BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
05-02-2012, 06:48 PM
#1
BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
Okay guys, for years both these companies have been industry leaders in their products. BVM makes top notch accessories and Ultra Precision makes the best mechanical valves in the market. The UP2, UP3, UP4, UP6, are as common in jets as it gets.
Now there is a bulletin out by Ultra Precision that says that BVM THIN O-Ring lube (is clear, comes in a vial with a syringe, use it to lube O-rings in door and retract cylinders and fix small leaks, etc...) causes irregular and unreliable door sequencing in their valves.
WHAAAAAT?
How long have we all been using the two together without issues???
I have a giant scale F15 about 85% done and I had bought and planned on using UP2 + UP4 combo on gear (mode 3 landing, some doors stay open, some closed with gear down).
Now I am pausing and hesitating....do I listen to this news bulletin, buy an expensive all-in-one valve, or switch to electronic sequencer with multiple annoying servos and valves? Or do I go forward as planned and not think twice about it?
It's like hearing after all these years that JR servos don't work with Futaba radios even though thousands of people do it every day. Thoughts anybody as to which way to go? I really really really really like UP valves. I have already bought them and they are ready to install. They hold air, work right, are simple. Period.
But now there's a "warning" out there, so if I dont listen and something goes wrong......I will always look back and go "hmmmm....."
Advice needed from people with knowledge and experience. Thanks!
Shaz
Now there is a bulletin out by Ultra Precision that says that BVM THIN O-Ring lube (is clear, comes in a vial with a syringe, use it to lube O-rings in door and retract cylinders and fix small leaks, etc...) causes irregular and unreliable door sequencing in their valves.
WHAAAAAT?
How long have we all been using the two together without issues???
I have a giant scale F15 about 85% done and I had bought and planned on using UP2 + UP4 combo on gear (mode 3 landing, some doors stay open, some closed with gear down).
Now I am pausing and hesitating....do I listen to this news bulletin, buy an expensive all-in-one valve, or switch to electronic sequencer with multiple annoying servos and valves? Or do I go forward as planned and not think twice about it?
It's like hearing after all these years that JR servos don't work with Futaba radios even though thousands of people do it every day. Thoughts anybody as to which way to go? I really really really really like UP valves. I have already bought them and they are ready to install. They hold air, work right, are simple. Period.
But now there's a "warning" out there, so if I dont listen and something goes wrong......I will always look back and go "hmmmm....."
Advice needed from people with knowledge and experience. Thanks!
Shaz
05-02-2012, 07:18 PM
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RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
Hi Shaz,<div>Your question ties in with the comment that I got from Mike Lin at Global Jet Club; says that the BVM thin O-ring lube is bad for the retract seals on my GJC Hunter......***? He sez the O-ring material coming out of China doesn't like the BVM lube, makes the things swell up?</div><div>-Mike</div>
05-02-2012, 07:29 PM
#4
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
ORIGINAL: speed is life
Hi Shaz,<div>Your question ties in with the comment that I got from Mike Lin at Global Jet Club; says that the BVM thin O-ring lube is bad for the retract seals on my GJC Hunter......***? He sez the O-ring material coming out of China doesn't like the BVM lube, makes the things swell up?</div><div>-Mike</div>
Hi Shaz,<div>Your question ties in with the comment that I got from Mike Lin at Global Jet Club; says that the BVM thin O-ring lube is bad for the retract seals on my GJC Hunter......***? He sez the O-ring material coming out of China doesn't like the BVM lube, makes the things swell up?</div><div>-Mike</div>
Guys please refrain from discussing electric door and retract options, I am trying to address this Oil/O-Ring issue, not to get advice to "switch to electric retracts and doors". Though that may be in the future, I am currently trying to work with what I have.
Thanks,
Shaz
05-02-2012, 07:48 PM
#5
My Feedback: (2)
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
Shaz
Last week I received a bottle of the Thin lube from BVM and immediately injected what I thought was a couple of leaking cylinders. I will post on this thread if it causes a problem. I heard about the warning the day after I injected the cylinders with lube.
Last week I received a bottle of the Thin lube from BVM and immediately injected what I thought was a couple of leaking cylinders. I will post on this thread if it causes a problem. I heard about the warning the day after I injected the cylinders with lube.
05-02-2012, 07:53 PM
#6
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
The BVM lube works great for me. That was the only solution formy FeiBao retracts, andI use UP3 valves too.Ihave since switched to Robart retracts, and use the lubein all of my systems. I have been using it since the introduction of the product with no problems.
