Quintanius

Thank you all for posting your thoughts and ideas. This forum is most helpful, especially many of the links you post.

I’ve been a naval history buff for about 20+ some years now, but only stumbled upon the RC combat a few months ago, probably last year actually. Since then, I’ve devoted a fair amount of time and effort to understand this hobby and try to answer many of the questions I never knew I would have to ask. It’s been very educational.

I use Cad for my profession so I have a powerful tool at my disposal. Working with Architecture and Engineers and sometimes 3D graphics makes many of the building tasks elementary, as far as knowing how to deal with plans etc.

But, what I lack is experience. I build a lot of models, tinker with gadgets and miniatures, but I’m a complete novice in the RC spectrum of this hobby, especially the electronics and the CO2 delivery systems. Also, other than building the Sterling Missouri model, I have little or no actual ship-building experience.

When I built the Missouri hull, I was utterly disgusted with the hull they provided…nothing like the real deal. That killed the enthusiasm to build that kit right there. It’s just too fragile overall…

So I decided to do some research into this RC combat hobby. I love the solid construction of these nice hulls, shaped and furnished like the original. The attention to historical detail and accuracy honored by many clubs attracted my attention. So I started digging more.

Reading many posts of novices like myself, I quickly realized that much of the ground work needed to be done by myself, before I knew what I think I need to know to proceed and not bore you with minute details of what I thought or wanted to incorporate into the hobby. Not going there. I am not an electronic computer wiz, no very little about RC in general, and have only read what others have posted about the specifics of this hobby, such as the cannons, the pumps, the water channels, the building, repairing, salvaging, etc. No actual experience. And no club nearby up here in Alaska either…

But I’ll not let all these stones deter me from trying though.

So what I have is this:

1. Enthusiasm for Naval Warfare.
2. Enthusiasm for building exact scale models.
3. Enthusiasm for blowing ships up (going back to the days of building ships with wood and paper sails and throwing stones at them to sink them)
4. A set of plans at 1/400 scale of the HMS Rodney I wish to build with ribs, elevations and plan views, including cuts through the main superstructure.
5. Workspace and transportation ought to be fine.
6. Plenty of lakes and ponds up here in Alaska, though they tend to be deep and cold, and muddy from glacial silt.
7. No club at all, but several RC hobby stores…that cater to plane and car buffs.

I thought about 1/144 scale, even 1/72 scale, but decided to try the middle, 1/96 scale. Many of the plans we generate at work in the Architecture/Engineering field are 1/8” = 1’-0”, making this scale easy for me to work with.

I imported the pertinent rib sections into CAD, scaled them to 1/96, mirrored them, and traced over them. That’s where I’m stuck at the moment. The overall length will be 88.75”, with a beam of 13”.

The plans call for 27 ribs. That’s an average spacing of 3.2” per rib, but the actual spacing is broader at the body, and tighter at the stern and bow, as expected. In addition, several websites suggested various methods for spacing, thickness, and other parameters. What I need to figure out is:

1. How many more Ribs should I build and at what average spacing and thickness? (I thought about ¼” at stern and bow and ½” ply for main body ribs…)
2. Do I stack the ribs onto a slotted bottom and cut out the middle, stack them onto a keel and sheathe the bottom later, or a combination of both?
3. Do I use a water channel on top of the keel, or on top of the flat bottom, or a combination of both?
4. Can I use an aluminum C channel for the water channel, or just build it with wood? I thought soldering a metal screen on top of the C channel, and perhaps a layer of thin aluminum in the inside, on top of the slopes that guide the water to the channel – basically sheathing the inside bottom area with metal, including the bow and stern (solid) rib section.
5. How many ribs ought to have the top section (stringer?) left on them to facilitate hull structural integrity, handles, or area’s to support the deck?
6. What material is used for the hull below the penetrable area? Does one use heavier woods, like bass wood, or balsa that is covered with fiberglass and resin?

I’m very concerned about the height restrictions on the Cannons. I have no idea what the overall dimensions of those are. The guns seem to be the major vertical component. Everything else looks like it is either very small, or can fit in sideways, like the CO tank etc. Looking at the section, it measures out to 7.125” from the bottom of the hull to the top of the deck at 1/96 scale. That’s the absolute max space available, minus the ¼” for the hull bottom and ¼” for the deck, leaving me 6.625” inches in between the ribs or with ribs cut out.

