john agnew

Does anyone else wonder, like me, how a Bobcat airframe gets to be £2,500 dollars? I have seen photographs of the Composite ARF factory with what sure looks like Kingcats stacked on a shelf and I would suspect Bobcats are made there too. If that is the case how come we can buy a Rookie for $600 and a Eurosport for $1400 and the BVM products cost 3/4 times as much are they built so much better in the same factory or is it down to eliteism and commercial greed.

I would love a composite Bobcat but there is no way I can justify that amount of cash, and it does'nt end there. The models are designed to accept BVM gear which is also top dollar again increasing the "go-fly" package to many times the cost of other airframes.
Surely someone else can offer us a twin boom sport model with a swept wing, all composite for a reasonable price.

I have pulled on my flak jacket ready for incoming from all the BVM fans but, what do the stiffs who have to watch their hobby dollars think?

John Agnew

hornet driver

My Feedback: (7)

ok john.....i`ll have a lash at it

and i will start with i am not a bvm`er....but i do know quality and i do know service....and i am smart and i do have good a deductive reasoning process so here goes

while at florida jets i witnessed approximately 1000 flights ......over 700 of which were bvm planes

i saw 4 planes have masive structural failure while in the air.....none of which were bvm planes

i saw experts land bvm planes like kittens....i saw experts yank`em like rag dolls and they just kept flying.....all day....then i saw rookies spank`em so hard on the ground i thought they were toast only to be back up in the air as soon as they were fueled....fact is...its built better than the rest.... period!!

again i say i am not a bvm`er...... but i would have to say if you told me i had to have 500 flights on a plane or you would take my first born....i can assure you i would choose a bvm plane....hand down

you can buy a chevy ...or....you can buy a cadilac...the choice is all yours!!

nuff said

hornetdriver

ps....with the weak dollar your hobby dollar goes farther today than yesteryear

Dave Wilshere

John

I really didn't know whether to answer or not-You have obviuously never looked into a BVM kit. You get a lot of expensive hardware that does not come with a Comp ARF kit. Everything is included...everything.
People like to buy cheap kits...tell everyone that it was X cheap and not say that they spent a fortune buying accessories to finish it.
Plus BVM are stocking kits and selling through a dealer net work-comp ARF manufacture the kits...

BVM stuff works, its not cheap...but its not expensive either. My BC composite was flown hard from flight #1 yesterday and all I had to do was fuel and charge it, same on my KC...

Dave Wilshere

john agnew

Dave

First of all I have a Super Balsa Bandit. It is a quality product no doubt. My kit arrived with one set of wing ribs missing , it took three weeks to get the missing bits so BVM is not perfect.I think you are over emphasizing the cost of extras to get another manufacturers kit in the air.E.g a UAT is £50 I bought a Graupner 6oz tank and an orbit clunk from you for £16. Ten minutes work and it does the same job. You can put a Rookie in the air for about £1100 plus turbine , how much did your Composite Bobcat cost to put in the air?

You sell both products, are you saying the Composite arf / Graupner product is poor quality?

I dont really have a beef with BVM scale stuff I just think Composite arf / Graupner or Skymasters could do a swept wing twin boomer for a much more reasonable price and I really don't understand why they are not making one given the popularity of that shape.

You convince your suppliers to do one i'll buy it from you!

John

Dave Wilshere

John

You are missing the point.
I think that the Comp ARF stuff is very good quality, the finish on the BVM comp stuff is the same...as you would expect from the same factory!
The stucture is more complicated on the BC-Do I think the Harpoon would stand up to the abuse I put the BC through yesterday? No.
Th point is not eveyone wants to buy a tank and clunk and make one, some people want to buy and go,
some people buy Merc cars, some buy Fords, I got rid of two Mercs and went Ford, I think its a better car for the money...but thats my choice, the Merc dealers were crap! If you had bought your Bandit kit from us you wouldn't of waited as long for your parts, but it would cost more.
The real point is that BVM serves a purpose, the five people who have bought BobCats this year were all happy to pay the price, if your not...
There are new models coming from manufacturers other than BVM, maybe there will be something you fancy.
This really is a pointless thread.

