F106A

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Hi everyone,
Anyone know the status of the JPO proposal? I heard from an AMA insider that the are "significat changes coming" regarding the waiver.
Did it get approved or is there something else coming?
Thanks,
Jon

Silver182

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My guess is there is more coming than any of us wants to hear! Hope I'm wrong -------

F106A

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Hi Lee,
I'm afraid you're right. One of his statements was that AMA, in the near future, is going "to get the turbines under control". I'm going to call AMA this morning, but I'm sure they won't tell me anything. Oh well, hope to have my waiver in a month, hope they don't do anything until then.
Jon

don b

When I talked to Dave Brown in June he indicated to us that the AMA was happy with the turbine rules as they are now and did not say that they had any plans to change things .
We asked about turbine waivers his reply was that it would stay the same as it is and felt that persons wanting a waiver should fly a airplane meeting the standards as outlined in the regulations. An aircraft capable of 150 mph w/ retracts flaps etc. probably a ducted fan jet or a war bird meeting standards

JPO does not rule the jet community so dont cry wolf yet

Don B

sideshow

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I'd better hurry up and do my waiver demonstaration flight.........it won't be with a DF OR a warbird....

BTW, I think the 150MPH rule is absurd....there aren't any "warbirds" (save turbine powered) that can do 150 MPH.....besides, 150 isn't a regulation, just a suggestion.....sorry, not trying to troll....just venting

AND

JPO may not "rule" (not sure how you define that), but they are well respected and we would do well to be unified in our voice.....

Bob

DavidR

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But you are not flying turbines yet so how can you truly say it is absurd? My Turbine planes all routinely fly in excess of 150 mph average speed (verified with jetcat speed sensors) with tops speeds measured the same way in the 230 mph range. How can you believe that being able to fly a 70-100 mph airplane will prepare you for these kind of speeds?

I do agree with you here. And as a matter of fact one of the biggest complaints that the AMA has voiced to JPO is that jet pilots are not unified. Some people in the past made JPO a political "arena" some of the same people when they did not get "their" way within the orginization decided that JPO was not worth working with. It's a shame, jet modellers are a small portion of the population of modellers and need the strength of numbers more than any other group.


My opinion..... allow the waiver flights with a 100 mph airplane, but with restrictions placed on the first turbine airframe. Most guys have enough common sense to know they don't need to try and go from a 100 mph airplane to a 250 mph airplane. But mandate that for at least the first 20 flights that they have an expereinced turbine pilot at their side. This in effect is what the new JPO proposal is designed to accomplish. All of us want to see more jet modellers, but I also believe the majority of us that attend a lot of events, and fly jets almost exclusively also appreciate the fact that there a re a few minor hurdles to jump that at least insure that an individual has the basic skills necessary to fly a high performance airplane.

David Reid

F106A

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Hi,
I hope you're right Don. The one thing I do know is that I'm not spending another penny on jets until I have the waiver in my hand. I've spent a lot of money all ready; bought two kits, accessories, retracts etc and I was getting ready o buy a turbine.
There's just too much uncertainty about what AMA might do, for me anyway, to spend any more until I get the waiver.
Jon

sideshow

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David...didn't we have this discussion once already?

I didn't write anything about an aircraft that flies at 70-100 MPH. Just because turbine powered aircraft CAN go in excess of 150.....are they necessarily required to do so? Do they all land and take off at 150? Your turbine aircraft routinely fly in excess of 150 because YOU FLY THEM in excess of 150, they don't just magically do it by themselves. Wouldn't a Bobcat be just as fun cruising around at 125? Or even at 100? It would be for me. Can't diamond dusts do almost 200?

Doesn't an aircraft that requires a speed limiter have to be set at a maximum of 200? Or are you under the .9 to 1 thrust to weight so the limiter is not required, you just use it for fun? How are you getting 230?

I applaud JPO for trying to be a positive influence. This facet of the hobby is relatively young, and I am hoping that they can guide the AMA in the right direction.