05-02-2012, 07:58 PM
#7
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
ORIGINAL: jeteye
The BVM lube works great for me. That was the only solution for my FeiBao retracts, and I use UP3 valves too. I have since switched to Robart retracts, and use the lube in all of my systems.
The BVM lube works great for me. That was the only solution for my FeiBao retracts, and I use UP3 valves too. I have since switched to Robart retracts, and use the lube in all of my systems.
Shaz
05-02-2012, 08:31 PM
#8
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
rather than damage something i already had installed:
get a glass sample container with screw down lid.
place a new oring in it.
add enough lube to cover the ring completely.
let it set for a week.
fish out the ring and compare it to another new un lubed ring.
stretch, compression, diameter of the ring material
generally, the material will soften and swell when incompatible.
rarely it will harden and shrink.
get a glass sample container with screw down lid.
place a new oring in it.
add enough lube to cover the ring completely.
let it set for a week.
fish out the ring and compare it to another new un lubed ring.
stretch, compression, diameter of the ring material
generally, the material will soften and swell when incompatible.
rarely it will harden and shrink.
05-02-2012, 08:45 PM
#9
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
ORIGINAL: mongo
rather than damage something i already had installed:
get a glass sample container with screw down lid.
place a new oring in it.
add enough lube to cover the ring completely.
let it set for a week.
fish out the ring and compare it to another new un lubed ring.
stretch, compression, diameter of the ring material
generally, the material will soften and swell when incompatible.
rarely it will harden and shrink.
rather than damage something i already had installed:
get a glass sample container with screw down lid.
place a new oring in it.
add enough lube to cover the ring completely.
let it set for a week.
fish out the ring and compare it to another new un lubed ring.
stretch, compression, diameter of the ring material
generally, the material will soften and swell when incompatible.
rarely it will harden and shrink.
Thanks for staying on point everyone.
Shaz
05-03-2012, 01:34 AM
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RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
ORIGINAL: sskianpour
.....
Mongo I appreciate that experiment, but this is NOT an O-Ring to O-Lube compatibility question. Please re-read the title of the thread. This is a UP valve to O-Lube compatibility issue. The O-ring issue came up later in the thread and is NOT the main issue. Question is: UP valve + BVM O-Lube = trouble? Enough to never do it? Then why have we done it for Years? And should I do it in THIS plane.
Thanks for staying on point everyone.
Shaz
.....
Mongo I appreciate that experiment, but this is NOT an O-Ring to O-Lube compatibility question. Please re-read the title of the thread. This is a UP valve to O-Lube compatibility issue. The O-ring issue came up later in the thread and is NOT the main issue. Question is: UP valve + BVM O-Lube = trouble? Enough to never do it? Then why have we done it for Years? And should I do it in THIS plane.
Thanks for staying on point everyone.
Shaz
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05-03-2012, 04:05 AM
#11
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
the up valve seals ARE o rings, or d rings,or cup seals, or whatever up wants to call them. if up has changed their supplier of seals, then, that new material needs to be tested with whatever lube you, or they, think will work.
05-03-2012, 04:56 AM
#12
My Feedback: (48)
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
My first question when I read the UP bulletin was why? The o-rings used in the cylinders and valves we use are made out of niltile rubber, also known as NBR or Buna-N. There are different formulations and variations of the material from various suppliers. The reason BVMLube helps fix leaks is because it causes the o-rings to soften and swell slightly. Perhaps someone from UP could explain why it's a problem for them, or what they are doing differently.
05-03-2012, 05:39 AM
#13
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RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
Related to this discussion; I use UP Valves with Robarts Retracts but I do not use the BVM Thin Lube; I use Silicone RC Car Shock Absorber Fluid, seems to work fine, anyone know of any problems using this stuff?
05-03-2012, 05:39 AM
#14
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
This is nothing new..UP told me several years ago to not use BVMmu purple juice in the UP valves. I finally gave up and went with electronic valves when they started showing up. Now going electric. Electrons in a new Ultra Flash....sweet.
! Have a new BV T33 that I will convert to electric when I finish it.
! Have a new BV T33 that I will convert to electric when I finish it.
05-03-2012, 06:05 AM
#15
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
I ran into this some last year. Here's the parts of this that I do know....
UP valves and cylinders are greased for lifetime with a Dow Corning lubricant
[link]http://www.up-1.com/dow.html[/link]
I didn't know that at the time, but should have thought more about it. So, trying to be proactive, put the BVM lube in liberally on new gear, and slowly started to have some issues, and called UP directly, and got the story last year about they don't recommend the o-ring lube. It can ever so slightly, increase the o-ring's size, thus helping it to seal if it's got trouble.