Dave Wilshere

Bob_B

My Feedback: (11)

John,
I recently bought a Composite Bobcat. I too wrestled with spending the money.
The price has long been forgotten, the completeness and quality of this model is fantastic.
The engineering of the landing gear mounting gives me the confidence that I will be able to fly off of the my local clubs grass field on a regular basis. The instruction manual is top notch and support is a simple phone call away. I think you'll be very pleased if you choose to buy one too!
Bob

erbroens

That´s a quite fair price to pay if you don´t want to bother with CG estimates....

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Cent...2710673/tm.htm


Rgds, Enrique

john agnew

Enrique

The CG calculation for the Boomerang Intro worked perfectly. The model flies great. Manufacturers recommendation much too conservative!

John Agnew

Wayne22

My Feedback: (2)

My 2 bits worth....

Its a free market. BVM can charge what ever he wants. If people are lining up to buy his products, all the power to him.

Fortunately, there are lots of options for those without really deep pockets.

Shaun Evans

Dave,

If it's so pointless, why write such an elaborate response? I think it's asenine to call someone's else thread pointless because you don't necessarily agree with the premise of it.


John,

Your questions are niether pointless nor without merit. I don't think it's a question of greed, however on BV's part. Are his products good? You bet. Are they the best available? They are in many cases, but not in all. Is a BV product better than a similar one built right next to it? We use our commons sense. Fact is, though, BVM has built a reputation, and a following such that if the price doubled, it probably wouldn't make much difference. He has built a company that has a brand-name power such that simply putting his sticker on any kit makes the kit suddenly worth a bunch more money in the minds of the consumers that buy them. I, for one, think that's COOL! As a small-business owner, I wish to goodness I could accomplish that. As a staunch capitalist, I think what he is doing is fantastic.

hornet driver

My Feedback: (7)

shaun



well said


gregg

john agnew

Shaun

Thanks for your considered response. My first ducted fan was a Yellow F16 which was a great kit and reasonably priced too!

I don't have anything against BVM charging what they want for their product, I just want to see someone else produce a Bobcat / Kingcat type at a reasonable cost for we impecunious types!

I guess Composite ARF won't be doing one anytime soon if they are sub-contracting to BVM?

John

Shaun Evans

John,

I must say that I did pretty well in English class, so it's not very often that I have to go to the dictionary. IMPECUNIOUS. You sent me to the dictionary on that one!

It's funny you mentioned the F-16. That's a case-in-point for a couple of points in a discussion like this. That airplane was my first real experience at being able to do a side-by-side comparison between two apples/apples products. I began construction on a Yellow F-16C back in '97. At that time, I was managing a hobby shop. A customer ordered a BVM F-16, which had a pricetag of more than double that of the Yellow. My first thought was, "For this amount, there had better be two F-16s in this box." Before the customer arrived to pick it up, I took the opportunity to open the boxes and go through the kit. I spent about an hour picking though it, and when I was done, I went right home and put my Yellow up for sale. Then I bought the BVM one, complete with gear and cylinders. It was no small amount, especially for how much money I was making at the time. I had not yet been bombarded by all the hype, finger-shaking and ferocious brand-loyalty, I had simply seen the two products, side-by-side, and had made an informed decision that the money wasn't wasted on the BVM F-16 kit. Now, that's the FIRST case-in-point.....

Later, the Yellow F-16 kit was redesigned. The new was simply a better kit than the BVM one in 9 out of 10 categories. I brought that to light on the old RC-Online site when it first came out, and talk about 'flak jackets'! I got more shrapnel over those statements and comparisons (most, interestingly enough, by people who had never built either kit) than you can imagine. At the end of the day, however, a few photographs and a few in-person inspections quieted that storm. Now, the big comeback by the mouth-foamers of the time was that the Yellow was made offshore by slaves somewhere, so it would make sense that the superior kit could be priced at HALF of what the BVM one cost. What's the point? Someone absolutely could go build a sport jet of that design, with all the fancy materials, that's absolutely as air-worthy and durable, for half the money. Thing is, even if someone did, a lot of people would still buy the BVM one because it reads "BVM" somewhere on the box. That's the miracle that the man performs to this day. As long as he's able to collect the greenbacks for something he designed or pioneered, then there's only congratulations in order.

john agnew

Shaun

Thanks again for your informative contribution. Maybe its time I closed this down. It would appear from the response that absolutely no one in the jet community wants to buy a swept wing twin boomer all composite model for half the price of the BVM versions. I must say I am very surprised!

