SPC Racing

And do you do this testing for a living?
As soon as I see Microsoft sharing their test R&D with the public or Associated opening their doors to everyone, I'll follow your suggestions. Actually, I'm now sorry I tried to share any of my testing here.

studysession

SPC -
Don't be sorry. I have learned from both yours and Access's and others commenting and postings here. That and it's just been a good debate on the topics even though I am unsure if what the OP asked was fully answered. Either way still - great conversation.

Access

I don't, I do it as part of the hobby. Generally only during rainy weekends or stuff like that.

I know people have to make a living and put food on the table, honestly if that's what it is I'm fine with it. There are pleanty of things I do also that I don't necessarily talk about or release publically. But if you want to be a positive part of the hobby, it helps to do that.

Otherwise it comes across like "I've looked at the data and the data shows this. But I can't show you any of the data I used to make my conclusions. I can't show you how I got the data or help you get the same data. Just take me on my word." I wouldn't bring it up either unless I was ready to go all the way and release all the data myself (b'cos you know someone will ask and then it's basically me asking people to take me on 'my word'). Not on the internet at least.

studysession

Access -
You have great points but at same time I respect that SPC is a company and why he would need to keep that information close-hold.

burnineyes

I can understand not posting testing procedures, as they could be the new trick that other companies only wish they had. But unless there is rules about him posting results here I dont see what it would hurt, it would sure make me re-consider my thoughts on the subject at the least. But I am not a business man in any situation similar to this, so I could be missing something obvious to others.

SPC, as for the new technology batteries, have you seen the Lithium Air batteries? Apparently they use ambient air as the cathode material. The battery brings in the air and transforms it into electricity. Still reading about it so forgive me if I sound like an idiot, but they look like they could be really nice.

Access

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_Air_battery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal-a...ochemical_cell

burnineyes, in business a 'test house' can exist at several different levels. For instance a battery distributor may contract out a test house in order to find the best battery source for it to brand and sell to its customers. The distributor pays the test house for these services, in exchange for the results (data). The test house signs almost certainly signs a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) prohibiting it from releasing that information to anyone other than them.

Or a battery distributor may have its own internal test house to determine what manufacturer's batteries they should brand and sell. They have to keep this information as secret as possible b'cos it gives them a competitive advantage over other distributors.

Even a battery manufacturer may contract out the test house in order to rate its own batteries over time, do quality control, or determine if a new process yields a significant improvement. Again this would be done for payment and you can be assured an NDA would be in place. If the test house were to violate the NDA and make the data public, the legal consequences can be really bad, not to mention the damage to their reputation in the field.

And finally, in the commercial world, test houses compete with other test houses for this type of business (some of which is described above). The principles you encounter in business can be, in many ways, completely opposed to what makes good science, ie. open documentation, published procedures, theories, hypothesis, peer review, experimental duplication, etc.

monsterbombs

i would like to see my kong power battery tested [8D]
just for curiosity.

john01374

During the week we decided to do a little impromptu test session of our own. This is in no way scientific but we where curious. I have a VXL bandit. It's all stock except for a 35T pinion that I swap on for speed runs and a set of buggy hawg rear tires.

I pulled out a 2 of my 3S 5000 Zippys. A friend brought 2 of his 3S 5250 MA packs and I ran my well used 3S 5000 MA pack. To keep things fair all we did was swap the different batteries it the car and make runs at my buddies squad car. Each pack got 3 runs at the radar.

First was my old 3S MA. This thing has 300+ cycles on it and has been lame since I bought it. Max Speed 49.3 mph
Zippy pack #1 - 3S 5000 with appox 150 cycles on it. Max speed 68.3 mph
Zippy pack #2 - 3S 5000 with appox 60 cycles on it. Max speed 67.1 mph

MA #1 - 3S 5250 - Cycles unknown. Guessing around 40 - Max speed 67.4 mph
MA #2 - 3S 5250 - Cycles unknown. Again guessing around 40 - Max speed 63.1 mph. Note: this pack seemed to have the least punch of the new packs and felt very much like my old 3S 5000. Except for the first couple of feet there was no problem with wheelies with this pack even with the throttle pegged

Motor temps never exceeded 160F as the air temps here are cold. A quick switch back to Zippy pack #1 brought speeds back in the 68mph range so we know know we didn't hurt anything and affect the results. . In each case the car was topped out well before the end of the run so we feel we where getting the max out of each pack.

srt10

My Feedback: (20)

What C rating were those packs?
good stuff

rebuilder

So...........a Zippy with 150 cycles beat a 40+/- cycle maxamps(?) at 1/4 the cost................