But how deep should the water channel be? ½” or 1”?

How large of an area should I provide for the pump to fit into?

Should I build a square or round collection point, or does the pump fit into the width of the water channel?

Do I build the ship upside-down, or right side up? Some suggest one and some the other method.

I was planning on buying a 2” by 14” board, 8 feet long for the dry-dock. Some sites suggest to drill holes for pegs or screws to hold the rubber bands. That sounds like good advice. I printed out the 1/96 full scale rib spacing plan, which I thought of tacking to the board so that I lay out the ribs etc. As an afterthought, I had traced the stern and bow curvature in cad, offset the stern piece for sheathing to but up to the first main body rib, where I thought to either start the keel or the water channel. I read that the stern or bow can be solid, up to 10-15% of the ship length, depending on the club. Is it legal to protect the bow edge with a piece of light aluminum to protect the wood from collisions? Like a V shape epoxy’ed and embedded flush over the carved solid bow piece?

For the deck, do you use real wood, stained, painted, or something else entirely?

For the recovery line; it seems to me that incorporating some sort of tie-down, ring, or bracket early in the construction phase to the keel may be a good idea, such as near the bow solid rib/keel/bow piece. That ought to be solid real state. Considering the length, width, and height of this hull, it ought to hold about 5,400 cu/inch of water.

5,400 cu/in / 231 = 23.4 gal * 8.3 = 194 lbs…yikes

That’s a lot of water – never mind the actual vessel. How do you get that out of the water? Granted, only the pressure, friction and actual mass (maybe buoyancy helps a bit) but, once you get a ship to the surface…then what? But I guess that is subject to another discussion, but thought to keep that in mind…after all that’s the overall idea.

In any event, thank you for any suggestions you may have that will help be get started on this project. I’ve thought and planned various alternatives as to how to build this hull, and hope to try out some of the methods described in various articles. But I’d like to hear something more current from skippers that been there done that.

Thanks again…

Thomas

darkapollo

Hmm, I dont run 1/96, but a lot of the questions can be answered by anyone.

I would think that a 1" WC down the spine would be sufficent. Most water pumps/billage pumps fit in the water channel.

You cannot put a metal bow on, for safty reasons mostly. Richochets off of it could be REALLY painful.

Most decks are made of wood, some are fibreglass, all depends on your taste.

194lbs water logged sounds about right for the bigger ships, Im not sure if you were planning on making a Missouri or the HMS Rodney that you spoke of. The Missouri will be about 8' long, my New Jersey in 1/144 is 6'2" and will probably weigh upwards of 60lbs with equiptment and armor/armiments, dry weight. I DO NOT want to imagine what she will weigh loaded down with water in her belly.

I will retire the floor to a more knowlegeable skipper, Umi?

BTW Welcome to the addiction! [sm=drowning.gif]

johnmCA72

Holy cow!!