Bob

F106A

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Hi,
Has anyone done a study on how fast jets fly at meets. I know that AMA is fixated on high speed and think everyone wants to blow through the traps at 250+, but how many people really fly them at top speed. I went to the Liberty Bell meet and was surprised at the speed of the models, I thought that they would be much faster. A few were really honking, but for the most part they were around the same speed as a pattern ship. I just want to fly a scale jet with a turbine, outright speed is not an issue with me, but I know from David's posts that he really flys fast; is this typical of most jet fliers or are only a few going this fast.
Jon

DavidR

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Bob,

Yes a speedlimiter can be installed just for fun as well as for limiting the max speed of the airplane. The JetCat speed sensor is a lot of fun to play around with. Cruise control etc... great for formation flying with two similar airframes.

I know you didin't.....and I did not say you did. My comment is that most sport planes fly in this range. While you may not want to fly a jet at 150-200 mph you are in the minority. Yes a Bobcat is fun at 125 mph, but I think you will find most people, yourself incuded I am sure once you get a waiver want to go faster than 125 mph.



I don't believe it we have run a lot of them with various different pipe and engine combos through the JPO speed traps and have yet to see one much over 150-160 mph. What has this got to do with the waiver rules?

My Bandit at .9 to 1 will fly at around 250 mph. You are right though.... this has been discussed sooooooo many times!! No offense but get the waiver and get a little turbine expereince and see if you don't change your tune. Most of the complaining about turbine waivers comes from people without waivers. If you are a competent pilot you should have no trouble demonstrating it to one of the TCD's. The new JPO proposal is designed to try and help you get a waiver with a lower speed airplane, then get you the help that you may not even realize you need. (And I am NOT singleing you out!)

David Reid

Bandito

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Sideshow, arnt you the guy that intends on getting signed off on a Diomond Dust?????? Ray

Gordon Mc

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Nope - he's using a GP Patriot, which is what one of his local TCD's (me) told him to get.

Gordon

DavidR

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The patriot is a good choice. I think a lot of new guys are making this a whole lot more of a hassle than it actually is. Most of the TCD's are going to be just making sure that you are fully in control of your airplane. You have to ask yourself do I really want to be standing on the fightline or in the pits when a guy that has only excersiced his reactions at 100 mph or less decides he is ready to step up to a 200+ mph airplane? I don't!

DR

F106A

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"Most of the complaining about turbine waivers comes from people without waivers. If you are a competent pilot you should have no trouble demonstrating it to one of the TCD's. "

Hi,
The corollary to David, and other waiver holders comments that getting the waiver should be "no problem" or "should have no trouble"only come from waiver holders. Ask anyone trying to get their waiver if it's "no problem". Of course there a lots of problems: getting a plane, locating cd's, traveling to the, usually, distant field and the additional cost associated with the preceding. These subjects have been discussed here and on "The List" ad nauseum, therefore I don't want to get into them again. I know that to play the game I have to jump through AMA's hoops, which I will do, but to say it's "no problem", IMO, is not accurate. Oh well, hopefully in a month this will all be over.
Jon

sideshow

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Ray...see above post, what's your point anyway?

I fully agree with Jon and David, the whole waiver thing has been beat to death, but........

The only reason the non-waiver holders are the only ones having much beef with the waiver process is that the fully checked out guys don't have to worry about it. I wouldn't mind a stepping stone approach either (ala JPO) as long as it was practical and was truly helpful...not just to get some boxes checked.

That said, I really don't have anything bad to say about it as it is. I got the info and hooked up with some cool people who are almost falling over themselves to help. My TCD sent me his schedule (pronouned shed-dew-all ) for the next two months for crying out loud! He might even work me in while his in-laws are here...hmmmmm.......

I guess it can be like when you pledge a fraternity...it can suck while you are pledging...but its cool once you are in. Cut us pledges a break! I think we need a rush party!

What was this thread about?......Didn't I say I was done?......It's all good, keep up the banter


Bob

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

Jon, Bob,

The thing you forget is that current waiver holders have already jumped through the AMA hoops. Granted at the time I did it there were no TCD's but I still had to travel to several events to get my CD signatures. Aquiring the plane.... well are you not going to do that anyway? Most of us have a garage full of them! I am a TCD and have been more than willing to help anyone wanting to persue this path in the hobby but you have to realize that it takes some commitment from us as well. And with the new JPO proposal will increase our commitment to the new turbine guys as we will now have to see you fly twice.

DR

BTW it is well worth the effort that you have to put into it. You will leanr a little about these engines, and will learn some important safety procedures as well.

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

How did the "first" waiver guys get theirs? You told little about it but can you be a little more specific David? Gordon told me about how he became a TCD (I forgot though). What was the plankowner process?

