Edgar Perez

My Feedback: (13)

In the recent WJM 07 threads, its mentioned that roll & pitch gyros are now required to have good scores. I'm familiar with the value and behavior of yaw (rudder) gyro, but never had used gyros in aileron or elevator. What is the behavior of the plane with them fitted? Are there any undesirable effects? What about impact on acrobatics? Any benefit for a sport flier in using them?
Thanks

davo580

as far as i'm concern it is not good .. I won't say what i think it is... I have been taught to fly with out them .. it takes more of a pilot to fly with out them.. they nearly take the enjoyment of flying out.. people should learn to fly without them and they would be better for it will make better pilots

Skymac

My Feedback: (8)

Well its not that they don't know how to fly without them, but its hard to fly agaisnt someone when they have a chip on board and you don't, lol.. But I do agree, they shouldn't allow them...

Airforce7

My Feedback: (31)

On the sport side, I've flown a Hanger 9 F4U with gyros on the alerions and the elevator and I didn't like them. It changes the way you think about flying to some degree. The load you put physically on the stick goes down, which to me takes the feel of flying the plane away because it's so stable. Also, if you over sensitize the gyro they will work against the control function meaning the wings (alerion gyro), for example, will waggle flying perfectly level. Having a switch to turn the gyros off in flight is a good thing during the first exploritory flights. The gyro on the rudder is great for takeoffs for sure, but with practice you can physically steer the jet down the runway yourself and save some $ and setup time.

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

But doesn't your argument also apply to so many aspects of our modern radios ?

Mixes can be used to minimise undesirable control side effects - it takes more of a pilot to fly without them, so they should be outlawed.

Exponential can be used to make a pilot's flying look smoother - it takes more of a pilot to fly smoothly without it, so it should be outlawed.

Same for flight modes, rates, etc., etc.

Also, since the WJM is also about building, not just flying ... it takes more skill to mechanically set linkages up exactly correctly with the old non-computerised radios, so we should outlaw programmable endpoints, matchboxes, etc., etc ...

I do understand some of the concern that is being voiced, however the decision about where to draw the line as to which electronic aids are acceptable is highly subjective, because what is an advanced aid to one guy is just "normal" to another.

Gordon

modtron

So what's the problem then?

After all, the objective is to fly the scale model in as scale a manor as possible, so any assistance has to be worth looking into.

Remember, we are flying miniatures in full size air and you cannot scale air !

The use of gyro's is not limited to just one type of person, they are openly available for everyone to use.

From experience, we have found that the use of gyro's is well worth the effort.

We are using them on all axis - Aileron, Elevator & Rudder / Noseleg.

They are not a fit and fly item, they do take a some setting and adjusting to get right. But when sorted, they are definately worth it.

modtron
Oxford UK

erbroens

I experimented with them some years ago on the pitch axis with a prop plane and they definetively worked well.. one of the main benefits I experienced was much more stable landing approaches and easy landings.

However I stopped the experiment when I added too much gain and the airplane experienced wild pitch oscillations at high speed. The system gyro gain-servo inertia simply couldn´t respond at the correct time and it started to amplify the oscillations instead of dampening them... it was pretty scary. The problem was that a lower gain, the gyro wouldn´t stabilize the airplane at low speeds as much as it could.

The ideal setup would be a gyro with some kind of speed sensor attached to it regulating the giro gain .. or better yet, a full controller with some flight rules written into , based on the model reactions in the flight envelope.


Enrique

SinCityJets

Another potential problem is that it may mask a stall until it is too late. A lot of the indicators we look for to pre-empt a stall can be hidden until the stall occurs.

Other than that, I agree that it is no different than using a mix on your radio. How much money do you want to spend?? Sky's the limit (pun intended).

Skymac

My Feedback: (8)

Lol...

Whos gyro can fly a straighter line, sounds fun.

JET FX

Seriously, Gordon makes a good point.... At WJM, TopGun, World and National Scale Championship level competition there maybe should be further consideration for % point reduction in total flight score for each gyro equipped control function????

At Top Gun for instance I think there is a % point score reduction system already for pre-built composite kits (wings?) as opposed to built up or own designs. Why not similar system being incorporated for any given models added flight aids beyond current technology Tx's that are not equipped with self correcting flight gyro systems........as they ARE coming!!!
(I think Wetronics Rx's already have gyro opitions correct?)

The way I see it using gyros for flight controls, steering in competition is the same as entering a pre-fabricated composite airframe is it not? now that is reflected in total static point scores for models pre-fabricated by manufacturer as opposed to built up airframe constructed by modeller (or it should be I reckon).... Its sort of hard to draw the line I know?? as scratch built should be awarded higher scores also etc.
To me personally its pretty sad to see the rules or lack there of being interpreted/manipulated etc etc at the highest level as it seems not to trully reflect who is the best builder and pilot.... So whats to stop someone from entering the next world level comps or WJM's and use a complete flight preprogrammed auto pilot system from take off through landing with near zero Tx pilot imput other than flipping a switch or two! Would they receive point % flight score reduction? Seems to me to be heading that way if theres not some serious debate very soon about limiting the extent of accepted self correcting flight/steering aids or at very least a % point score reduction should maybe be mandatory if gyros are fitted OR even create a seperate class altogether. Theres got to be serious discussion about the way things are heading IMHO....

Cheers- Marty

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

I don't know if they are still made but I used to use a dual gain gyro on my old ducted fan BVM T-33...The gain was mixed to the retract switch. When the gear was down I had it adjusted for more gain than with the gear up...A compromise for low speed and high speed situations. Perhaps the dual gain gyro could be mixed with the throttle....