The answer to most of your questions is, "Yes" - because there are often many ways to get a particular thing done.
If you're not going to sailing or fighting with others, you get to pick the scale - & all the other rules, for that matter.
Don't forget to leave an offset for the thickness of your hull. The hull lines you've traced represent the outer surface. Subtract your hull thickness to get rib patterns.
As many as you (think you) need. In the hull sections that you copied, there were more sections shown at areas where the form changes most significantly. In the midship area, the change in shape as you go forward or back is less drastic, so you don't get as many sections. There may be a range of length where the sections are identical, even. Most clubs use a minimum, such as 3" spacing for 3/8" ribs. Under such rules, you can space ribs wider, just not narrower.
This is one of those "Yes" questions. You can do whatever makes sense to you. One common method of building larger ships is to start with a "baseboard", that represents the flat bottom of the ship. Notch out the ribs so that the baseboard fits, and glue them on. When set, cut out the center area. See http://www.rcwarships.com for a good explanation of this method.
Again, "Yes", if that's what you want to do. If you use the baseboard method, it's pretty easy to build up the areas around the water channel with balsa, plywood, or any other material that comes in sheets. I've also used expanding spray foam, which is a little messy & doesn't look too nice.
I wouldn't bother with C channel. I've seen where people have built "inverted soffets" on either side of the water channel, & either filled them up (with something like expanding foam) or just sealed them well.
Whatever you feel is appropriate, from zero on up. Most larger ships have a couple, on either end of the area where your batteries, gas bottle, etc. go. Make sure they don't interfere with the turrets, or your ability to get your hands in to work on the turrets - or clearance for anything else that needs to be removed, worked on, etc.
Whatever you want, feel comfortable working with, or have a lot of laying around.
Picking 1:96 scale helps a lot. Most larger ships, in 1:144 scale, don't have much trouble. By choosing a larger scale, you've given yourself more room to work with.
It doesn't need to be terribly deep. I usually make mine about 3/8", because I often use 3/8" balsa sheet to build up around it. The point of the water channel is only to keep water from spreading out into a thin, shallow sheet that the pump can't pick up. Water will flow to the lowest level, & if the area of that lowest level is reduced, a particular volume of water will have a higher level & allow the pump to prime more easily.
Big enough to fit the pump. Much more kind of defeats the purpose of the water channel.
Whatever you feel comfortable building. Keep in mind that, if you spread out the channel to accomodate a wide pump, you'll need to take on more water to get to a level where the pump can prime than if you use a narrow channel, that opens up to the width of the pump. Assuming the pump's impeller housing is round, a round pump well would be more efficient than a square one, but maybe not by enough to cause a problem if you're not comfortable building a round well.
Whatever's comfortable for you, & gives you the access you need. There are probably going to be times that you'll need to work in either orientation.
I don't know what rubber bands you're talking about. Generally, you have to align everything referened to 3 planes: The center line (vertical, longitudinal), the water line (horizontal), and each rib (vertical, lateral). How you do that is up to you. I usually like to use jigs when I build with frames, to keep each rib square with these 3 planes.
If it's your club, you can define impenetrable area any way that you want to. The only material that any club actually specifies is for the penetrable areas. For those areas that are impenetrable, really, who cares? It's a matter of builder's preference.
"Yes", except that I've never used stained wood. I've used mostly plywood, but the last ship I build used ABS sheet. The stuff was a joy to work with, & also isn't going to warp anytime soon.
Definitely a good idea about the line anchor - the last thing you want to do is pull up nothing but an empty screw-eye at the end of your line! Consider where you want your float to be, & place your anchor near that point. Try to keep your line in an area where it won't interfere with anything, wrap around prop shafts, etc.
It can take a little pulling, sometimes, to get a hull free of the mud on the bottom. Some people believe that it's best to pull up the stern 1st, to free the screws & rudder(s) to prevent damage - I can't find much fault with that idea, plus I think it's probably easier to pull them up out of the mud than try to drag them through it.
A ship full of water, submerged, really only weighs it's own weight, minus whatever buoyancy the materials have - certainly, somewhat less than the weight that you carried from bench to the water. After it's been broken loose from the bottom, it's usually pretty easy to pull it up to the surface. Often, it's easiest to drag it to shallow water near shore before proceeding, especially larger ships.
Once the ship is raised to the surface, pull one end out of the water to let it drain. If you pull a ship full of water out all at once, you're probably going to blow some hull plating out, which means that much more to have to repair.
You might want to break your questions up into individual topics. It'll be easier for people to respond.

JM

Quintanius

Thanks JM and sorry about that. Did not realise I had typed that long of a post.

According to your responses, It seems that I may be on the "right" track, or at least parallel to it. Lately - I may have not payed that much attention to this before now - I read alot of "warping" in articles, posts etc. Let me break my thoughts into seperate questions:

1. Does one just coat every nook and cranny with resin to waterproof the wood?

2. Can I use cheaper (regular) plywood instead of marine grade? That stuff is really expensive, and only available in large sheets.

3. Do I need to worry about having to remove the stuffing box(s) at some point in the future? Considering its pretty well locked in place by supports, holes, resin etc...that could take some serious effort.

4. The pump. Center is or place it aft? Build a containment or collection point that is shallower by perhaps 1/4" than the channel, would that help to prime the pump and get ahead of the water displacement?