But, his remarks were that given the duty cycles that most of our gear see's it should not ever be nesessary. In industry, o-ring / cylinder setups, they should be able to have 10's of thousands of cycles to them.
I think Tom, from JMP also uses this same, lifetime grease on his gear as well.
Any other brand, I don't have any idea what lubricant they could be made with or not. Perhaps other brands the O-ring lube helps.
Totally asside from the question of swelling the o-ring, I kind of came away from it, visualizing it like if you've got a heavy grease on something and you put a thin oil or a WD-40 weight on it, it could actually, 'wash away' the heavier grease.
Lance
UP valves and cylinders are greased for lifetime with a Dow Corning lubricant
[link]http://www.up-1.com/dow.html[/link]
I didn't know that at the time, but should have thought more about it. So, trying to be proactive, put the BVM lube in liberally on new gear, and slowly started to have some issues, and called UP directly, and got the story last year about they don't recommend the o-ring lube. It can ever so slightly, increase the o-ring's size, thus helping it to seal if it's got trouble.
But, his remarks were that given the duty cycles that most of our gear see's it should not ever be nesessary. In industry, o-ring / cylinder setups, they should be able to have 10's of thousands of cycles to them.
I think Tom, from JMP also uses this same, lifetime grease on his gear as well.
Any other brand, I don't have any idea what lubricant they could be made with or not. Perhaps other brands the O-ring lube helps.
Totally asside from the question of swelling the o-ring, I kind of came away from it, visualizing it like if you've got a heavy grease on something and you put a thin oil or a WD-40 weight on it, it could actually, 'wash away' the heavier grease.
Lance
05-03-2012, 10:21 AM
#17
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RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
I dont know why people are so shocked, this is NOT new news. I am not sure if it is posted in the instructions for the UP valves but I have always known that UP recommends only using DOW Corning grease on its valves. I am trying to remember for the life of me where I read it though. It is posted on the UP site though:
Lubrication
This valve has been lubricated for life. It should not need re-lubricating.
The “o†rings in the valve have been lubricated with silicone grease(Dow Corning #55). If it becomes necessary to re-lubricate, do so only with Dow Corning #55 (if you have problems finding this product, it is a stock item with Ultra Precision).
To gain access to the door control mechanism, remove the two screws holding the round cover in place at the end opposite to the quick link connection end. Using a thin piece of music wire, with its end made very smooth so as not to scratch the valve bores, insert it through the hole at the opposite end to the round cover and very carefully push out the cover, followed by the actuating cylinder, spool and spring. Clean with a lint free cloth then lubricate with Dow Corning #55 and re-assemble. Use the music wire to guide the spring into its seat. When inserting the spool it may be necessary to “jiggle†it to get the spring back into its seat at the end of the spool. To remove the strut spool, remove one of the snap rings and pull out the spool.
Even if you use BVM O-ring lube on just your cylinders it will probably make its way back to the valve at sometime so I have never used it in my planes that have a UP valve. You could try removing the cylinder, lubing it a little, actuating the cylinder and then getting out as much of the lube before putting it back in the plane.
Lubrication
This valve has been lubricated for life. It should not need re-lubricating.
The “o†rings in the valve have been lubricated with silicone grease(Dow Corning #55). If it becomes necessary to re-lubricate, do so only with Dow Corning #55 (if you have problems finding this product, it is a stock item with Ultra Precision).
To gain access to the door control mechanism, remove the two screws holding the round cover in place at the end opposite to the quick link connection end. Using a thin piece of music wire, with its end made very smooth so as not to scratch the valve bores, insert it through the hole at the opposite end to the round cover and very carefully push out the cover, followed by the actuating cylinder, spool and spring. Clean with a lint free cloth then lubricate with Dow Corning #55 and re-assemble. Use the music wire to guide the spring into its seat. When inserting the spool it may be necessary to “jiggle†it to get the spring back into its seat at the end of the spool. To remove the strut spool, remove one of the snap rings and pull out the spool.
Even if you use BVM O-ring lube on just your cylinders it will probably make its way back to the valve at sometime so I have never used it in my planes that have a UP valve. You could try removing the cylinder, lubing it a little, actuating the cylinder and then getting out as much of the lube before putting it back in the plane.
05-03-2012, 01:35 PM
#19
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
I dont know why people are so shocked, this is NOT new news.
Here is a scan of the back of the instructions for a valve I purchased in 1994 or 1995. That valve was in use until a few months ago and has never been lubed.