Kevin

SinCityJets

Most modern day gyro's have fully proportional remote adjustments aka via a dial on the transmitter. The only problem is it eats up another channel. Shouldn't be too much of a concern on the new 12X or the bigger Futaba's

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

Can it be mixed so that you can automatically increase or decrease gain as the throttle is manipulated??? With the old dual gain gyro you could mix it with a channel like the retracts so that with the gear down you had more gain than with the gear up...I would want this to be automatic as I wouldn't want to adjust the gain during flight with a little knob...A slider would be OK but I still wouldn't want that extra distraction in flight...

Kevin

SinCityJets

Kevin,

Im sure that could be done....unfortunately, when it comes to mixes, a crow set-up is a big task for me!

erbroens

that´s exactly what I done... I had set the low gain 20% above half throttle stick, and 45% gain from half throttle to idle. However with a jet this time I would prefer to use the landing gear switch to select the gain values, like you done.

About the point reduction for using them in a scale competition is a complicated subject IMO.. A full scale F-16 uses gyros, so points should be added for a model F-16 using them?

Anyway, gyros act as shock absorvers, they didn´t make the plane fly by itself. Like shock absorvers in a car, they could potentially make a safer model. However a lot of work in this area is needed to extract the full potential of them.

Enrique

Trundle

I'm afraid that i disagree

I think that there is a line in between mixes, endpoints, dual rates and gyros. you can program as much of that as you want but still it will not fly your plane for you. You may use a mix to iron out an unwanted side effect of another control surface but it cannot keep your plane steady without some sort of input from the guy behind the Tx. The gyro sits up in the plane senses an unwanted movement without any control input from the ground and corrects it without the pilot doing anything. I believe that this is a lot more automated than using a mix and that computerized radios should be allowed since they basically save the pilot a lot of time in setting up their model and allow more than 1 control movement with 1 stick movement but gyros should not be allowed in competition because then it is the best gyro that wins and not necessarily the best pilot (well possibly the most cashed up pilot).

Likai

Be an engineer, competition is not just only for skillfull pilots but for technoledge too. If we want a pilot-skill only competition, the best way is every pilots to use all same spec planes and the competition will be boring.
About the cost of gyros, I think even all axis using gyros, compare to the total cost of a competition jet, they are nothing!

TommyWatson

My Feedback: (1)

No one seems to have answered your questions fully.

I have a Weatronic RX in my Reaction 54. I would like to try the Gyro function on Ailerons (thats the way I have it mounted).

My questions are, Say you are in a banked turn, will the gyro keep the angle of bank steady? or if I am wings level on final, will it stop roll movements due to wind?.
How about during a roll (slow roll, fast roll or point roll), what is the effect?.

I will try it soon, but I would like to hear someones experience.

I have experienced the effect of too much gain on a fast pattern model. It was on the rudder and it got into a yaw oscilation at high speed if Ihad too much gain.

Any comments from gyro users on jets?

Regards

Likai

In fact, gyro doesn't know where is level, it just keep plane not rolling with the axis(pitch, roll and yaw) that it controls. If you use heading lock mode with sufficient gain, the plane will keep in the same banking angle that you input at the entrance of turn utill you move stick again. It is very useful in knif-edge, you almost no need any aileron correction.

davo580

still gyros are good for some things but still beleive it is the pilot that should control any strange eddities that should be controlled by the pilot... that's why we fly so we can better ourselfs at controoling our planes and the public can say gee he flys very good

davo580

i fly my jets with out any gyros not even on the noseleg i can control and fly my jets very smoothly with out gyros

john agnew

Having just returned from the WJM it is my understanding that most of the large Skygate Hawks entered by the German and Swiss teams were gyro stabilised on all three axes. I watched these models fly many times and they certainly maintained straight and level flight with remarkable consistency. Most of them also chose to fly very conservative flight schedules with mostly baseline options i.e. slow flight clean, inverted flight, horizontal rolls and knife edge flight with procedure and derry turns to reverse direction. I do not know if they chose these options because they obtained maximum gyro assistance in these maneuvers and the gyros would not have been as effective in vertical maneuvers or whether the models were underpowered for vertical options.

These models all scored very high flying marks but, as a spectator while being able to appreciate the smoothness of the flight I though the performance of these models was not scale. They were far too slow to represent the real thing, in some of the turns into wind the models slowed down to what appeared to be walking pace and the landing speeds were ridiculously slow with roll out of less than 50 metres. However, they certainly seemed to impress the judges which is , after all, the object of the exercise.

I understand research is currenty underway to produce a receiver which will fly the model in a gyro stabilised racetrack pattern in the event of a failsafe occurring so the idea of programming your flight and pressing a button does not seem so far fetched!

John

Trundle

also i dont know if this has been brought up yet but having gyros on all 3 axis of your plane in a competition will level the field pretty quickly. The normally outstanding pilots who can fly their jets very well without gyro assistance will not stand out as much if at all compared to those who heavily rely on their gyros but can perform almost as if just as well as the better pilot with the use of gyros. Don't get me wrong I think that using gyros in your plane is fine but I think that in very high level competition such as the jet world masters the flying should be left up to the pilot instead of the gyro to make sure that the best pilots stick out and that the best pilots win.

JET FX

Well not really, the theory of all scale R/C model aeroplane competition is and always has been that he who is the "best builder" and the "best flyer" should generally come out on top. How is it boring if flying comes down simply to the pilots skill?? Especially if the weather ie 'cross wind' enters the equasion. Its not the cost of the gyros its the principal nothing more nothing less as far as I am concerned anyway...

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Sorry, but I have to agree with Likai .. watching 100 guys fly the exact same sequence with the exact same model would be mind-numbingly boring.