ROTC project
01-13-2004, 01:06 AM
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ROTC project
Hello all.
My friend is in ROTC (we're both 15) and we came up with the idea to build a jet fighter as his senior project. The motive was his goal to become a piolot and mine to become an architecht/engineer. The idea was, however, mostly a fantasy until I started looking into the subject.
The first place I turned was learning about jet engines and aerodynamics. I went to that cool NASA site where they have everything anyone needs to know about planes and turbine engines. I then began searching for any information at all.
Shortly after I drew up a design (based off of complete guesswork) and continued my search. Sofar I've come up with 6 or 7 designes, each one based off of more information i've learned.
Not until recently did I discover there is a whole community of you people who do this all the time and there are more types of affordable turbojet engines than the crusemissile one I was drooling at (with 150 lbs of thrust.... sweet jesus).
So now I've come a long way (having read a few books and sites about aerodynamics and flight) and these are my current specs:
I'm planning on using a fiberglass body with sheetmetal re-enforcement (I will explane why in a bit). It's total length is 6 feet with a wingspan of 4'.
I'm one for the ponies so i'm going to strap two p160's (from JetCat USA) on it with a 3' by 8" (diameter) fuel capacity (by my calculations that's 7.833583 gallons allowing for 31.334332 min of flight at full throttle (using a calculator and given fuel consumption)). This allows for 68 lbs. of thrust at full throttle (34lbs per engine). I noticed that most of the planes discussed are like 10 lbs of thrust... thus I am re-enforcing it (with sheetmetal ribs and sutch in potential stress points).
Inside of the fuselodge I am planning on having a few cameras (with some kind of radio transmitter) so we can see an on-board view of what is happening, the control's (and their nessisary radio components), fuel pumps and some kind of device to suply the heading, airspeed, altitude and all that other fun stuff.
Here is where I submit my situation to all of you to help give me advice.
The design I have is Canard (has the stabilizors infront of the center of gravity) because it looks cool
and also because the engines are mounted quite far back and I want to ensure that my stabilizors wont be melted off by the exhaust... and it looks cool. I am aware of the stability problems with this design as it causes a risk of the plane flipping over when pulling up[:-] (because the stabilizors lift increses infront of the center of gravity).
To make up for this danger I am making the stabalizors smaller and the wing larger, reaching to the back of the plane (similar to a Tailess aircraft design).
It is my theory that a Canard design with stabilizors that arent so large that they flip the plane over would allow for a much tighter radius when pulling up - but could increse the risk of stall (thus I'm pondering putting slits in the wings to reduce this risk).
Other details include:
-It is swept wing...
-The wings are tilted verticaly...
-The fuselodge is 8 inches diameter.
I am awaire that it is NOT a good idea to start my model flight career with an expesive and FAST plane (due to the risk of crashing) so I have enlisted the aid of my old science teacher (an experienced pilot) my friends brother (a cal-tech student and pilot in training) and am planning on getting Flight Simuator 2004 with the model creation software (crammen on the simulators so we have a "feel" for what it "might" fly like).
Now that I am done ranting these are my questions:
1 - I'm guessing (or hoping... pending how one looks at the situation) that the plane will be arround the aria of 50 lbs fully loaded... If someone see's that I'm probibly totaly off please do tell and give me you're estimate of how heavy it will be.
2 - With 68lbs. of thrust and a 50lb design... is there a risk of going trans or super-sonic?
3 - Any ideas on wing size and shape? I have one but it's based compleatly on looks.
4 - INPUT... i'm new to this.
Oh and he're is a basic pic of the current design (with half the fuel tank capacity)
My friend is in ROTC (we're both 15) and we came up with the idea to build a jet fighter as his senior project. The motive was his goal to become a piolot and mine to become an architecht/engineer. The idea was, however, mostly a fantasy until I started looking into the subject.
The first place I turned was learning about jet engines and aerodynamics. I went to that cool NASA site where they have everything anyone needs to know about planes and turbine engines. I then began searching for any information at all.
Shortly after I drew up a design (based off of complete guesswork) and continued my search. Sofar I've come up with 6 or 7 designes, each one based off of more information i've learned.
Not until recently did I discover there is a whole community of you people who do this all the time and there are more types of affordable turbojet engines than the crusemissile one I was drooling at (with 150 lbs of thrust.... sweet jesus).
So now I've come a long way (having read a few books and sites about aerodynamics and flight) and these are my current specs:
I'm planning on using a fiberglass body with sheetmetal re-enforcement (I will explane why in a bit). It's total length is 6 feet with a wingspan of 4'.
