mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

So I have been talking to my boys about the JetCats in the for sale section thread. This caused them to educate me and another flyer about the evolutions of these turbines

As I have only been flying for 3 years now I do not have any hands on grasp of the past and how far it has come. I have read a lot on this site about evolution of plans, kits, composites, ARFs, to full ready to fly jets built to order

Anytime I talk to my non-turbine flying buddy's all they can foucuse on is the cost! While the sound and power get there harts going, some belive spending 2k on a turbine power plant only is just to much

From what I understand the turbine market has seen a very big change in prices over the last 10 years or so.
I fly 2 AMT180 turbines in a CAI Razor and falcon 120 I was able to get these motor under $500 each

I check the for sale section on this site 2-3 times a day looking for a new 22 pound or larger turbine I can afford as I'm saveings up for it (it will take me 2 months or so to save up $2k

But as I check the forsale section I see most name brand turbines going for 1/2price of new, I'm sure this has something to do with KingTeck and I there's offing a good product/service at a lower price

But I read a thread about (xstream jets -spelling). That everyone dumped on becouse they took an older turbine and updated it some. The thread don't show it's Intiall cost but I checked today and ther 24pounders are $1,800

so my question is, I see company's like JetCat going with smaller and lighter and more compact (even the fuel pump is in the turbine houseing ) wich warent there cost, but what about the tooling and parts for there older modles ? couldn't they be used to make a not so advanced but more entry level turbines?

Whith how for the advancements have come In The last 10 years, what do you think the market will look like In the next 10years?

I for one think there will be less brands out there as I'm trying to make a list now of all the 22 pound turbine options out there to compair specks

Mike

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

I don't know how much cheaper a "new" turbine will get. The engine it self is a simple beast... but you are paying for a warranty.

Think of it this way.... if Kingtech came out, and sold you a turbine for a small mark-up over real production costs.... they would shortly go out of biz, if they had to change the bearings on 15% of the engines, under warranty. SO... they have to work an "Insurance" dollar amount, into the costs.


Also... in every industry... the end user demands evolution in the product. OK... you have some old AMT's. But, they were truly king of the hill back in the day. Unfortunately, you have been spoiled because of that. Your AMT's start, and run well. They can gulp a huge air bubble, and keep running... and they have spool times that rival the best engines today. (about 3 seconds from idle to full noise) Put your hands on something like a P-70, with a 7 second spool time, and you will understand why someone like JetCat had to evolve. The only real down side to an AMT is the weight. The fact that Jectcat had to do R&D will drive the price on the new engines.


I've seen the xtreem (sp?) engines... and despite what the rep will tell you... they are a RAM 750 engine, with a Xicoy ECU. That engine isn't bad, but it's big and heavy. So, that makes it "old Tech" with a newer price tag. (That's why the guys were bashing it) Also, we couldn't get an answer out of him on where his parts are made. I know of one over-seas company who makes the "750" wheels, and I'm not sure of the quality. The suspicion is, he's using those parts.


If Money wasn't an issue... I would buy a Jet Central Rabbit. They are SMALL and LIGHT for the thrust. AND, they are very fast spooling. Not to mention that Eric Clap gives great, personal, customer service. But, since $$$ normally is a factor... the K-100 is a good engine. If you contact Berry direct... he may give you a "X-mas" price on it.


I guess on the short list of used engines.........

1) K-100

2) JC Rabbit

3) JC Falcon (assuming you can get the warranty on it)

4) A newer P-80

5) Ram 750+ (assuming it's been updated, and has a history)

6) AMT 280 (I can turn it up for you)

7) Wren 100


The KingTech, Jetcentral, and Wren's have GREAT customer service, and good turnaround times. Jetcat USA is under new ownership, and they are supposed to be getting better. BUT, in years past, they have been slow. The AMT is a great engine, as you know... but it's going to be heavy, and the USA service is gone. The RAM 750+ (or 1000) is a roll of the dice, but it will be cheap. Carlos at RTI can service it, and he knows the tricks to make them run. AND, the newest ECU update from Bob Price make the RAM engines run great. FYI... the 20~22 Lb 750 and the 28~30 Lb Ram 1000 are physically the same engine. The higher thrust is just from higher RPM's, and better tolerances.

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

While very true, one can't help to think that the price of maufancuring has really when down over the years. I used to work with a company that was in the early advancement of the Hemi / LX / charger / challenger market. 6 years ago my head porter paid 200,000 for a 5 axis CNC machine and Trainning. He told me now the new Modle is in the low 100.000 range and works even better. Some things got to get cheaper with time right?

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

Sort of.


Back in the day... we used compressor wheels from a turbo. (cast) The newer engines were stressing them, to the failure point, so they had to make them on a 5 axis CNC. SO... the production cost of the compressor went from $50 to $200. (or more) And, since we are dealing with low production quantities... that keeps the price up.


Yes... they could continue to produce old style engines... but the guys who are willing to drop $10k on a new model... they won't buy them. SO, as the production volumes go down... that will drive the price up on even the old versions.


Also... think about this.... if you owned a turbine company... and you knew that guys will spend $2k on your engine... even though your costs are only $100. What price would you sell them for?

Dieselman1220

My Feedback: (25)

Hey Tony sent you a PM.

PaulD

My Feedback: (39)

I've had the same issue with guys saying oh, I could never afford a turbine. Same guy them walks over and pulls his 2 5s5000 packs of his generator powered charger. Oh, and he's not just got 1 set of packs but three or four so he can cycle them thru the charging process and fly all day - and I get to listen to his generator alllllll day next to me in the pits. Then there's the guy with the 35% plane with a DA120 on pipes and a carbon prop and carbon spinner and aluminum bling ass stuff all over. Wonder if you add up all those prices how much cheaper than a 80-100 size turbine is? Oh yea, and his engine has no auto start, carbureted, pretty low tech compared to even the cheapest turbines on the market today.

Its all what a guy wants to spend his money on to get his kicks. Sometimes I think all the "Pitt noise" about turbines is because that 40% plane isn't getting the same attention as the turbine jet.

I doesn't matter to me at all. I just am in the process of finishing off a 35% Carf extra so I can get back into flying some prop stuff. I love the hobby and all it can offer.

Tony is right about the warranty thing as development and warranty costs really add up and the market demands incredible service levels which some very good turbine companies that are becoming leaders are demonstrating. But that service doesn't come for free. IMO there's already too many turbine mfrs on the market and something's gotta give.


cheers!

PaulD

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

It's funny you say that. There are a few guys who are getting the turbine itch... but the last time I was flying, I had one guy basically say he wants to pull the trigger on a turbine, but it's just too expensive. (with probably $3k worth of models and charging equipment in the back of his SUV) I then told him I know of an AV8R for under $100, and a good running Ram 500 for $500. (still too expensive)

But I'll show them. I set up my ShockJet (with a 22 Lb JC Falcon) with a buddy box. Next spring... I'l get them to convert to the dark side. (lol)

mikes68charger

My Feedback: (34)

Your right about putting your money were you want it, to get the $$ for the old crash CAI Razor I got, I went throw my shop and sold all the exstra bits that I could spare. I even sold several of my planes to get the cash It was like cash for clunkers lol traded 4 cheaper planes for one really nice one.


The only hard part is how little you get for your planes, I thought about selling one of my TopFlightGiant war birds but having around $1800 in a plane but only being able to get $900 for it sucks