5. Where is the pump discharge nozzle typically located?

6. Should I think of building individual gun platforms (bases) for each gun (I'm planning on building the HMS Rodney) or all of them together on the same base?

7. What is the weight ratio of the bridge vs the hull and its components to avoid oscilation? Should I build the bridge of closed cell foam, wood planks, pvc, masonite? I've concentrated on the hull up until now, but since the upper deck weight will influence the weight and or materials used...not sure If I'm jumping ahead here.

I'll keep this post short and stop here, but I have tons of more questions. I'm compiling a list of idea's, alternatives, and variations for future use...I'm seriously debating about getting some people interested beside myself - a must if I wish to actually battle someday. Are there any active 1/96 clubs in the US...preferably in the NW region?

Thank you again for your kind reply...

TH

Umi_Ryuzuki

1. A coat of laquer or thinned epoxy resin can be used to coat "every" wood part if you want.

2. I have used ACX plywood for frames, and three ply door skin the main deck.

3. I have never had to remove my stuffing tubes, and the DD is 18 years old at this point.

4. I place my pump aft, just ahead of the engines. However it depends more on where the water pools in the ship. Mine has a tendancy to run to the stern while under way. I have seen others with pumps in the bow.

5. I prefer a nice outlet out the side of the boat rather than straight up in the air like a whale spout.

6. Build what you can make work best. I have seen it done too many ways to describe.

7. Always make your boat as light as possible. Especially above the waterline and weather deck.
It is easy to add weight to the boat, it is a difficult chore to remove weight. I always end up counting grams trying to add new equipement, and take out dead weight that was built into the boat.

[8D]

Quintanius

Thanks Umi.

What size motor should I use? The Rodney has 2 props, and they measure out to about 2"dia. on the plan set at 1/96 scale. I found a dealer that makes 3 bladed props at that size, but with 1/8" dia bore for the shaft. Is this common? Seems a little puny for that size of propeller...and how does one scale the nautical speed down to this particular scale anyway? And when that is known, how does one measure and adjust the speed of the scaled ship to perform "in scale"?

TH

darkapollo

Scale speed is measured over 100' typically a 25knt boat will do say 22-25 seconds 0-100'

http://www.ircwcc.org/manual/ <- good place for info on building things too.

Quintanius

Ohh...that was a very good link. Did not realise that non-penetratable (for bow and stern) included the ribs in the 15% of total length rule. I thought to use 1/2" ribs for the main body for strength (the body is 13" wide and 6.5" deep) and 1/4" ply for the bow and stern ribs. At 88.75" devided by 27 ribs (provided by plan set) makes this 0.49305" per rib...so well below the 15% rule if over half, probably 2/3 of the ribs are 1/4". Hmm...should I use 3/8" for the main body ribs, and space them closer? Some of the rib to rib dimensions are at or about 4" O.C.