In conclusion if there is ever a jet modellers hall of fame then surely uncle bob will be the first inductee!


Kindest regards
John Agnew

erbroens

That´s not quite true... we got this one by 1/5 of the price of a Kingcat. the problem is that it is not for sale and I have to figured it out alone, and at my own risk!

Best regards, Enrique

mikehannah

John
If it is any consolation I happen to agree with you.
I have never seen a BVM kit in the flesh but as someone who has to fight for every one of his hobbies pounds sterling I have trouble with the phrase " IS IT REALLY WORTH IT".
I would love a Bobcat, I would really love a Bandit. But I doubt I will ever own one because of the price.
It is a shame that they stopped making the Balsa version of the Bobcat I might have gone for that.

Perhaps it is a Scotsman thing.

Mike

ps For Mr Wilshere benefit I hate Fords with a passion, and I wouldnt part with my SAAB 95 for all the money in china not even a Compsite Bobcat but that is his right and I would not decry it and I would be the first to defend his point of view . OR maybe that is another pointless thread for another time.

john agnew

Enrique

Nice looking model! Is there a hint of Hotspot in its family tree?

Mike

Saab 95 great car had the estate couldnt afford 25mpg and 25k miles a year!

John

erbroens

Yep, it is closely related,the fuse is from a Hotspot. wings are redesigned in planform and wingspan but they use the same airfoil of the HS. the fins are the same HS but extended and double walled at the bottom and the elevator is build up... a blast to fly!


Rgds, Enrique

john agnew

Guys

Here's one for twin boom fans. Jetco from Paf-flugmodelle.de. in Germany.

64" span for 7-12lb turbines, obechi sheeted foam wing, composite fuz / booms , will take 1.5ltr tank + hopper in fuz.

Have just ordered one for my Wren 44. Kits available from stock 390 euros delivered to UK.

John Agnew

Tom Antlfinger

My Feedback: (24)

John:

Currently in my hangar, I have BVM planes, HS, Boomerang, Isobar, SJ-16, C-ARF ES, Skymaster F-15, some I have built myself, other's I had built, and some are used beaters...... so I don't consider myself a BVM sycophant....but dang, I love their stuff......the Hun that Ian Richardson built, and Mitch Weiss's Hun that Ali Machinchy picked up are truly museum pieces, and they started with one hell of a kit design and production.......

It is important, IMO, to visit the BVM facility in FL before trying to understand his pricing......Unfortunately, I had to miss FJ 2005, but spent the week prior Friday afternoon at BV's shop, my 3rd or 4th trip there......as usual , I was greeted by a friendly crew, although you do have to call ahead, as no walk-ins are allowed.....just keeps his large candy store of models he uses at FlyIns and stored in his showroom from tiny people's hands......also helps keep his employees busy, not answering too many spectator queries, like..."Is that a real jet engine" or "Do these toys really fly?"

BVM is a solid American business operation, built by one of the shrewdest heads in this hobby....which happens to be be why he has survived.....BVM is not a garage or basement operation.......I have seen them all....here today, gone tomorrow, no spares, kits that are either bad designs, bad manufacture or both......been doing this hobby since 1950 and R/C since 1967.......the money I have spent on crappo kits and accessories like landing gear is well into the thousands of bucks over the last 35-40 years.........I am saving it all in a big box, and hopefully my great-great grandkids might get a few bucks for it on Antique Road Show in 2075......

Bob employs about 20 people, all highly skilled individuals in the various areas of CAD design, prototyping, moulding, machining, CNC wood routing, assembly of bits like landing gear, packaging, etc. David Shulman does allot of the office office work along with Bob's lovely daughter Patti, her Mom, and another gal.....in addition, as those who attended FJ 2005 saw, BVM spends large money, agreed, part of the advert budget, going to several meetings during the year, helping guys set their planes up, doing maiden flights, and most recently buddy-boxing even his heavy iron like the F-100D......read Cash Flow........

Whenever I have been at the shop, the place is buzzing with activity from 8 to 5, 5 days a week......all these employees receive a benefit package in addition to salary......all of this tucked into a very large building that is stuffed with nothing but high end equiptment, from design computers to very large CNC router and innumerable smaller machine and woodworking tools......read Cash Flow......

