Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

Guys,

Personally I'm using a Tritom charger.
Some of friend are not confidence of Tritom's quality, and for all the research I did, I believe is a good and quality devise.
Anyway, I decided to post this thread to ask your opinions about this.
My only complain with the Tritom is that only can handle one battery pack at the time.

Other things is that I never set up my Tritom to works on automatic mode. I consider is better to manually adjust you charge rates as per the battery pack to be charged....I noticed that other using Graupner or Chamaleon always used automatic mode.

Thanks in advance for jumping into this discussion [:-]

Regards,

Miguel

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

I find the automatic modes less adaptable to my charging needs than the manual mode which I can set for how I want to charge the battery. Sometimes the automatic modes are too slow, other times they are too fast and abusive to the battery.

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

Red,
That's the way I think after making some readings and be advised by you in the pass. But all mu friends in jets locally does not seems to undertantad that part an allways goes on automatic mode...[&o] cooking their packs.
I know you have a wide experience in this matter and would like to ask you to give a deeper explanation on this....I'm sure you probably had told the same thing 1000 times....
Also, what about chargers quality? can we compare triton with...a Chamaleon as an example?
Regards,
Miguel

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

It is difficult to compare quality of one charger over another without some meaningful input from a fairly large user base that hopefully can define exactly the nature of a failure. I don't have this data. As for automatic mode vs. manual there are many instances where automatic mode is adequate for the unsophisticated users, particularly those that don't have a clue as to what is going on with their battery. These are the same people that probably change out their battery packs on an annual basis "to be safe". Now we have jet pilots - the cream of modeling that know all and have the money to prove it. They are the people that automatic charging is designed for. Since I don't personally fly jets I am not qualified to even attempt to sway the way they manage their battery systems.

Glorfindel

I'm using Triton for about a year now and it's a great charger. I never use 'automatic' charge or discharge rate on ANY charger 'cause it's not always what you want and i dont trust that. Dont forget that the Triton can charge Li-po too If you have any question about it just ask.

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

I understand your point of view regarding making brand comparations.
Perhaps the right approach will be if each one of these bands are reliable to be used on over US$5,000.00 jet planes.
In my case I just want to know if I should jump into another brand with perhaps more quality...?
Regarding jets fliers attitude....my local friends does not act like that. Lets say they don't want to !QUOT!complicate their life!QUOT! and go with the easy way, which I do not share. I rather try to understand what I have in hand....
I also have a lot of friends in USA flying jets....that behave as regular modelers despite the cost of their plane. Some others dosen't. But is a attitude that we can find it also with propellers guy.
A jet plane basically have 2 battery packs: a 1250 Mah Ncad for the turbine and another the size you chose for the receiver. After each fly we choose to recharge both packs....the turbine takes about 500 Mamps to recharge, and the receiver's takes between 300~450 Mah aprox ( in my case my jet have 7 digital servos + 3 micros ...and you know the way these servos drinks amps...)
Miguel.-
++++++++++++

It is difficult to compare quality of one charger over another without some meaningful input from a fairly large user base that hopefully can define exactly the nature of a failure. I don't have this data. As for automatic mode vs. manual there are many instances where automatic mode is adequate for the unsophisticated users, particularly those that don't have a clue as to what is going on with their battery. These are the same people that probably change out their battery packs on an annual basis "to be safe". Now we have jet pilots - the cream of modeling that know all and have the money to prove it. They are the people that automatic charging is designed for. Since I don't personally fly jets I am not qualified to even attempt to sway the way they manage their battery systems.
[/quote]

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

Glorfindel,
I have a little more that a year using Tritom....I juts would like to know if I'm missing something??
Regards,
Miguel

sirrom

My Feedback: (4)

Miguel,
I was thinking of getting the triton charger myself for fast charging my Lithium Ion packs. I asked a couple of guys in my area who fly nothing but electrics and have alot of experience with fast charging Nicads, Nimh, Li-Ion, and Li-PO batteries. Everyone one of them I spoke with said that the triton is an OK charger for Nicads and Nimh packs but not for Lithium batteries. They said that it's peak detection for Lithiums is not very accurate. As far as the other types go the peak detection is somewhat better but they said that if they were to use it they would set the charge rates and the peak detection manually and not let it do it automatically.

They did recommend the Orbit charger for fast charging of all types of batteries.