TH

johnmCA72

It also makes it easier for others, both now & in the future, that might be following along, to locate a particular topic if it's not buried in with a mass of other topics. Each of your questions is worthy of a topic in its own right.
That's a really good idea, in theory. In practice, water will find any pinhole, no matter how tiny. I usually give it a couple of coats of thin epoxy when I use wood.
I don't know that there is any such thing as "maring grade" plywood anymore. I haven't seen any in decades. So, I guess the answer again is "Yes". When I use plywood, I usually get the stuff that's available at hobby shops rather than lumber yards, if possible. The hobby shop stuff has more layers, & doesn't splinter as much.
I sure hope not! Mine are all anchored into the hulls to the point where they'd have to be chiseled out. I can't imagine why they'd ever have to be removed, unless I happened to discover that they're in the wrong place - & even then, they'd have to be pretty far off (they've been close enough, so far). That said, there is an occasional need to remove the shafts to clean & lube. That's pretty easy - just pull them out, & fill the tubes with grease (I use a hypodermic).
Wherever it fits best. Some things are going to have to be put in certain places. The guns, obviously, need to go where they go. Batteries, being the heaviest thing, need to go where they keep the ship balanced. CO2 bottle usually only fits 1 place, +/- an inch or 2 fore/aft. Motors, you sometimes have some flexibility with placement, but there's usually no compelling reason to bring them way forward & you don't want too long of shafts inside, so they usually end up well aft. I've found that I usually end up with a convenient spot for the pump aft of the batteries, between the motors - about 2/3 of the way from the bow, just before the point where the hull starts to turn upward.
Wherever it's convenient. I've run them out through the main deck, aimed off to the side. Sometimes, this can be a minor pain, if you have to take that deck section off for some reason. I've got a couple of ships where I've run it straight out the stern, through an impenetrable part of the hull.
As luck would have it, I have a HMS Nelson, myself! I mounted all 3 turrets on a common plate, along with regulators & rotation motor. 1 common gas line feeds them all, plus 1 each for firing A/B & firing X, so there's only 3 gas lines (quick-connects) & 2 servo leads (rotation & elevation) to connect/disconnect. The whole platform works as a unit in or out of the ship, which is handy for maintenance.
I have no earthly idea. Oscillation is dampend by putting a large weight a long distance from the axis of rotation, but you're limited by the scale dimensions. In general, put the heavy stuff as low in the hull as you can, & things will take care of themselves.
The lighter the better, the higher up. I used to build all my superstructures out of balsa blocks, stacked on top of each other, with 1/16" plywood for decks. Last ship I built, I did it out of ABS, framed with angles & sheeted with 0.030" (above 02 deck) & 0.060". I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, both in terms of weight & looks. Jury's still out on damage resistance, as it hasn't had much battle time yet. It took a lot more work than I usually like to put into a superstructure (that's just going to get shot all to heck, anyway), but I'm hoping/expecting it to hold up long enough to be worthwhile in the long term.
I don't know about 1:96, but there are a fair number of 1:72 up there - see: http://www.nwlink.com/~pfleming/

JM

johnmCA72

As the owner of a well-worn 1:144 HMS Nelson, let me interject the following: My props are a bit smaller - I don't know the size off-hand - also 3-bladed, with 1/8" bore. I use 1/8" brass rod for prop shafts, Mabuchi RS-540 motors with 1/8" shafts. All the same, from motors to props, which keeps it easy - nothing to adapt from 1 size to another.

Most clubs publish speed charts, showing what the scale speed should be in terms of seconds to traverse 100'. If I'm not mistaken, it's calculated by using the square of the scale. When looking for speed charts, consider that the small gun formats (IRCWCC & MWC) generally go pretty fast. Our club uses an electronic device with fixed laser beams & detectors a known distance apart. Ships drive through the beams, breaking one, then the other. The time between beam-breaks, devided by the distance between, is converted to scale knots & displayed.

Getting them to run slow enough can be a challenge. In the old days, it was customary to place a rheostat in the motor circuit. Now, electronic speed controls are smaller, lighter, cheaper, & waterproof. End point adjustment is a feature to look for on a radio - you can use it to set your maxium throttle position electronically, so if you're in the ballpark to start with, you can fine-tune your speed. To get in the ballpark, you've got to have the right combination of propeller diameter, blade surface area, blade pitch, & RPM. Motor choice & voltage get your RPM; sometimes a reduction is necessary, which can be done easily enough with chain/sprockets, belt/pulleys, or gears. Gears can be noisy, & don't like to be misaligned at all. Belt/pulleys are quiet, but you can get stuck with the wrong length of belt. Chain is noisier than belt, quieter than gears, tolerant of misalignment, & easy to reconfigure by adding/removing links - that's my favorite. Maybe I'm lucky, but I seem to be able to get it right without having to resort to science & math. I generally run Mabuchi RS-540 motors on 6V, scale props at the shallowest pitch I can get them, & about a 3:1 reduction - it usually comes out pretty close regardless of ship.

JM

darkapollo

I think we should start a new thread for this info.

Quintanius

Thanks for all the support gentlemen. Very much appreciated. It’s been a very productive Labor Day Weekend. I bought a bunch of plywood, printed all the ribs on 11/17 sheets, cleaned the garage and set up a 4x8 work are; rolled out my full size plan-set I printed at 1/96 scale, and started measuring and thinking.