I have heard the cost of this operation on a monthly basis from Bob himself, and it is rather staggering.....And up till recently, all this was done by American workers, demanding about 10X the salary and benefits of similar work force in Thailand or China......as BVM competitors began to use inexpensive foreign workers, it became obvious that BVM would have to rearrange it's priorities in this Jet World of ARF everything, and along came the hugely successful, joint-venture KingCat.....as with all of BVM's productions, it was done right from the start.......I saw BVM's upgrade to Tam's Supa Hornet when I was there.....Tam and Bob have done a superb job, bringing a reasonable build F-18 to market, to compete with the already well-received SM F-18......

I built my pre-painted KC in about 100 hours and used a sanding block or file no more than 10 minutes total time during the entire build......comparing that to other planes that have graced my hangar, incluing Avonds F-15, Plane Plus F-15, HotSpot, Kangaroo, FC Eurosport, IsoBar, Boomerang there is no comparison.....the only kits that even came close were Tom Cook's JMP kits like the Starfire, Hustler, and Firebird......I recently bought a popular non-BVM kit......missing nose gear door and damaged instrument panel decal......Ahhhh! No spares right now.....when will I see them??......Ahhhhh! Don't know for sure......can't tell you how often I have heard that bulls**t line the last 40 years......

BVM charges allot for the accessories, but so does every other successful American aftermarket supplier......I note on my annual stockholders report that aftermarket parts and branded clothes far outstrip new motorcycle sales for the hugely successful Harley-Davidson Motor Company.....as well as the myriad other accessory shops for cycles, cars, and even full scale planes.........

And the final BVM product, both in the sport jet arena, and most conspicuously the Scale Arena is simply superb......anyone that has spent any time looking at the design & construction of the Rafale, F-100D/F, F-4, and new F-86 has to impressed by the beauty of the design and manufacture and the superb, though at times challenging for the novice, scale flight characteristics......and all of this requires cash flow.......any guesses what the development costs were on the new F-86 before he sold even one....if you want to guess, start with 6 figures and then some......

If BVM stuff fit's into one's disposable income availability, go for it....if not, then I guess some suffering and tears may be in order, just as I feel when my neighbor drives up in a Porsche Turbo and his wife in Lexus 430, while we drive an old Dodge Caravan and a Dodge SUV.....[]

So, that's my stump.......time to call that guy again about my gear door and panel, now that he is back from the big dance in Lakeland....[:@]...and then call BVM for a few accessory bits I need to complete my latest BVM build....should have those by Thursday......

Tom


And don't believe just any old Yankee capitalist.....lot's of Crown dudes have graced the BVM premises the last few years....give them a ring.....

diceman

My Feedback: (10)

There have been a lot of folks who have believed that BVM was not for them. Was it cost or not I can't say. Many of these folks have either left the sport because they got tired of dealing with kits that had a lot of junk in them that had to be replaced, pieces that didn't fit or many other problems. Many have come to or back to BVM to avoid those problems.

BVM stuff works, it's well engineered, flys well and gusee what? If you took the frustration value from the BVM package, it's likely less expensive that about nayuthing else out there. Quality sells and there is a reason for that, you know mate!!!

Good luck wth what ever you choose.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

But John - I thought your earlier post said you wanted an ALL composite twin-boom model ? If not, isn't there a guy in your own back yard that's selling kits that look kinda like a Bobcat but aren't ? I forget his name, but the model is called something like the "IAD Serpent".

Gordon

Ron Stahl

My Feedback: (12)

I always think of the sign that was in my house builders office when discussions like this come up it read. "The sweetness of of a lower price will fade long before the sour taste that is left in your mouth from poor quality, unfinshed work and lies from substandard contractors. Buy quality if you can afford it it is sold here." I never forgot that quote and think of it everytime I buy something from BVM. I do own other companies planes only becase BVM didn't make a version of it, Like my Yellow F-15 nice kit but surely not BVM quality. I got what I paid for and so do you when you decide that a lower price is worth the differance in what comes after the sale is done.

john agnew

Gordon

I have owned an IAD Serpent and its an excellent model> I just don't have time to build and paint one that size at the moment.

My point really is why is no one else competing in that sector of the market? I accept that what all the guys say about BVM is valid but his models are not for everyone. It just would be nice to have a choice of ARTFs of that type.

John

Shaun Evans

You're right. I have yet to see a BVM plane with that kind of surface detail. You got what you paid for? I think you might have gotten a little more than you paid for if you're making comparisons .....