations of the capabilities, and perhaps more importantly the differences in capabilities of the various fighters... do any of you know whether these differences "scale" with the design when RC models are involved ?

Gordon

bela

Eagle all the way baby! better power ratio, wing loading, higher alpha contol, instantaneous AND sustained turn rate when compared with even the updated f14d super tomcat.

When compared with the f-18 it loses in hi alpha contollability and slow flight, and as far as survivability, the pics of the f18s that collided and survived was impressive, but not as impressive as the eagle that had collided, lost one wing all the way to the root, and was brought back by its isreali pilot.
In a knife fight with a f-16........its better not to get too close, the f15 CAN win, but wont consider it fun. the f-15 will give you 10 g if u r man enuf to take it. (most arent) the f16 computer limits u to 9. usualy more than enuff. a technical marvel(f-14) will make the engineer feel good, but a quicker, tighter turning plane will make a fighter jock smile(afterwards) everytime. day or night.

Nowadays even the f16 is capable of beond visual range combat(bvr) so night/day isnt an issue. but often its just who the pilot was and his luck/mood/training/ at that particular moment.

as far as rc planes go, noone bothers to do scale power ratios so its a moot point. would be great to have a scale standard power ration to go with scale jets though wouldnt it?

beavertail

I saw the footage of the F-117 that they shot down, and it looked pretty real to me.

Shaun Evans

Well,

Yeah, they shot down an F-117, but it wasn't an air-to-air kill. Not that it matters. Cool thing, though, is that those Air Force PJs went in there and snatched up their guy with a quickness. They don't get nearly the press or glory as the other special forces groups, but they apparently can insert a boot or two into a butt or two when it becomes necessary, too.

Speaking of shooting down, with the exception of European modelers, I've not seen any antennas sticking out of scale jets over here. Where are you guys putting them? I've been using Deans base-loaded whips, but they stick out of the plane.

slushyF16

Bela, well put! One thing people tend to over-look is the Block 50 Viper, way better power to weight ratio than the Eagle (especially the old -100s). Additionally the Eagle is not a 10G airplane. Yes, it will do it, but then you are calling Code 3 for over G and they may scrap pieces of the jet depending on the duration. I've come home with 9.4-9.5Gs showing in a Viper, and a buddy came home with 10.2 (computer went slightly haywire). And yes, the Viper has AMRAAM, so we can club 'em like baby seals now too!

Oh, yea and RC

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

The F-14 is my favorite jet - but the BVR missile is no good - because the politicians will not let them be used in real combat.

Jackjet

Cowdog

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Has anyone ever had Phoenix missiles on their R/C F-14? I don't think I've recalled one that has had them on the plane in flight. I imagine too much drag and weight..

Speaking of the Phoenix.. was there ever any other plane that could carry/shoot the misssle besides the F-14?

Hank

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

Actually.. if you ask the guys that have been around that airplane a lot (a la John Redman), he'll tell you the wreckage of that F-117 looks remarkably similar to the one that broke up at the airshow back east a few years ago.. and that more than likely it wasn't shot down, but just suffered structural failure for one reason or another.

-Doug

Johng

My Feedback: (4)

My understanding - related from a viper crew chief was that the plane could be taken to 10g if some sort of auto-stabilization/auto-pilot was activated, so if the driver passes out, the jet will right itself.

Anyway, the F-15 as we know has a lot of effective wing area, which shows up in the way both FS and model fly. THe FS F-15E strike eagle is a great platform, but the guys who fly them curse all the way to the target if they are doing terrain-following because the light wing loading makes the ride in the plane very tough. Terrain following is best done with a higher wing loading, like the B-1, F-111. It's like a pickup truck, go over a bump empty and it bounces up and slams down, put 1000 lbs of concrete in back and the ride is much softer.

Most F-15 models that I've heard about are said to be real *****cats in the air for the same reason. Lot's of wing area - but that narrow gear can get you.

The F-14 had a lot of potential, but was held back by some cranky engines for most of its flying life. They were plagued by finicky behaviour as far as being prone to compressor stall, etc under certain conditions - some in the dogfight zone where you wouldn't want to have limits on what to do with the throttle. The F-14A+/ D has given the plane a much better high thrust engine and a whole lot more Cojones. With the new engines, vertical performance looks to be in the range of the Eagle. Should have been put on there a lot sooner.