Most rules seem to allow 15% non-penetrable area, with 8% for the bow and stern. Just about all the ribs were at 4” centers, so I had to add a significant amount. I think there were 27 ribs shown, and I had to produce another 13-15 or so. Most, if not all are at 2” OC now, except where the plans have a few more and closer at the stern, to get the curvature right. The stern and bow solid sections are marked, the water channel location penciled in, and a few spots for 3/8” ribs measured out where I (think) I want the deck sections to be (so the edges can rest on top of a rib) - turns out that there are several tie-downs, in pairs, along either side. I’ll use those locations for the deck-section screws (those round heads with a hex-hole).

It’s amazing what seems to creep up while figuring out what and where to put stuff. Where is the prop-shaft; where does it penetrate and how many ribs; up to which rib will the water channel run to; what space do I have after I take of X” for the width of the rib sections, and so on. I really need to start ordering and finding some hardware, so that I have an idea where to put stuff, and how much space and all.

But, until then, back to the ribs. I ended up with a good stack of ripped strips of 6-5/8” plywood for the ribs, cut them down a bit so that I get good spacing, and spray glued them on. Looked nice, having all those planks laid out with all the rib contours pasted on. Then I pulled out my scroll saw, hooked up the vac, and started cutting.

I’ll try to post some photo’s later, but I’m certain most of you have been there done that for many vessels. It’s been very challenging just getting to this point. Once you start dishing out dollars for a hobby, it actually starts getting a bit scary, especially when you have little experience in that particular type of construction…but it’s great fun all in all.

Question: How do I mark the location for the stringers I want to use to strengthen the Non-Penetrable area of the hull bottom? Do they curve with the hull, or do they follow a horizontal line? The idea is to notch the ribs and connect them from bow to stern right? But how far apart should they be?

I set up the ribs so I can notch them and mount them on a flat bottom plate. But I did not leave enough room at the deck level for a notch…I cut them at the base of the plate. So I thought that glue some channels on the bottom of the cap-rail with 1/8” solid wood strips for the ¼” ribs to fit in, offset about ½” or so from the skin of the boat, so as not to add to the penetrable area…

Question: How do I keep the whole thing (ribs, bottom and top plate) from warping and misaligning during the construction process? Is there something I ought to build? Or run temporary bracing? At 8ft long…I’m afraid of getting a crooked hull…

Thanks,

TH

johnmCA72

In general, you should err on the side of penetrability. Take 15% as the minimum, but if it's convenient to do more, then do more.

I don't use any stringers myself except where there's a vertical change in the direction of the hull line (like at the top of a torpedo blister, for ex.). In the impenetrable area, you can do whatever you want because it's - impenetrable.

I always use some kind of a jig. It can be something as simple as a squared-true block of wood, that's clamped onto the workbench, that a rib can in turn be clamped onto.

JM

Littlehui

hey, i suggest that this post can be change title to "Tutorial for Beginers-Ameture"

darkapollo

Done.

Littlehui

Hi, can anyone explain and show to me the major parts for a complete combat warship?
And also thier specific names/technician name
Also the basic concept of a warship design and facts to be consider...
THx!

I Think i will mov to Q/A tread...

Harquebus

Since it appears you are leaning towards a non-combat scale warship as another suggested, I would recommend the 1/200 scale Nichimo Yamato. It is a 51" long (if I recall correctly) plastic kit of the mighty WWII battleship in plastic.

Plenty of room in the hull for turret activation, a smoking unit and lower power airsoft (6mm BB's) cannons could be fitted into the main guns. Kit contains a gearbox that can use one motor to turn the 4 propellers. Many have converted this kit to R/C although it may have been originally intended for motorized operation only (it is an old kit).

-Harq

aircoffee

Axis Scum?!? I'm a neutrul ship, on sea trials, totally defenseless, and I got attacked by the HMS Warspite and the HMS Lion. The ARA Rivadavia was considering the Allied side, but such a treacherous attack, demands future revenge!! haha Actually, I was asking for it,......and I got it too!!

battlecruiser7319

Your "boat" looks nice. I started to build one in the seventies, but stopped with about 20% to go. I did get the RC gear, motor and speed control hooked up. I floated it a few times. I haven't done a thing to it since around 1982 or so. I lost the fold out drawing and the instruction booklet. I am looking for a copy of them so that I can finish the thing. Do you still have the items mentioned above? I will be glad to pay you for a copy.Thanks.