I'm one for the ponies so i'm going to strap two p160's (from JetCat USA) on it with a 3' by 8" (diameter) fuel capacity (by my calculations that's 7.833583 gallons allowing for 31.334332 min of flight at full throttle (using a calculator and given fuel consumption)). This allows for 68 lbs. of thrust at full throttle (34lbs per engine). I noticed that most of the planes discussed are like 10 lbs of thrust... thus I am re-enforcing it (with sheetmetal ribs and sutch in potential stress points).
Inside of the fuselodge I am planning on having a few cameras (with some kind of radio transmitter) so we can see an on-board view of what is happening, the control's (and their nessisary radio components), fuel pumps and some kind of device to suply the heading, airspeed, altitude and all that other fun stuff.
Here is where I submit my situation to all of you to help give me advice.
The design I have is Canard (has the stabilizors infront of the center of gravity) because it looks cool
and also because the engines are mounted quite far back and I want to ensure that my stabilizors wont be melted off by the exhaust... and it looks cool. I am aware of the stability problems with this design as it causes a risk of the plane flipping over when pulling up[:-] (because the stabilizors lift increses infront of the center of gravity).To make up for this danger I am making the stabalizors smaller and the wing larger, reaching to the back of the plane (similar to a Tailess aircraft design).
It is my theory that a Canard design with stabilizors that arent so large that they flip the plane over would allow for a much tighter radius when pulling up - but could increse the risk of stall (thus I'm pondering putting slits in the wings to reduce this risk).
Other details include:
-It is swept wing...
-The wings are tilted verticaly...
-The fuselodge is 8 inches diameter.
I am awaire that it is NOT a good idea to start my model flight career with an expesive and FAST plane (due to the risk of crashing) so I have enlisted the aid of my old science teacher (an experienced pilot) my friends brother (a cal-tech student and pilot in training) and am planning on getting Flight Simuator 2004 with the model creation software (crammen on the simulators so we have a "feel" for what it "might" fly like).
Now that I am done ranting these are my questions:
1 - I'm guessing (or hoping... pending how one looks at the situation) that the plane will be arround the aria of 50 lbs fully loaded... If someone see's that I'm probibly totaly off please do tell and give me you're estimate of how heavy it will be.
2 - With 68lbs. of thrust and a 50lb design... is there a risk of going trans or super-sonic?
3 - Any ideas on wing size and shape? I have one but it's based compleatly on looks.
4 - INPUT... i'm new to this.
Oh and he're is a basic pic of the current design (with half the fuel tank capacity)
01-13-2004, 01:16 AM
#2
RE: ROTC project
HUUMM Great homework or dream. But start with the basic. 15 and you can afford two P-160's (No comment) Start off by checking to see how much your fuel will weigh (about 40lbs per your calculation) cameras?? Two P-160's that is already HEAVIER than 50lbs and you have not built anything yet.
Time to check some websites or pull someone else's leg
Turbulence
Time to check some websites or pull someone else's leg
Turbulence
01-13-2004, 01:29 AM
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RE: ROTC project
haha thanks... I thought that 50 lbs was a dream 
. Yeah, right now this is a learning experience. We arent even dreaming of building this thing for another year or 2.
((Just went to the JetCat website... the P160 is 3.34 LB... with fuel and all that bonus stuff i'm putting it between 70 and 100))
. Yeah, right now this is a learning experience. We arent even dreaming of building this thing for another year or 2.((Just went to the JetCat website... the P160 is 3.34 LB... with fuel and all that bonus stuff i'm putting it between 70 and 100))
01-13-2004, 05:03 AM
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RE: ROTC project
Jeez, when I was 15 I was flying a Gentle Lady with an .049 and control line junk. I hate to think of the damage I could have done with access to a turbine...
01-13-2004, 06:27 AM
#5
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RE: ROTC project
Ralph (Turbulence) is correct. Also, even if you do get something airworthy sooner or later, do not make the mistake of thinking that an experienced full scale pilot can easily fly this. That is not the case. Everyone is different, but most of us flew R/C for several years before being able to handle the performance of a hot sport turbine jet. And what you are dreaming of is hotter than the hottest out there. If you really want to pursue this, get a good flight simulator and practice. When you have it right, join a local club, start with a 0.40 sized glow trainer and work your way up for a few years. It will save you A LOT of $$$ in the long run.
01-13-2004, 01:23 PM
#6
RE: ROTC project
In regards to your question #2
2 - With 68lbs. of thrust and a 50lb design... is there a risk of going trans or super-sonic?
With your calculations of 7.833 gal of onboard kerosene which weighs 6.8421 lbs/gal, your fuel load would measure 53.5941693 lbs which means your air frame would weigh a minus -3.59 lbs, rounded off. So the answer to your question would be no.
RH
2 - With 68lbs. of thrust and a 50lb design... is there a risk of going trans or super-sonic?
