hairnutz

Im curious about what types of machines are used for the various aluminum parts for cars.

For example, I assume that a CNC machine is capable of making a shock tower for an Inferno, however, what specs are required of the machine? 2 axis? 5 axis? Or are these parts hand cranked? I know they arent...

Also, what type of a machine is capable of creating an engine? Are they also created with the same CNC machine that makes the shock towers? Again, what type? Brand / models would be very helpful. How many axis, etc. Or, are they forged?

I know we have some machinists around here.

GALAXY

The hand crank thing your talking about would be called a vertical mill and they're mostly 2-3 axis I think...left-right,foward-backward,and up and down.I really don't know much about 5 axis machines,we don't have any but a guy I work with is in a racecar design class at UF and they use a huge 5 axis to prototype the whole full size car out of some kind of foam.I bet that would be really cool to see.We have 2 Atlas CNC's that are 2 axis controlled but the up/down Z part is still hand cranked and you could make just about anything with it.Hinge pins and stuff are probably done on a CNC lathe which we also have but I'm not sure of the brand name.It has a 5 tool capacity so it could do 5 operations without touching it again.All my parts I've ordered for my RS4 3 from Hot Bodies look really good but I think they bead blast them once they're machined for a uniform look,we don't do that.

In the CNC,say to cut the outside shape of that shock tower,you would use a tool called an end mill and you'd have to program all the arcs and lines and then account for half the thickness of the tool or else it would be off.Hope this helps a little ...I'll post some more pics later and I'll take the cam back to work with me so you can see some of the machines.

Lasershop: if you read this post,I'd love to see a pic of your laser machine.

miserynitro

My Feedback: (8)

engine blocks are mostly CASTED, if you look at the block you can see the 2 halfs... but the Heat Sinks are usually Milled out of CNC cut.....

Most CNC machines used to make RC parts have programs such as MASTERCAM which, you can program in the hole part in X,Y,Z, axis and curves and whatever you wish... and the maching will excecute the program, and stop when it is done... no user intervention.

jbjustin33415

CNC machines are fun to work with, but can be very difficult at times. When I was in high school, we used to make stuff with the CNC machine in enginering class. First we had to learn how to code everything, then we were able to use MasterCam to make things. Usually a peice that is going to be made with the CNC machine is done in AutoCAD, then its exported to MasterCam or some other CNC program and is then cut in the machine.
If you really want to see one in person, look around town for a machine shop, or look in the yellow pages. Then call them up and ask if you can watch them make a peice in the CNC machine.

Justin

hairnutz

Yes, all of this info helps greatly, thanks!!

Could these same machines also be used to make a rim for a 4 wheeler or car? Or do they use an entirely different type of machine. One of the CNC manufactures that Ive been looking at makes a dedicated machine for auto rims, though it looks just like any other CNC machine - Im not sure what the difference is.

Also, do you have any idea about the stock they feed through it? As far as aluminum goes, I havent been able to find 3 - 4 MM thick sheets of aluminum stock that would be used to create chassis and other items of that thickness. Is there yet another machine that 'flattens' the thicker metal or is it more or less just use a thicker piece of aluminum and mill it down to 3 - 4 MM? Im guessing that you would pretty much have to be a metal working shop to flatten the metal since it would have to be red hot to run through a flattening machine - sorry, dont know the technical term.

GALAXY

I doubt a shop will just let you come and watch,theres alot of insurance regulations that unless you work there theres no reason for you to be near a machine.Even with safety glasses and an apron and all,and end mill could shatter,vice might let go,anything can happen.

The wheel making CNC's are huge and usually enclosed,thats about the only difference that I know of....but there might be another head for the sides,I'd like to find out.

Metal can be bought in almost any shape,theres bar stock (square),and rod (round),and sheet which is mostly what we use.

Instead of trying to buy aluminum in metric sizes try looking for it in thousandths of an inch,3mm would be about .090

miserynitro

My Feedback: (8)

Right on Galaxy... stock comes usually in Thousands of a inch... ie 90 thouw, 100 thouw (However you spell T-H-O-U-W)... or 1/4 " sheets.... 1/4" is usually what arms and such are made from.

hairnutz

I guess another question would be, does the machine do all of the work at a time?

What I mean is, for example, if you are making an a-arm... Will the machine cut out the basic design of the arm, then twist the arm around and drill the holes for the hinge pins? Or are you required to cut out the shape first, then reposition the arm and reprogram the cnc to drill out the holes?

I was also looking into a 3d laser scanner but Im not sure that would make reproducing items like an A Arm easier. It would help if you are making 2D items I guess but Im not sure.

I think this machine could make all of the parts for an RC car such as A-Arms, chassis, shock towers, etc. Do you have any input on it?

