Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

Just thought I'd put this out there since I've gotten a few questions about it. For those of you who have the FPE 2.4 gasser with the Ridge Machine (really a Reichtmuth) ignition, there is an upgrade available from C&H Electronics or from FPE themselves. The basic ignition has a fixed timing of about 18 degrees. The reason for such mild timing is to compromise between keeping it from biting when starting and keeping the idle from being too rough. However, there's a penalty in power output at full throttle and the idle is still not as smooth as it can be. The upgrade comes with a new prop hub (allows for 28 degree timing at full throttle) and a C&H Syncro-Spark ignition unit. The benefit is about 600-700 RPM's at full throttle and a smoother idle. With a 20X10 prop, the 600-700 RPM increase is substantial. My first FPE 2.4 came with the standard ignition. It ran great with plenty of power, but after the upgrade, WOW! If you have the extra cash, I recommend it highly. I bought my second 2.4 with the upgrade already installed. The FPE 2.4 with the ignition upgrade probably has the best power to weight ratio of all the 2.4 gassers out there.

By the way, if you want an extra 100-200 RPM's, plug one of the muffler down-tubes. If you're skeprical, put on a heavy glove and get your tach out and carefully cover one of the pipes while noting the RPM change. <BG>

Lew

Do you have the part number and cost of the upgrade? Maybe a link!!!!!!!!!!

Lew

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

Here's the web site for C&H Electronics: http://www.ch-ignitions.com However, they don't show the upgrade on their site.

When I ordered mine back in May of 2001, the cost was $143.60 including shipping. My invoice does not show a part number for the whole kit. The syncro-spark single ignition with 14mm rubber boot has a stock number of 126. The prop hub, which looks exactly like the original (except for magnet position), shows a stock number of "Misc". I'm pretty sure that C&H gets the prop hubs from FPE directly. As for ordering the engine with the upgrade already installed, I believe it was a $75 increase in the overall cost of the engine.

You may want to contact FPE for the upgrade. Their web address is: http://www.fpengines.com/ Maybe Kurt will give you a better deal. Somehow I doubt it though.

kevin mcgrath

My Feedback: (1)

What a shame that FPE would comprimise the 2.4 design and not go all the way with a variable timing ignition.Is it just cost or am I missing something?
I must disagree on the power to weight comment too.Here are the figures published by SIG on the FPE and RC showcase on the ZDZ 40cc.
FPE....48 oz with muffler and ignition,18lb thrust on a 20x10 @6800rpm.
ZDZ....52oz with ignition but no muffler,25.79lbs thrust on a 20x10 @7400rpm (RCS show some test parameters on this thrust figure on their website)
I dont know what the weight of a side mount muffler of the type that comes with the FPE would be but it would not offset the distinct thrust advantage the ZDZ claims to have.
I would expect the ZDZ to outperform FPE on the basis of the higher compression ratio they use,and the reat rotor intake,but who really knows if the figures any manufacturer uses are accurate?
Price comparison goes heavily in favor of ZDZ which lists the engine at $410 plus probably about $50 for a Bisson side mount muffler.The FPE lists at $500 including the muffler,but adding the CH unit brings it up to a staggering $625 just to approach matching the ZDZ performance level.....

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

Sorry, guys, I can't sit here and read this stuff without some comments...It's really hard to believe someone would intentionally time an engine retarded, for any reason..
First..I have been making ignitions for 15 years, so I have some knowledge in the areas of cost and function..
The original Reichmuth ignitions used two sensors, one for low speed and the other for starting..Somewhere areiund 3000 rpm the circuit switched timing to full advance, around 28 degrees..
Ridge Machine is now making ignitions, designed by Dan and possibly modified..The D&B twins have the ignitions inside the mount, like I have been doing for 15 years..Dan Reichmuth sent me a design many years ago to put his ignition circuit inside my mounts..I declined.
Parts is parts..There are only so many components in a circuit..If FPE wanted to use C&H ignition as their OEM ignition, the cost would not be significantly greater, if at all, so there is no reason to have to upgrade to something else that is more costly..If FPE is using a fixed timing circuit they could buy Syncro Spark units from C&H and put them in series with their circuit, set it at 28 degrees, and do it forn $39.95, the cost of the Syncro Spark unit from C&H...
There is no reason an owner can't take the hub off, take the key out, and rotate the hub 10 degrees to get 28..A small engine runs just fine with fixed timing..How many G23s, G38s, and Quadra and US Engines, 35,41, and 42cc, and Q50s, and many others, have variable timing ??..
The key on the crankshaft has no function other than to locate the hub for assembly..The fit between the taper and the hub is what keeps things from turning..My 30 hp Herbrandson race engines have no key, just a small long taper..The hub is impossible to remove without a special puller and some elbow grease..It take a few minutes to time an engine, so using a key is a no brainer and allows fast assembly...