It was also held back by the Military-industial complex, specifically, Grumman. What, you say? Why would they do that?
Here's the deal - the F-14 is very close to a perfect fit for a long range strike aircraft. It was developed from the same Navy requirements that drove the development of the F-111B ( not bought by the Navy). I believe the standard engine for the F-14 is the TF-30, same as the F-111 engine. So, why for the first 2 decades of the design life of the airplane was it commited to only doing "fleet defense"? Because you can make more money if you sell a dedicated fighter PLUS a dedicated bomber rather than a single multirole plane. Only in the last 10 yeas or so have the "bombcat" packages grown up and been implemented, only after Grumman lost all hope of putting out other dedicated planes like the cancelled A-12.

As for a model, the widely split engines on the F-14 will cause some unhappiness should an engine stop on takeoff or approach. Lots of yaw/roll would result, likely burying the plane.

Jackjet

My Feedback: (1)

Johng,

I have flown a RC F-14 with 2 OS91s and Dynamax fans -when 1 engine quit- the plane just slowed down - it did not yaw that much at all.

Jackjet

Johng

My Feedback: (4)

Well, I was talking about the low speed handling with one out. Having one engine die when up to speed is quite a different matter. Did you try to go around on one engine? :devious:

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Now Douggie-poooh, where di you get such a line. <VVBG> Interesting note is when you fly a totally non-defensive weapon system into a war zone and you "get shot down" why would you go back? Makes you think now doesn't it.

Anyways my vote would of course go to the "Viper". Probably the best deal the American Government ever did when it came time to procure a weapons system!! It is one tough to beat bird that has proven it can do it all.

As for the comment about our scale jets not having scale thrust to wieght ratios, think again my friend. Ours are on the average much better. If memory serves me correctly I was told a "D" model Tomcat would tip the scales at a little over 72,000 pounds set up for fleet deffense, and it only had 60,000 pounds of blow out the back. I have seen more than one of our scale jets with better than 1-1 T to W ratio.

No doubt that the Tomcat would be an awesome bird if done right for RC, but it would be big and heavy just like its mother. The Viper on the other hand would be a bird that would be much more manageable.

John Redman
Team BVM, Jet Cat USA

Former USAF Team Stealth member and "Black Jet Keeper"
as well as a former "Viper" keeper as well.

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

As compared to any piston twin, they're really not that widely separated. You would have some asymetric thrust to deal with but it should be very controllable with rudder. Oooh.. yet another reason to have that often little used control surface on our R/C models :-P

-Doug

slushyF16

JohnG, sorry, no auto-righting on ther Viper. Years ago, there was one death in particular where the family really pushed for it. The research was done, and the cost per jet came out to $25K. The gov't decided against it. Since then GLOC (G induced Loss of Conciousness) has killed several more guys. 9Gs is not a lot of fun! When you get lower in a big mouth 30, or a 50 (depending on entry speed) the jet will actually accelerate at 9 Gs and pull it till you pass out, or the jet runs out of gas!! Since GLOC had become an issue, the AF chose to really focus a great deal of training on it (centrifuge for everyone (what a torture device that POS is) etc). It will hit the 10G if something is wrong with accelerometer in the FLCS (flight controls). I've only seen it once (a buddy of mine hit 10.2)... I don't think it's that prevelant.

To answer an earlier question, no, the Phoenix is a TomCat specific weapon.

The AMRAAM is carried by a lot of folks (15s, 16s, 18s) and is one heck of a great missle. The nice thing about an AMRAAM is it can be used WVR (within visual range) VERY effectively.

Too rarely do you see AMRAAMs on models (see, I can drag this back to RC). They really are the weapon of choice for a lot of different scenarios, so it would up the scale factor. They days of 4 Papas (Aim-9s) on a Viper are long gone. If anyone is interested...the Aim-120s usually take up 1 and 9 (the wingtips), and then you will have another AMRAAM on 8 and a heater on 2, or two heaters on 2 and 8 (depending on the mission).

bela

No need to think again, as you have misunderstood the point, which was that there is no standard in rc for power to weight ratios, not that the rc version f-14 couldnt achieve a a realistic ratio. the fact is that most folks cram thier jets with whatever they can afford, and often this means ridiculously high ratios. and unscale speeds. a contest between a tomcat and say an eagle would yield no usable results since there was no hard power standard.