Patrick.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Your guys with lots of "experience" obviously missed the fact that neither the Triton or Orbit (I have tested both and use both) have peak detection for charging lithium packs. These both use a constant potential - current limited charge algorithm. Meaning they charge at whatever current set until they reach a preset voltage (depending on the number of cells) at which time the current is gradually reduced while maintaining the preset voltage level. The Orbit employs a slightly higher voltage cut limit than the Triton with the result that it does take the batteries to a higher state of charge. The Triton takes them to around 90-95%, while the Orbit comes closer to 100%. There is a significant price difference in the two chargers.

sirrom

My Feedback: (4)

Red,
From everything that I have read about the Lithium type batteries is that the bulk of the charging that occurs is in that last 5-10%. I have read several columns about the lithiums that state that when charging them that it takes relatively little time to bring them up to 90-95% but that it is that last little bit that takes the longest amount of time. So if the triton is accurate to 90-95% isn't that kind of defeating the purpose of fast charging lithiums, since it can not bring them up close to the 100% mark?

Patrick.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

The Triton will bring them up to 90-95% as fast as any other charger. The jury is still out on whether you get better service life (more cycles) with a more conservative charge level. I'm inclined to believe you will see better life if you don't push the charge envelope hard.

Glorfindel

And with lithium you can charge it anytime, without worry about a complete discharge. And as miguel pointed out, no peak detecting with Triton on lithuim ( is there other way than that???) it do the job at consant charge

I realy think that Triton is hard to beat for price/quality

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

I have a SuperNova 250S (the one sold/made by FMA). It looks similar to the Triton in layout. Does anyone know if they are made by the same guys, just a different version of each other. The Triton appears more capable as I don't think the SuperNova can do Lithium anything. Thanks.

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

Red,
Which other brands works using the current limited charge algorithm? Is this way better than peak detection, right?
I understood the current limited charge algorithm you explained. What is its difference with Peak detection? Which way is more convenience for the batteries?
A 90 to 95% stage of charge can be consider standard among the chargers with current limited charge algorithm?
Any ideas of the voltage cut limit with Chamaleon Chargers plus others?
Sorry for asking too many questions...[:-]
Thanks,
Miguel

epc

My Feedback: (33)

Miguel:

Spend those chelitos and buy Li-ion Batts.


Your flying 6-7 or maybe 8k jets and you don't want to spend a couple of hundreds in good batteries .

epc.

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

Eduardo,
I do not mind charging my batteries after each fly, which is the way I do with my NiCads.
Under this scenario, the only advantage I see with Li-on is less weight, and anyway I need that weight to balance my jet...
The problem I had with my jet was because a hight amps drain by 2 servos....probably around 5 ~ 8 amps for a period of around 6 minutes....I beleave even a Li-on pack might have fail...letllig the voltage drop the way my Nicad did....right?[&o]
Also remember that I was using a the Redundant battery system from Electrodinamics, that by itself it consume 1.0 Volt ouf your pack....so my receiver was receiving whatever the voltage was at the pack minus 1 Volt....making the scenarion more critical. Besides, I would like to find my friend who recomended me to use that backer....[sm=pirate.gif]
If I were flying 3D planes like you are doing, for sure I'll be using Li-on....in order to save weight, wcich is critical on 3D's.
See you at HobbyLand my friend
Miguel

epc

My Feedback: (33)

Miguel:

Something you might consider:

Li-ion cells are rated @3.6v.

If I remember correctly you were using two packs in your jet for redundancy right?

If you use two 4400 or 3600 Li-ion packs you'll have a 4 cell pack that already has redundancy if one or even two cells fail because they are parallel connected.

And you still have the other pack/switch for double redundancy hope this helps.

Miguel after 4 flights My batts. take about 45 minutes of charge and they are ready to go.

Hope this helps , if you want to check them out give me a call I also have a couple of 2200 Li-ion that you can check them out.

epc

Glorfindel

Go to Greatplanes web site and download the Triton manual. It will explain why we cant use peak detection for lithium.

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

ORIGINAL: Miguel Santana

Red,
Which other brands works using the current limited charge algorithm? Is this way better than peak detection, right?

All brands of chargers used for lithium charging employ contant potential/current limited charging. (Except maybe the MRC 959 which is an UNCONTROLLED charge waiting to burn down someones house).

I understood the current limited charge algorithm you explained. What is its difference with Peak detection? Which way is more convenience for the batteries?

There are two basic charge techniques, one is for battery technology where the voltage rises during charge, then peaks and then starts to decline when the battery starts into overcharge and the gases developed recombine causing the heating which in turn causes the voltage to drop. Ni-Cd and Ni-MH fit this catagory. The other are what we would term "constant potential" systems. These essentially have NO recombination of gasses so there is no defined voltage peak. They are just charged to a preset voltage level and then the charge is terminated once the charge current drops to a low level.


A 90 to 95% stage of charge can be consider standard among the chargers with current limited charge algorithm?

Again, it depends on how conservative the charger designers felt at the moment. Some felt it was better to err on the safe side and set the voltage limit to something a bit lower than 4.2 volts.