I would like to get started in CNC but would hate to throw $45,000 - $75,000 into machines that I cant use. I could purchase this machine to learn on at first. What do you guys think about this one?

http://www.microkinetics.com/cncdmill.htm

Im not getting into CNC just for RC car parts, but since Im into this hobby, I would like to atleast start by making these less complex items.

Im planning on taking a class for CNC in Columbus to learn CNC Machining to get me started but I have a zillion questions before I even attend a class.

Thanks again for the input.

RaZ_Tx

Hey all, to cross mm to in. divide by 25.4 (ex. 3mm/25.4 = .1181102") just under 1/8"(.125)
Or 1mm is = .03937"
A 2-axis router will make alot of RC parts.
It would take a 4-axis CNC machine to make parts such as A-arms w/o going to a second operation.

GALAXY

I was wondering if you had alot of money burning a hole in your pocket or what ,but I understand now,lol.

The machines we have can't do it all at once,you're right it would have to cut the outside shape firstand then you would have to reposition it in a vise and re-zero the machine and tell it what to do to drill the holes for the hinge pin and you would also have to change tools in the machine.On a flat peice you have to set the "datum" which is its start point..usually the upper left hand corner the way I do it.This way the machine can go from there and all the coordinates you give it will be measured from that point.

The 3-D laser scanner would be cool and from what I know about those it would be true 3-D.Have you seen the 3-D printers?All I know of those is what my dad told me but I guess they make it out of wax or something and it comes out as a real part you can touch.From what I've seen of machining..theres no need for the scanner unless you wanna copy someone elses part...hello lawsuit.

Classes are probably a good idea but the shop I work at had no problem with training people,you might wanna look into just getting a job at a shop.However,if you have $75,000 for machines.....you probably have a much better job than that.If not though,you could learn the machines and have access to all kinds of stock and time to play with them without spending any money.

I'm about to head home and I got a few pics of the machines I'll post when I get there.

GALAXY

Heres a few pics.

GALAXY

Oops,sorry about that double..its an end mill and that part used to be as tall as the leftover parts that weren't milled away.The screen is the program for that part.

Lasershop

Operating the machine is the easy part..... I mean if you have
experience. The design and CAD takes allot of time, I would
say a year minimum before you know what you are doing.
It isn't like a few driving lessons. The machine will attempt to
do exactly what you have programed. I think school is your best
bet. Theres nothing wrong with a good used bridgeport CNC
either. Once in a while you come across a deal. I have a V2XT.
RonO

Lasershop

Its a neat machine for the price. But I wonder how many hours it took to
make those few aluminum parts with a 2500 max spindle speed. Not just
any CNC will cut metal. I would say that one is more suited for plastic.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Hey guys, hope you don't mind me askin' a question or two? I worked at a machine shop for awhile in the mid 80's, and I basically ran parts. I also restored the bosses Piper PA-18-150 Super Cub, but that's annother story...Anyway, I'm wondering, what's the programming "lingo" like today? Back then I recall it was a pain in the can to have to learn the computer code, etc...We had 2, Boss 10's an old Boss 5 (w/ the paper tape) Bridgeport mills, a Victor cnc lathe, a Hardinge bros. and some new Japanese machines were comming in about then. Is it easier to program them nowdays? Or do you still have to know all the code numbers, and lines, or is there a program now that will "talk" you thru it? Thanks.

Lasershop

Its all software man. But I have allot of respect for "old school".

Lasershop

GALAXY, did you get my email yesterday?

GALAXY

I haven't checked it but I'll do that now,my bad.

hairnutz

Thanks for all the info so far.

I've used a little CAD in the past and have downloaded several trial versions of the CNC software from a few different manufactures. After sitting down with the software for a few hours, I still have no clue how it works. Im an IS guy so I pick up on computers / software / programming pretty easy. I understand how it would work but Ive tried to draft a few parts as a test and was unsuccessful. Now, give me AutoCad and Ill have a part in no time.. On the screen anyway. Maybe its the software I was using - seemed to be pretty generic I guess, expecially since they were free downloads / trial versions.

I was able to find a few of those V2XT machines for sale at a reasonable price. Ill keep looking into machines and will probably go through training before buying one. A guy down the street from me runs a smaller machine shop but he doesnt have any CNC stuff, just the hand crank deals. I could still learn a lot from him though.

Now, lets just say that I purchased one of these machines. Would there be any other machines I would need to make RC parts? For example, I want to be able to put a finish / polish on the parts and/or anodize them. Im familiar with the homebrew method of anodizing but surely they make a machine for that. Also, someone mentioned that a parts manufacturer likely sand blasts their parts to finish them?

Im fairly confident that Ill be able to learn the CNC programming within a year or so. If that does pan out, I also feel fairly confident that I could make and sell enough parts to atleast cover the monthly payments on a $10,000 - $20,000 machine with a 7 - 10 year business loan. What do you guys think?