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

rcign,

The timing is not retarded. It just isn't advance all the way to 28 degrees. Forget about the 2-sensor Reichtmuths. The stock ignition is not that design. If you're in the RC gas engine ignition industry, you probably know the folks at C&H and possibly Kurt (the owner) at FPE. They both refer to the "Ridge Machine" ignition as a "Reichtmuth". There must be some reason for that. As far as cost and function, obviously as a consumer, I'd like to get the best bang for the buck. Kurt told me that the 2.4 is produced with the fixed timing/simple ignition to keep costs down. I've talked with Kurt a few times. I have nothing but good things to say about the customer service I've gotten from him. I just don't have the feeling that he's not being truthful about the cost issue.

By the way, the shaft where the hub attaches is not tapered like most other engines. So the key is absolutely necessary. Maybe you'll get a chance to actually see one of these engines sometime. You'll understand better what I'm talking about then.

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

Kevin,

I bet the specs you're referring to on the FPE are based on the stock ignition. I don't know what the "thrust" numbers would be with the upgrade, but it's significantly more powerful with no weight gain. Maybe someone can take a guess at how many more pounds of thrust the 600-700 R's buys you with the 20X10 prop. My FPE turns between 7100 and 7200 R's with the 20X10 Mejzlik.

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

rcign,

You know you make a really good point about the add-on timing advance component (from C&H) that goes between the sensor and the ignition unit. If there's a way to re-key the original hub, the cost to upgrade would be way cheap! However, C&H sells the upgrade hub by itself for $25. So even if someone wanted to just by a new hub and spark advance unit, the cost to upgrade is only $65! Not bad!

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

So FPE doesn't use the Sachs crank..Then he's spending less to make his, so the engine could be cheaper....No reason to re invent the wheel...There is no better crank than a Sachs....
My reference to retarded was meant to mean not fully advanced to 28 degrees..Why not re key the hub and buy OEM ignition from C&H and solve all the problems at the source, probably for the same or less cost......??????????????

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

The FPE 2.4 is a Husky based engine.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

Same thing applies..Never saw a Husky crank without a taper, unless he's using the clutch side and putting in his own keyway...

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

I think I remember Kurt telling me that he makes his own cranks. The only thing he uses from Husqvarna are the top ends.

newshoundaussie

Ran my fpe 2.4 for the first time Saturday. The engine has the stock ignition, with a 20x10 zinger prop it turned a very disappointing 6000 rpm not what I was hoping for from this engine. Like to here from other users.

Signman

At 7200 rpm, 20X10, about 24 # thrust

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

newshoundaussie,

It won't come alive until you upgrade the ignition. You'll gain some R's after it breaks in a bit too.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

An upgrade to a brand new engine ?? It doesn't cost any more to time it right..I have experimented with many small engines without any kind of spark advance or retard..Timed at 28 BTDC there isn't enough kickback to cause a problem, and the idle is just fine..Every Zenoah and small Quadra and US Engines 41 ever made has fixed timing, and there are no complaints about the way they run..IMO, Timing an engine at less than where it runs good looks like an attempt to get a little more $$ from customers by requiring an upgrade...
My .02...
Free advice is worth what you pay for it ....

newshoundaussie

Fpe states 6800 rpm with a 20x10 and stock ignition. The 6000 rpm's this engine is turning is quit a difference. Run was done at 900' asl. and a temp.of about 60F.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

Try it without the muffler...

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

It's not the muffler. In fact, you'll get a slight increase in R's if you plug one of the pipes on the stock FPE muffler. I guess the engine likes a little more back pressure than the stock muffler provides. It is a very free-flowing muffler with large diameter down-pipes.