say for example the standard was a pound per1000 pounds per thrust....... and if all rc builders subscribed to this, then there would be a control basis to compare performance.

xplanexplane

Quotes from warplane classics
Eventually the two fighters did meet during exercise display determination in 1978 and then again during a port visit by USS Kiennedy to Barcelona in 1978. F-14s from vf-24 & vf-32 were deployed to zaragosa where they flew DACT sorties against F-15s from Bithburg. The two aircraft were closely matched, with the f-14’s RIO giving it the edge in complex multi-bogey engagements, and with the f-15s able to sustain higher
turn rates above 15000ft.
Today the tomcat may be overshadowed by purpose built air superiority fighter in theClose in maneuvering arena. The F-14 was once intended to destroy its targets in the Aeronautical equivalent of a down and dirty knife fight.
At mack 1.2 at 20,000 ft the f-14 can turn 9Gs at the same altitude the aircraft can turn 8Gs with 6 Phoenix missiles and two sidewinders that’s a 75,000 lb plane

As far as I now there have been no US f-14s lost in air-to-air combat. Iran is the only other country that has F-14s and lets face it if Iran had F-15s they would have been shout down to.
The f-14 does not depend on one weapon.
-fleet air defense 4 AIM-54 2 AIM-120 2 AIM-9 and a gun
-fleet air defense maximum aircraft range 6 AIM-120 2 AIM-9 and a gun
Grumman did not hold back the F-14. The F-14 was designed to be a fleet defense fighter. The F-111 is a bomber redesigned to carry the AIM-54 a fighter it was not.
In 1984 a contract was awarded to improve the F-14. It was not just new engines.
It was the development of a whole new aircraft. Then after the gulf war the navy realized that there was no room in the fleet for single role planes. Which lead to the bombcat and retirement of other aircraft.

TopGun teachs the crews of the F-14s how to fight and win against aircraft like the F-15 f-16 f-18 mig29 & su27 just like redflag does for the f-15
The best planes are useless with out proper tactics and pilots.

At the 2001 heart of ohio YA f-14 lost a tune pipe and than the engine on landing. The plane landed flawlessly. I have sine 5 YA F-14s fly and all beautifully.

Engines
f-15 f100pw100 25000ldst
f-14a tf30p412a 20900lbst
f-14a+bd f110ge400 25000lbst
refernce warplane classics the complete book of togun ameriacs topgun jane’s afa

xplanexplane

pic2

xplanexplane

pic1

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Hey Bela, you were right when you said I missed your point. As I went back and reread your post you are correct. I guess I am one of the few who do try to match the thrust to weight ratios, at least to a point. My BVM Mig tops the scales at 23 pounds 4 ounces dry and clears a little better than 28 pounds for takeoff full of fuel. My P-120 is set to a blistering 106,000 for full throttle. You have to fly the aircraft in a more scale way using the power during the entire flight instead of sticking it in just one spot.

John

Shaun Evans

John R's my hero......

bela

Hey John,


Wish there were more pilots like yourself in that way. Ive seen planes that were detailed down to the rivet, but had power ratios more in the realm of the space shuttle. saw what i thought was a stinger missle attack until he landed and i realized it was a spider jet f-16 a weeeeee bit over powered. LOL!

nightrider_rc

JSF baby!!! that thing can hover! and it can be piloted by one man b/c it has such a good fly-by-wire. real easy to fly. all computerized, semi-stelth. man that thing can shoot down anything currantly in the air!!!

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

JSF is indeed cool, but at this point it's a paper airplane. X-35A/B and X-35C were only demonstrators and couldn't even carry weapons. F-35A first flight is still about two years out. It's going to be cool when it arrives, but when it does, its mission is going to be down in the mud. The air superiority mission belongs to another airplane.

The king of the sky for the next 50 years will be the F/A-22 Raptor, assuming it doesn't go the way of the Commanche. Supercruise, supermaneuverability, stealth, & sensor fusion all in one airplane led the Air Force to re-think the concept of air superiority. F/A-22 is so superior to anything out there that it's now called "Air Dominance." Not just a political term. It's the truth. Take away this airplane and we're in a dead heat, or even a little bit behind, with the Eurodeltas & Sukhoi.

And now, to bring an old, old thread back to an R/C topic, does anybody have a status on the Yellow A/C Raptor?