Spartan Missile

I joined the JMA at the AGM this year, and as per rules, was not allowed to attend the AGM(2005) meeting itself.
However, I understand that a new achievement scheme for turbines was discussed.

Will it be like:

"B" wings PLUS turbine operation, maintenance and safety
or
"C(AE)" wings, which is quite a tough aerobatic schedule that even some "B" wing holders might not aspire to.

If it's the latter, I might as well put all my jet stuff on e-bay right now.


Anyone care to elaborate ? as there's nothing on the BMFA or JMA websites regarding this.


Thanks,

Jules.

mikuk

Hi, I put the query on the St Athan thread re the C ticket for turbine models, quite simply because this was mentioned (as a C not J) in my BMFA local area newsletter (Mid West) plus nothing seems to have been heard since the AGM. If you look at the schedule for the B then I believe this is impractical for jets, I for one am not about to deliberately spin a scale jet.
As was discussed at the JMA AGM I think you will find this is more turbine operation oriented ie. safety issue with which I agree and a somewhat limited flight manouevre envelope. Anyone else know more?

Minch

Hi all,

I am an Area Chief Examiner and I have no more information than you, nothing seems to be filtering down, not even proposals. I did have a few issues with the proposed tests as outlined at the JMA AGM but wanted to wait until I saw an official proposal before passing further comment.

Nick

siclick33

What authority does the JMA have to introduce a 'waiver' system?

Is the BMFA likely to introduce a test suggested by a seperate organisation? How would this work in practice? What about SAA members flying in England (or vice versa). I agree with the principle of some sort of waiver system but surely it has to come from the BMFA and not the JMA?

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

afaik there is no talk of a turbine waiver in the UK. The USA seems to need it in order for their insurance to apply to jets. In the UK there is no hint of the BMFA's insurer requiring any special conditions for jets. The only things I have heard talk of for jets are voluntary achievement schemes like the existing BMFA certificates. That talk seems to have come from the jet community wondering if there should be a BMFA achievement scheme for jets, rather than the BMFA proposing it. Indeed the BMFA seems distinctly cool on the whole idea, they are not pressing for any certification or regulation of jets at all. I have not heard anything that should cause worry amongst UK jet fliers.

H

JohnMac

As chairman of a jet club I have mixed feelings about the need for any extra tests for jet pilots. I see all sorts of things being done at the club and very few of them have to do with the flying skills of the pilots. However we do have issues to do with the build of the models and the installation which is why every new model needs to be scrutinised by two experienced members before it can fly. We have regularly sent pilots home with models unflown due to spotting things that we are unhappy with, and we usually get thanked by the pilots for potentially saving their models. The ignorance of best practice in jet models is a serious danger IMO.
Equally, I have seen pilots at public shows who cannot fly properly. How did these guys get their "B" rating in the first place? Equally, I know of at least one very competent pilot who was refused his "B" cert. I watched the test. He did it perfectly. The examiner is known to dislike jets and their pilots. The idea of giving this examiner extra powers to hit us with is scary. I would resist this with to my last breath. Do not assusme that certification schemes are operated in a fair and equitable manner. They are not.
We regularly have to deal with operational problems. Pilots who don't yet have the skills to operate a turbine safely, or fail to follow the clubs operating code. EG: We have a safety fence to protect pilots and helpers from models vering off on take off. Of course if pilots followed the rules, the take off run would commence in a position such that the model could never swerve into the pits area.
We have pilots who could pass any aerobatic test you threw at them but need to be watched because their natural exuberance and self confidence leads them to regularly do things that leave them with zero margin for error, so any kind of failure will result in disaster.
We have several safety officers in the club plus the commitee and we just have to stay aware of what is going on.
How will a new aerobatic test resolve these issues? What is needed is better education since most of the issues are down to ignorance than anything else.

Geoff White

Agree 100% with what you say John. I am speaking from a position of ignorance as I have no idea what is being discussed but I think if a new certification does arise then it shoudn't concentrate on whether you are able to do a one roll, rolling circle, for example. Instead it should concentrate on whether the person being tested in competent to operate gas turbines planes safely, a large portion of with has nothing to do with your aerobatic prowess. As to how this is achieved in a test environment is open to discussion.

Dave Wilshere

Geoff and guys

All the certificates are designed just to show that a pilot is safe-nothing to do with whether he will be a future F3a champion...many examiners miss this point.

Regards

Dave Wilshere

Geoff White

Agreed Dave.

jason

My Feedback: (1)

Yes I agree with Dave too. IF the "J" cert ever comes about it should simply be a "bolt on" addition to the B cert to show that the pilot of a gas turbine model knows how to operate it and what makes it operate safely and also appreciates the dangers and consequences of what can happen if things go wrong. Flying standards above the "B" in my opinion would of course be nice but certainly not a requirement.

Jason

HarryC

My Feedback: (1)

Testing for a certificate is a particular answer to a particular question or problem. You can't answer a question that hasn't been asked, so a certificate without a clearly defined purpose is of no real value to the model flying community. I agree wholeheartedly with John Mac - a certificate proves that you can, not that you do! Just think of 17 year old boys who pass their driving test and then afterwards drive in a way that would fail them instantly. A style of constant, professional self-regulation by your peers such as John describes at his club can be much more effective at setting and maintaining standards. It sounds very good John.

But the question is - "what is the question?"! What problems have we got that we are trying to solve? Indeed have we got any problems to be sorted at all? What are we trying to make different to what it is now, and why? When we have clearly defined those questions and answered them, the solution will make itself clear. It might be tests and certificates but it might show that something else entirely different is needed, if anything is needed at all.

H.

djindivik

Jules, You're a Muppet !

Spartan Missile

Which one ? [:-]

"J" Wing Examiners from Hell.
(Any similarity to current examiners is purely coincidental )

djindivik

You can have all the rules & regulations you want, all the certificates you need, A, B, C, J, or Golden, jewel encrusted jet wings,But It wont stop the idiot who knows better than everyone else, from going to a local field & flying his new turbine model like a prat. You see them every day on the roads. Ray

JONATHAN G

the next thing must be the p test for petrol any one who flys petrol should take a new test my be some off the bmfa should take some off the new test lets start with chris bromley with his a and b test and then may he can set the standarad for the new jet test regards jetman

jason

My Feedback: (1)

JULES,

YOU ARE NEITHER OF THOSE BUT MISS PIGGY IS CLOSER!

Spartan Missile

I guess we'll hear more at the JMA AGM March 2007.

Jason & Ray, I know where you live !
Prepare to receive 40 tons of gravel on your drive.