Access

What you really want to look at is 'punch' or hard acceleration. This is where the most current is drawn, so this is where the different will be more noticeable. In most cases.

As cells age, the internal resistance rises. With LiPo, a 5-year life is rather typical. So, age of the battery can be just as important as the number of cycles.

Even if all you have is a speed gun, you can still measure punch to some degree by shortening the length of the run (so the truck passes the guy holding the gun before reaching top speed). Then, the top speed measured will be more dependent on acceleration rather than the raw top speed of that truck.

studysession

I have the original bandit that I used to use for testing new brushless motors when I got them. The newer bandit looks more stable than the original. Mine - anytime I got over 50MPh (I have my own radar gun) I would crash the damn thing.

studysession

I have never heard of that brand. Do you have a link and maybe to other brands you also mentioned in earlier posts?

I too would be curious if you sent SPC your battery for testing, what the results would be.

burnineyes

http://www.kongpower.com/faq_en/show...t01=&srhTxt02=

I would not recommemd sending anything for testing unless you dont want or need it. If its strictly testing purposes only then I would, but not a bettery you plan to keep and use in your RC.

studysession

Thanks for the link

john01374

SRT10 - My 3S Zippys are the 25C packs

Rebuilder - Yeah the Zippys where faster on the top end for about 1/4 the cost.

Access - I agree that punch counts as much as top speed but with these packs it was almost impossible to get consistent launches. The only pack that would allow a good launch was the old 3S 5000. It wouldn't wheelie regardless of how I launched it. Both Zippys and the one good MA pack would pull the wheels up pretty much anytime you liked. Just blip the throttle a little and it was on it's lid. It was hard to measure punch but all but two packs had more than could be used.

srt10

My Feedback: (20)

I've heard nothing but good about those Kong packs..

burnineyes

I found one really cheap on ebay awhile back. I ended up selling it in a package with a car, but I used it 20-30 cycles and it worked perfect, stayed balanced.

MCSRacing

My Feedback: (2)

man burningeyea .... SPCRacing is Spec Point Concepts .... they sell batterys, i really dont believe they would take your battery and use it in their cars instead of their own. they are a reputable company and have been around for years. not everyone on this forum is a lil kid possin.

burnineyes

I really dont expect that they would use my batteries in their cars either. I hope I didnt come off as saying they would.
But if you want to send your hard earned packs to him and let him pull 100A continuous you go right ahead, Ill keep my batteries in their shrink wrap thank you.

srt10

My Feedback: (20)

specially if our packs pull more amps than theirs...
I to will keep mine to my self...

Access

The real problem is standardization / documentation. He might have the best test in the world, constant current load and everything, but there is no way to repeat it yourself. Sure you can build an equivelent circuit, given enough time and research, but do you as a hobbyist have the time and expertise to do that? He's not making it any easier by trying to keep it a secret, "keep the black box black" as one might say.

So while hobbyists keep running simpler tests than his, it's not as easy to compare that data between the two. This isn't too much of a bad thing right now since he makes it reasonably easy to get data with his offer. But what happens in the future? Hobbyists could collect a wealth of data through his 'black box' test and use it for comparison's sake. But pretty much all that data will become useless if he disappears from this part of the 'net or decides he no longer wishes to perform the test for hobbyists. In 3-5 years, a bunch of newer batteries that presumably outperform the current day ones are out.

From a scientific standpoint the motivation is always to detach yourself or your group of experimenters from the experiment as much as possible. Such that any other person/group can repeat the experiment and get the same result. People come and go all the time, so research as a whole needs to be able to survive the coming and going of a person. And peer review or repetition is an important thing in science.

srt10

My Feedback: (20)

[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]
oh boy, in other words.. I'm not sending my sweet lipos to someone!

MCSRacing

My Feedback: (2)

why not just use a gfx35 and the results should be good to go