With your calculations of 7.833 gal of onboard kerosene which weighs 6.8421 lbs/gal, your fuel load would measure 53.5941693 lbs which means your air frame would weigh a minus -3.59 lbs, rounded off. So the answer to your question would be no.
RH
01-13-2004, 02:58 PM
#7
RE: ROTC project
With two P-160's, if you keep it light it will go supersonic.
You could also add a glow plug to the tail pipe and pump some butane and you will get a cool looking afterburner.
Make sure you wear binoculars just in case youn loos it out of sight. Also, don't break the sound barrier over continetnal US, or you amy get in trouble with the FAA, and the NSA for that matter.
I can give you a good idea for an ROTC project. Build a Great Planes Patriot which is a propeller airplane but looks like a jet, and it can hit 100mph with a good engine. There is a good chance you could actuallt fly this one, although it is still pretty fast. Always seek help of an RC pilot, never a real pilot. It is very different to be seating inside an airplane than outside, the perspective is different. Building a patriot or similar will teach you the basics about airframe and systems installation, and you will not need to ask the Department of Defense for a grant. You can even install a landing gear system that retratcs just like real airplanes.
Good luck, and forget about turbines for your project, unless you only want to design and not build.
Falcon W
You could also add a glow plug to the tail pipe and pump some butane and you will get a cool looking afterburner.Make sure you wear binoculars just in case youn loos it out of sight. Also, don't break the sound barrier over continetnal US, or you amy get in trouble with the FAA, and the NSA for that matter.
I can give you a good idea for an ROTC project. Build a Great Planes Patriot which is a propeller airplane but looks like a jet, and it can hit 100mph with a good engine. There is a good chance you could actuallt fly this one, although it is still pretty fast. Always seek help of an RC pilot, never a real pilot. It is very different to be seating inside an airplane than outside, the perspective is different. Building a patriot or similar will teach you the basics about airframe and systems installation, and you will not need to ask the Department of Defense for a grant. You can even install a landing gear system that retratcs just like real airplanes.
Good luck, and forget about turbines for your project, unless you only want to design and not build.
Falcon W
01-13-2004, 03:09 PM
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RE: ROTC project
Ahh........ To be 15 again
Sorry boys, this project is way out of your league. Suggest if you really want to do a project, design an airplane..... build it and power it with an electric motor. Just designing a plane that actually flies will be enough of a challenge for you
Todd
Sorry boys, this project is way out of your league
. Suggest if you really want to do a project, design an airplane..... build it and power it with an electric motor. Just designing a plane that actually flies will be enough of a challenge for you Todd
01-13-2004, 04:13 PM
#9
RE: ROTC project
Or simply buy a eurosport and tell everyone you designed it. Anyone that's not in the world of RC would probably believe it, and since your 15, you could probably get away with it.......................
You're on the right track, don't let anyone here deter you from pursuing your dreams. If you're serious about this, the people here will help you beyond your beliefs, and if someone calls your bluff, tell them you are funded by a grant from Nasa that even Wocketman doesn't have clearance to know about (Wocketman is a real Nasa Rocket Scientist that covertly pretends to be a cool RC jet jock).
I'm not a designer so I can't help you, but keep your head up, and listen to everyone and make your own mind up as to what is helpful and what is not.
Sean
Todd, first time in my life that I ever had that feeling (to be 15 again.................)
Of course, 18 was a pretty good year for me!
You're on the right track, don't let anyone here deter you from pursuing your dreams. If you're serious about this, the people here will help you beyond your beliefs, and if someone calls your bluff, tell them you are funded by a grant from Nasa that even Wocketman doesn't have clearance to know about (Wocketman is a real Nasa Rocket Scientist that covertly pretends to be a cool RC jet jock).
I'm not a designer so I can't help you, but keep your head up, and listen to everyone and make your own mind up as to what is helpful and what is not.
Sean
Todd, first time in my life that I ever had that feeling (to be 15 again.................)
Of course, 18 was a pretty good year for me!
] but it must be a funny story.......
01-13-2004, 05:35 PM
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RE: ROTC project
Hey, just woke up.
In response to this being a BIG and CHALLENGING project I know.... trust me I'm not planning on doing this for a great while.
The PROJECT itself is just design but building and flying would be awsome.. so one day... who knows.
As for the funding side of it, I live in a small suburb of LA that is right next to JPL (NASA's Jet Purpulition Labratory in LA) and the only ppl living in my town are scientists, engineers and realestate agents.. so who knows... a grant from NASA might not be far off (lol)....
Before I made this post I had plans with my friend to go get some smaller RC planes and start working our way up to the big stuff so we might kinda know what its like.
Oh and thank god its not going super-sonic... that would be a complication
In response to this being a BIG and CHALLENGING project I know.... trust me I'm not planning on doing this for a great while.