Any ideas of the voltage cut limit with Chamaleon Chargers plus others?
Have not tested the Chamaleon, Orbit was close to 4.2 as are the Apache and Kokam offerings.

Sorry for asking too many questions...[:-]
Thanks,
You are welcome.

Miguel
[/quote]

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

A few more[8D]

There are two basic charge techniques, one is for battery technology where the voltage rises during charge, then peaks and then starts to decline when the battery starts into overcharge and the gases developed recombine causing the heating which in turn causes the voltage to drop. Ni-Cd and Ni-MH fit this catagory


Please confirm if Nicad and NiMh can be charge with the "constant potential" systems?

Have not tested the Chamaleon, Orbit was close to 4.2 as are the Apache and Kokam offerings

Why 4.2 volts? where that number comes from?

Besides, my initial concern was about chargers....so....can we conclude that Triton IS a good an realiable charger? In a scale from 1 to 5 how much you think it have? and Graupner?

Regards,

Miguel

Red Scholefield

My Feedback: (9)

Lt. Dan

My Feedback: (21)

I'm afraid I take a little bit of offense to your comment, Mr. Scholefield. I fly jets and electrics and I have a 'clue' as to what is going on with my packs. I suggest you get your hands on a Chamaleon charger and spend some time with it, you may be impressed. I use it to charge all of my batteries and I absolutely love it.

Before I go out to the field for the first flight of the day, I charge all my jet packs ( Two 2400 6V NiCads & 1 1250 7.2V NiCad) using the Chamaleon's automatic mode. I do this because in my experience, they receive a better quality of charge. The charger constantly adjusts its charge rate as it 'reads' the batteries state of charge. I have seen charge rates varying from several amps to less than 1/4 amp on the same batteries, depending on their charge state at the start of the charge cycle.

Using the automatic mode takes longer, but I get more flights out of my batteries charging them this way. Once I'm at the field and need to charge, I'll select a manual charge rate so I can get my batteries topped off in about 15 minutes each (vs. about 1 hour in auto mode).

The Chamaleon does not have an auto mode for LIon or LiPo batteries. I manually select a 1C charge rate for my LiPos and the Chamaleon will check the batter during the start of the charge cycle. A typical charge cycle on my 3S 2500 Tanic packs will start out with .15-.25A charge rate as the charger checks the battery, and then will ramp up to the 1C (2.5A) rate to bulk charge the battery. It will stay at this rate for approximately half the charge time, and then as the battery begins to peak, the charge rates start to come back down and will usually end with about 10-15 minutes of a low charge rate (perhaps .25A or less) to really get a good top-off on the battery at 4.2V/cell. This usually takes about 60 minutes to put about 1800mAh back into the pack.

In summary, check out the Chameleon, and please don't stereotype us jet guys, we're not all check book modelers.

rjbob

My Feedback: (8)

Hello Red,

I identify with Lt. Dan as I felt also felt a twinge when you referred to jet modelers as "know all" modelers. If I thought I knew everything about batteries/chargers I wouldn't be reading this thread. I'm in the market for a new charger and I didn't make a decision until I asked a lot of questions from many modelers and read much stuff on the subject.

Before I started looking for answers, I didn't even know this thread existed. And ironically, I've really learned more from your postings than most others. As a matter of fact, it was a jet modeler who led me to this link.

There are "check-book modelers" in everything from electrics to helicopters. But to stereotype jet modelers is not really fair. I've been building/flying model airplanes since 1959...it's my passion. I still fly control line planes as well as every kind of R/C I can think of. Yes, jets are expensive. So if I want to fly a jet I've got to come up with the cash...does that make me a "check-book"modeler?

Many of us have learned much from your battery/charger experience...I have. Maybe you can learn something from one of us, too.

Bob Edison

dbarrym

My Feedback: (47)

I too felt the same twinge (i.e. red haze) when I read "Now we have jet pilots - the cream of modeling that know all and have the money to prove it. They are the people that automatic charging is designed for...".

Then I realized who wrote it. I've seen this style of discussion before on the old Scale Aerobatics list 6-7 years ago. Back when pilots flying TOC size/style aerobats were the "checkbook pilots" and the topic was Ni-Cad vs. NiMH, chargers, 1st gen Duralites, etc....

Red has a way of irritating people (here's a perfect example) however he does know his batteries. Just read the technical content and ignore the rest.

Barry

Miguel Santana

My Feedback: (6)

Guys,
if you did not notice yet, this thread has a year old.....also Red don't hang around this forum. He jumped in back then cos I invited throught a pm
Anyway....what Barry is saying is the important thing.
If the hat dosen't fit you....just don't wear it and focus the issue.
Later,
Migue