Did you adjust the mixture yet? Do the low-speed mixture first, then the high speed. The low end mixture will affect the high end.

newshoundaussie

Ajusted low end first then used a tach on high setting, RPM'S peak at between 6000 & 6100 then drop off.

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

Hmmm.... Why don't you give Kurt a call at FPE. I'm sure he'd have an idea of what could be wrong. You can get his number at: http://www.fpengines.com

Good luck.

newshoundaussie

I'll try it one time this week with a different tach if no improvement then I'll call him Thanks.

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

Mine picked up several hundred rpm (300-400) after switching from a standard Zinger to a Zinger Pro 20x10. Now pushes close to 6400-6500, and is still near new. I understand they will turn a Menz or Bolly a little more.

Westbender

My Feedback: (1)

I exchanged a couple of emails with Kurt at FPE and he told me he's going to keep the "stock" 2.4 ignition timing fixed. He said he'd have to raise the price to deliver them with the variable timing feature. He also mentioned that the C&H syncro module (the variable delay unit that goes between the sensor and the ignition) is somehow incompatible with the Ridge Machine ignition, and that Ridge has a similar unit that he's planning on offering as an upgrade. He said it should be a cheaper upgrade than the current one offered ($75 if motor is ordered that way, around $130 if upgraded afterwards). I asked him if he was going to change the timing of the stock hub, but I didn't get a response from him on that. Only that he's working on a "cheaper and easier" upgrade. I can only assume that "easier" means not having to change the hub, but that's only speculation on my part. It is somewhat of a pain to change that thing because it's not a tapered shaft and it's a very tight fit. I also mentioned to him rcign's point about other engines out there that run at a fixed 28 degrees (that's assuming that the US, Zenoah, and others are timed as such), and that most people would be happy to sacrifice a little smoothness at idle and starting ease (if there is even much difference at all) to get the full potential of the motor at full throttle. He didn't really address that one. It's too bad he won't produce that engine with full performance and variable timing at a price that's competitive with the other brands. It is one of the lighter 2.4's out there, if not the lightest, and I can tell you it's a stump puller with the ignition upgrade.

bpryor

My Feedback: (45)

I'd like to clear a couple of things up and also put in my two cents as I've studied the FPE situation pretty closely and have some input to add.

First on a general note, comparing thrust figures published by manufacturers really doesn't have much to offer. Some measure the thrust with an actual gauge of some type, while others (ZDZ) uses a thrust calculator to translate RPM numbers into thrust. This method is usually at least 20% optimistic. Either way, they never publish how they did the measurements so there is no way to compare the published numbers. The best measure we have for online comparisons is to compare Prop/RPM combinations. It helps if you have some additional info, such as altitude and temperature when tested. Even without that I believe you can derive some useful trends with enough samples.

I pretty much agree with all the information Westbender has provided. It mostly jives with the information I have collected. The only thing that seems a bit optimistic is the 6-700RPM performance gain. What I've heard before and thought was a bit optimistic too was 4-500, but if Westbender has actually measured this back-to-back on the same engine, then it must be achievable.

There is no doubt that the FPE is the undisputed champ on weight, and that's a great asset. Power to weight is still an unknown in my mind. As a couple of examples of RPM numbers, a new Taurus 2.6 will turn a Zinger Pro 20X10 at 7400 RPM, and a broken in one has been reported to turn a 20X10 Mejzlik at 8200RPM. A ZDZ40 will turn the same 20X10 Zinger Pro in the 7000-7200RPM range. A Zinger Pro puts more load on the motor than an equivalent Mejzlik(or Bolly), a Menz S puts more load on the engine than the Zinger. All props of equal size are not created equal, and more RPM is not necessarily better.

I too have no idea why the decision to go with 18 degrees was made. I think it is a really big mistake. It severely handicaps this engine's performance. Who cares about a rough idle, who cares if you have to flip it little harder, it's top end power that counts. I also don't understand why you wouldn't put the best type of ignition available on it. My take is they need to find a way to competitively price their engines with an auto-advance ignition.

Ignoring all other competitive issues, if Taurus can sell their engines for less money with the auto-advance ignition, why can't FPE....that was rhetorical, let me answer it. Taurus' are sold factory direct only, and FPE's have a middle man in SIG.