05-03-2012, 01:40 PM
#20
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
Guys again, I am NOT asking whether I can lube the UP valve or not. The problem is that there is ALREADY tons of BVM O-Ring Lube in my retract and door cylinders and airlines (my bad, but there was no other way I knew of to lubricate the cylinders and cure their leaks, and I did NOT know at the time I did it that there would be a compatibility issue). My question now is should I carry on with the UP2+UP4 combo or have I doomed myself to switching to another system?
In other words, how big a concern is it? And have people been using this combo without hassles regardless? I think I may have screwed myself and now have to choose between an EV5U or my Details4Scale Electronic sequencer and a whole bunch of servos and BVM Hi-Flow valves.
Shaz
In other words, how big a concern is it? And have people been using this combo without hassles regardless? I think I may have screwed myself and now have to choose between an EV5U or my Details4Scale Electronic sequencer and a whole bunch of servos and BVM Hi-Flow valves.
Shaz
05-03-2012, 02:21 PM
#21
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RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
Shaz, using BVM O-Lube causes the UP valves to stick, so it is up to you. If you continue to use the valves in your system with BVM O-ring lube then chances are you will burn out a servo when your valve locks up. Options, well you could use another valve obviously. Also you could re-plumb your air system to get the O-ring Lube out. Other than that I don't know what else there is, I don't think it is that complicated, but if it were me and I had O-ring lube in my system, then I would not use a UP valve cause eventually it will stick.
05-03-2012, 03:21 PM
#22
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
ORIGINAL: ianober
Shaz, using BVM O-Lube causes the UP valves to stick, so it is up to you. If you continue to use the valves in your system with BVM O-ring lube then chances are you will burn out a servo when your valve locks up. Options, well you could use another valve obviously. Also you could re-plumb your air system to get the O-ring Lube out. Other than that I don't know what else there is, I don't think it is that complicated, but if it were me and I had O-ring lube in my system, then I would not use a UP valve cause eventually it will stick.
Shaz, using BVM O-Lube causes the UP valves to stick, so it is up to you. If you continue to use the valves in your system with BVM O-ring lube then chances are you will burn out a servo when your valve locks up. Options, well you could use another valve obviously. Also you could re-plumb your air system to get the O-ring Lube out. Other than that I don't know what else there is, I don't think it is that complicated, but if it were me and I had O-ring lube in my system, then I would not use a UP valve cause eventually it will stick.
Other option is my Details4Scale Electronic sequencer or my Jet Central electronic sequencer...with about 3 BVM Hi-Flow valves and 3 mini servos to operate Landing Mode 3....ugggh
decisions, decisions...
Shaz
05-03-2012, 05:12 PM
#23
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
IIRC, the UP valves have a floating shuttle (spool) valve inside of them that is sensitive to the drag of the o rings.
UP makes a BIG deal out of this even when you talk to them. ONLY use the DOW lube. I think Todd sells that stuff BTW.
I have spoken to the UP guy (of course now I can't remember his name) over the years, he is very approachable, so Shaz it is 100% worth the time to call him and ask him. he is a straight shooter and will give you good advice.
UP makes a BIG deal out of this even when you talk to them. ONLY use the DOW lube. I think Todd sells that stuff BTW.
I have spoken to the UP guy (of course now I can't remember his name) over the years, he is very approachable, so Shaz it is 100% worth the time to call him and ask him. he is a straight shooter and will give you good advice.
05-03-2012, 05:50 PM
#24
RE: BVM Thin O-Ring Lube and UP valves NOT compatible?
ORIGINAL: mr_matt
IIRC, the UP valves have a floating shuttle (spool) valve inside of them that is sensitive to the drag of the o rings.
UP makes a BIG deal out of this even when you talk to them. ONLY use the DOW lube. I think Todd sells that stuff BTW.
I have spoken to the UP guy (of course now I can't remember his name) over the years, he is very approachable, so Shaz it is 100% worth the time to call him and ask him. he is a straight shooter and will give you good advice.
IIRC, the UP valves have a floating shuttle (spool) valve inside of them that is sensitive to the drag of the o rings.
UP makes a BIG deal out of this even when you talk to them. ONLY use the DOW lube. I think Todd sells that stuff BTW.
I have spoken to the UP guy (of course now I can't remember his name) over the years, he is very approachable, so Shaz it is 100% worth the time to call him and ask him. he is a straight shooter and will give you good advice.
Shaz,
All I can suggest is to either replace the air lines or flush them with air. If the BVM product gets into the valve it will effect the door sequencing. The ideal solution would of course to replace the cylinders and tube with a quality product.
Regards
Philip
Shaz