The PROJECT itself is just design but building and flying would be awsome.. so one day... who knows.
As for the funding side of it, I live in a small suburb of LA that is right next to JPL (NASA's Jet Purpulition Labratory in LA) and the only ppl living in my town are scientists, engineers and realestate agents.. so who knows... a grant from NASA might not be far off (lol)....
Before I made this post I had plans with my friend to go get some smaller RC planes and start working our way up to the big stuff so we might kinda know what its like.
Oh and thank god its not going super-sonic... that would be a complication
01-13-2004, 06:23 PM
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RE: ROTC project
i'm not sure if you guys are getting the message here from the experienced fliers.
the reason there is a bit of sarcasm and reference to "being 15", is basically becasue the pilots/builders here know that what you have proposed is going to be virtually impossible for you. When i say virtually, it is figuratively speaking, as nothing is absolutely certain (see einstein's theory of relativity and uncertainty principle). But i'd bet with about 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999% certainty that this one wont happen.
there are aspects such as costs, materials, aerodynamics, parts, time, weight..and then the flying stuff...
i agree with other here about trying to just build a flying aircraft.
these posts are more a reality check then discouragement. Reality is something you'll need to apply in terms of assessing a project's feasibility when undertaking any engineering endeavour.
Many good ideas, even brilliant, have been harpooned by feasibility.
I mean, we could, live on the moon, or mars couldnt we.. we have the technology.
the reason there is a bit of sarcasm and reference to "being 15", is basically becasue the pilots/builders here know that what you have proposed is going to be virtually impossible for you. When i say virtually, it is figuratively speaking, as nothing is absolutely certain (see einstein's theory of relativity and uncertainty principle). But i'd bet with about 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999% certainty that this one wont happen.
there are aspects such as costs, materials, aerodynamics, parts, time, weight..and then the flying stuff...
i agree with other here about trying to just build a flying aircraft.
these posts are more a reality check then discouragement. Reality is something you'll need to apply in terms of assessing a project's feasibility when undertaking any engineering endeavour.
Many good ideas, even brilliant, have been harpooned by feasibility.
I mean, we could, live on the moon, or mars couldnt we.. we have the technology.
01-13-2004, 07:55 PM
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RE: ROTC project
I'm 16 with three years of experience........there is NO WAY i'm even ready for a ducted fan and you want two P120s?!?!!? Learn how to fly first before you even think about a jet and take the advice of these other experienced flyers on this post. Work your way up to it over many many years and many many crashes (which are inevitable). Building a simple rc aircraft is hard enough.
. Building a simple rc aircraft is hard enough.
01-13-2004, 08:22 PM
#20
RE: ROTC project
ORIGINAL: EekItsGoingFast
In response to this being a BIG and CHALLENGING project I know.... trust me I'm not planning on doing this for a great while.
In response to this being a BIG and CHALLENGING project I know.... trust me I'm not planning on doing this for a great while.
Well I stopped on and off over the years, but I just got my 2 P-160s for my new project. Never give up.
01-13-2004, 09:35 PM
#23
RE: ROTC project
[I'm 16 with three years of experience........there is NO WAY i'm even ready for a ducted fan and you want two P120s?!?!!? Learn how to fly first before you even think about a jet and take the advice of these other experienced flyers on this post. Work your way up to it over many many years and many many crashes (which are inevitable) . Building a simple rc aircraft is hard enough. ]
Hey... I'm 14 with 3 yrs of experience and I building my first df(TGA F-15). everything's possible...if its feesible lol. 2 P120's is a big jump from nothing to something.....
Hey... I'm 14 with 3 yrs of experience and I building my first df(TGA F-15).
everything's possible...if its feesible lol. 2 P120's is a big jump from nothing to something.....
01-13-2004, 09:54 PM
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RE: ROTC project
Im 12 and dream up stuff like that but always come up with the same two problems LoL. The FAA and the AMA. Trust me I know what they would do if they found out you were doing this . Because my dad works for a company that sells radars and ILS's to them!!! LOL
FAA and AMA ever thought of that? Trust me the are always their!
. Because my dad works for a company that sells radars and ILS's to them!!! LOL FAA and AMA ever thought of that? Trust me the are always their!
01-14-2004, 12:26 AM
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RE: ROTC project
Who says that the boys have to fly it. I am sure that one of our very capable jet guys would love to give it a chance on someone else's dime. Also what does AMA have to do with it?[>:] Just take it out to the salt flats and let it rip. [8D] Good luck guys. I hope you have fat trust funds, you are going to need them.
Also what does AMA have to do with it?[>:] Just take it out to the salt flats and let it rip. [8D] Good luck guys. I hope you have fat trust funds, you are going to need them.