I mean, if you look on a search engine, or even Ebay for CNC for Aluminum parts, there are literally thousands of parts that could easily be made from 10-Speed brake calipers to disc brake rotors to RC Parts and Rims to 4-Wheeler rims etc.

Not saying this is a get rich deal, but at least it should pay for itself in a few years with little out of pocket expense. Im not really looking for a new career or anything, just think this would be a very fun venture that could make money. And, the experience and knowledge is something I could always fall back on if needed.

GALAXY

hey,that shop you see started in a garage about 5 years ago while he worked for another company....it got to be pretty big as you can see though.

I think my hot bodies parts were bead blasted,which is actually very small beads that pretty much look like sand..they just leave a smoother finish that doesn't collect oil and fingerprints.As far as the Anodizing,we looked into that and theres alot of red tape on hazardous materials in case of a spill.

All of our drawings are done in Autocad,then somebody has to stand in front of a CNC and "teach" it the coordinates.There is probably a faster way but I don't know it.

As far as other tools,you're probably gonna need a saw of some kind to cut the stock you'll end up ordering.That was actually the first thing my boss bought 5 years ago...a cold saw.There's different blades for stainless,mild steel,and aluminum and it uses a water soluble cutting oil that flows on the blade and drains back to the pump.This gives a cleaner cut and keeps the stock and blade cool.

I didn't know any of this 2 years ago but you sound like you're on the right track takin classes and since you already know Autocad you're ahead of alot of people.Good luck and if you have anymore questions I'll try to help ya out[8D]

RaZ_Tx

I think there is some form of software that will import your autocad drawings and convert it to cnc programing I am not sure on this. My buddy is a machinist / cnc programmer and i get him to make me what ever i need only draw back he is slower then x-mas[>:] He lost the last things i had him make me (a couple of pans for the bottom of my rc car bags so now i have to wait even longer for those)

miserynitro

My Feedback: (8)

well here is a couple of programs you might want to look into:

1)Solid Edge
2)Pro Engineer

Both can actually save files into a format that new machines can actually read. With solid edge you can do 3D modeling, which means if you are making a whole truck out of aluminum, and draft up ever part... you can peice them all together in this progam... to see if they will all fit as planned, and if you want to design anything new... you can do it from the complete model.

For "Sand Blasting" you can get a machine, called a tumbler, just like sand blasting... but you place your parts in, and either glass beads, or plastic, silicon or whatever you want, and it will giver your aluminum parts a nice mirror finish.

Lasershop

Dude......... slow way down. A bit of advise. If you want a really good
deal, find any one of the small machine shops that go out of business
every day. I run a small laser shop and this economy has been a
struggle for about three years now. I hear about other shops going
down the tubes all the time. These would be guys with 20 and thirty
years of experience. My V2XT is one of my favorite toys. It was about
$33,000 11 years ago. We don't use it to make a living, its just an in
house tool. It takes about an hour to make a full set of A-Arms out of
1/4" aluminum on this CNC. My spindle speed is 4000 max. Then there
is the second ops (operations), about another hour. It is no way a
production machine. I am super fast in AutoCAD. I use it several times
a day, everyday. I wrote our post processing software for our lasers.
That took me a year. I modified an SLA program that my ex boss sold
for thirty grand. My point is, it took me about nine months to grasp the
whole CNC mill programming before I stopped ruining parts. I am not
trying to discourage you, I think your a little ahead of yourself. Any
production CNC is going to require some big power too. Big amps.
Do you have that kind of facility? That machine you where looking at
for seven grand, you will produce about one set of A-Arms a day.
If you have that kind of money to play, then you go. But if this is a
direction in your life, then you are in the wrong forum. Go to the ones
with all the Mom and Pop machine shops crying the blues and having
fire sales, begging for work. Do more research

69bird

Ok RAZ, you know I'm not on a machine anymore. You have to wait your turn.

As for the software, Solid Edge is real easy to learn if you have any type of CADD training.
Autocadd is different as far as drawing stuff goes,solid edge is a good 3-D solid modeling software
I use it everyday.
For the format that machines can read,machines read CODE thats it,CAM software produce the code,
or you hand type it line by line. Some machines have a conversational type software that you can use
to program "at" the machine.
Some may even import .dxf or iges files(from AutoCadd,or Solid Edge) to use
instead of having to input the information manually.
Hurco has their own type of conversational programming.
I think Mayzak has one also,one of these type machines may be a good starting point as far as $$,
no need for additional software.

miserynitro

My Feedback: (8)

like i said before... solid edge... can make files like the iges, in which if you have the right version of MASTER CAM, it will open it, and work properly.