Bob

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Bob,
The first waivers were obtained by just mailing in a form to AMA, no tests, checks, etc. After awhile, it started to evolve into something more than filling out a form.
I'm still kicking myself for not doing it then!

David,
My intent is not to criticize anyone. I, and I'm sure most wavier wannabe's appreciate the time and effort you, and others, put into helping us to do what's necessary to get us through the waiver process. It's the cavalier attitude of some waiver holders that "Hey it's no big deal", that torques me off. No big deal to them, they have it, it's a real big deal to me, I don't.
It's just have a feeling, and it's nothing more than that, that just as I'm ready to complete the waiver requirements, AMA is going to drop a bomb and negate everything and I'll still be on the outside looking in.
Back to my original post, has anyone heard anything "through the grapevine" about the JPO proposal? If you don't want to post, please e-mail me direct.
Thanks,
Jon

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

I don't know about all places, but around here, back in the day, you still had to get 2 CDs to sign you off.

Of course you could always look for a CD that would just sign off anybody, but you could do that now if you want, it is just a smaller pool of CDs to search from!

And back then (circa 1997) most everyone I knew was flying DF before turbines, so a lot of this debate was not happening at that time.

I remember back then there was even serious discussion that a Maverick did not meet the letter of the law!! Now we are talking about a Diamond dust which probably has a wing loading of something like 8-10 ounces a square foot....

My Bandit WL was about 58 and my Phantom is like 78 ounces a square foot!!

IMHO, the basic problem now is almost no one wants to fly DF everyone wants to go form ARF warbirds and such to Hotspots, etc.

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Matt,
You're right about the planes. The original D/F guys were the first into turbines, hence no problem with the plane. Now, the 2nd tier of guys want to fly turbines with no ducted fan experience and that's when the plane hassle started. We just don't have anything that would qualify.
That's why I hope AMA will go along with something like what the JPO suggested, although it will be too late to help me (hopefully I'll have my waiver!), but if it makes it easier for the next guy, that's great.
Another "conflict" I think is that we are trying to get more people into jets while AMA wants to limit jets. I'm not sure how to resolve that problem.
Jon

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

I started to think about what Jon said about the AMA limiting jets. I am not normally a big conspiracy guy. But the more I thought about it I'm not so sure that the AMA wouldn't be very glad to not have to cover turbine operations. It seems to me that all they see are big settlements due to turbine use. I don't anything or anyone associated with the AMA, but it's an interesting line of thought.................

Bob

S_Ellzey

To answer the original question, the JPO proposal should be sent in next week. I am putting the finnishing touches on the cover letter right now.

As to the concerns as to what the AMA is planning to do: I have heard stories that run from its going to get real bad to they are going to start treating turbines like any other engine. I can not conferm or deny any of the stories that I hear, and I try not to get to worked up until I hear something official.

Steven Ellzey
pres. JPO

F106A

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Steve,
If AMA makes any changes, pro or con, would they seek input from the JPO before it became finalized?
Jon

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

I just received my waiver about a month ago. My ground school training was with the AMT series of engines. When I received my waiver it said that I could operate ANY of the auto start turbines currently on the approved list. It specified that I could not operate the manual start variety, specifically naming all of the JPX family and the little Golden West turbine. (Which is ironic---these were the two turbines that I cut my teeth on before any such thing as a turbine waiver.) Didn't prior turbine waivers specify that you could only operate the turbine types that you were ground schooled on? If this is so, then it would appear that the AMA is leaning toward a "streamlining" of the turbine waiver system---perhaps making things easier for the potential turbine pilot but still requiring the necessary show of skills? Kevin

Bandito

My Feedback: (5)

Sideshow, I wasnt trying to make a point. I wasnt sure if you were the one so adament about a diamond dust or not , thats why I ask. I think the Patriot is a good choice. In my opinion a DD is an awefull choice. I can guarantee you I , like most TCD's hope the JPO proposal is looked upon favoribly and past. I agree its alot to deal with the way it is. I do also agree with David and others that the waiver is well worth the trouble to obtain. I love flying turbins and if I had it to do over again nomatter what it took I would do it to fly turbins. Man, wait till you land your first turbin solo------ THERE'S NOTHIN LIKE IT !!!! to me anyway.... Ray